For free will believers out there

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
God, by the miracle of the incarnation, never demoted Himself in any way. For in the nature of God, He cannot stop being God.

God incarnated Himself into a microscopic cell or a full grown man?

Microscopic cell? As I said, I would not know how a miracle is done. What I know is that He did not come as a full grown man, but that He incarnated by way of being born miraculously of the virgin Mary.

Tong
R2335

 

[Wrangler]

No, he was saying "you are my Lord and my God".

Except he never actually said that. He never said this is your nature, you are, etc. Again, what he said was an exclamation, like holy cow!


Thomas answered Him, “My Lord and my God!”
John 20:18

 

[Behold]

Good, tell that to Wrangler.

There is a certain type of ...........well, they claim to be a Christian, but, they are "suspect"
The reason is, God is the revelation, and He reveals, and He never stops.
So, if a person who is born again, has not evolved in their understanding of spiritual matters, or moreso, if they are locked into about 3 verses FOR LIFE.....and can only talk about, maybe 2-3 subjects, ENDLESSLY..... and one of them is...>"lose your salvation", and the other is connected...
And that is all they talk about, fight about, and care about...
Well, that's not God.
And its also not God keeping this type of heretic on a "christian" forum.
And they INFEST them...

Now, its fine if different denominations and different theologies, get together, and clamor and fence, and jostle, as that is how the newbie learns.
The unskilled with the word, they fight with you, but they listen, and they grow within that.... arm wrestling..

But you have some, who are not here to listen, they are here to poison.
And you find them, you discover them, by one simple thing... they do.
They DESIERE to talk you out of your Eternal Security.
They DESIRE try to get you to worry about losing your salvation.
They DESIRE to get you to start believing you have to do things to stay saved, or not do things, to stay saved.

And what is that devilment??
That is the devil's own trying to make you DOUBT the power of the Blood of Jesus.

 

[Behold]

Except he never actually said that. He never said this is your nature, you are, etc. Again, what he said was an exclamation, like holy cow!


Thomas answered Him, “My Lord and my God!”
John 20:18

Nearly all Bible versions say "my Lord and my God".

Thomas kneeled and said that...
are you saying you were there and can prove he didn't?
Of which side of the fence, do you exist?

How exactly are you trying to spin the verse?
You are trying to use it to prove Jesus's isn't God?
Well that is a problem, as Jesus said He is God.
Paul said he is God.

What do you have?
Opinion?
A commentary?

 

[Truther]

Not MADE in the original Greek text. Check out the Greek text of that verse.

Tong
R2334

The original Greek disintegrated at least 1800 years ago.

 

[Truther]

Microscopic cell? As I said, I would not know how a miracle is done. What I know is that He did not come as a full grown man, but that He incarnated by way of being born miraculously of the virgin Mary.

Tong
R2335

Was her egg cell fertilized to make Jesus officially the son of man, David, Abraham, etc?

 

[Truther]

There is a certain type of ...........well, they claim to be a Christian, but, they are "suspect"
The reason is, God is the revelation, and He reveals, and He never stops.
So, if a person who is born again, has not evolved in their understanding of spiritual matters, or moreso, if they are locked into about 3 verses FOR LIFE.....and can only talk about, maybe 2-3 subjects, ENDLESSLY..... and one of them is...>"lose your salvation", and the other is connected...
And that is all they talk about, fight about, and care about...
Well, that's not God.
And its also not God keeping this type of heretic on a "christian" forum.
And they INFEST them...

Now, its fine if different denominations and different theologies, get together, and clamor and fence, and jostle, as that is how the newbie learns.
The unskilled with the word, they fight with you, but they listen, and they grow within that.... arm wrestling..

But you have some, who are not here to listen, they are here to poison.
And you find them, you discover them, by one simple thing... they do.
They DESIERE to talk you out of your Eternal Security.
They DESIRE try to get you to worry about losing your salvation.
They DESIRE to get you to start believing you have to do things to stay saved, or not do things, to stay saved.

And what is that devilment??
That is the devil's own trying to make you DOUBT the power of the Blood of Jesus.

You need to see how Wrangler got where he is.

He was reading verses like this...

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

Or this...

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

And this....

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:


Etc. So he needs to have this explained to him about how Jesus is God, but still has a God as we speak.

We are doing a poor job explaining it, so we just attack him instead for disagreeing.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Not MADE in the original Greek text. Check out the Greek text of that verse.

The original Greek disintegrated at least 1800 years ago.

It seems you are suggesting that the Bible we have now is not trustworthy by what you contend there. So why do you even believe the Bible?

Okay, check out the text coming from the extant Greek manuscript of that passage.

Tong
R2336

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Microscopic cell? As I said, I would not know how a miracle is done. What I know is that He did not come as a full grown man, but that He incarnated by way of being born miraculously of the virgin Mary.

Was her egg cell fertilized to make Jesus officially the son of man, David, Abraham, etc?

It’s a miracle Truther.

Tong
R2337

 

[Wrangler]

You are trying to use it to prove Jesus's isn't God?
Well that is a problem, as Jesus said He is God.
Paul said he is God.

Paul said 'For us there is one God, the Father.' Jesus never said he was God but that God was greater than he and knew more than he. The Thomas verse is not being spun, just identified for the exclamation it is rather than a statement of the nature of the man Jesus.

The SHEMA informs us the true God is one alone (not a trinity). How we know this is the entire Bible was written by unitarians/monotheists Jews who reject trinitarianism to this day. Therefore, any verse that trinitarians suppose supports the man-is-God thesis is having the doctrine imposed on unitarian text.

 

[Wrangler]

the miracle of the incarnation

There was no incarnation. God raised Jesus from the dead.


Blessed is God, the Father of our Lord Jesus, the Anointed One! Because He has raised Jesus the Anointed from death
1 Peter 1:3 (Voice)

 

[Ronald Nolette]

No sir! What I said is in perfect alignment with Acts 4:12.

If people cannot callupon Jesus , they cannot get saved.

Some sincere Muslim in Indonesia who never hear fo jesus but just knows Allah and is a "good Muslim" is lost!
The animist in Africa who believes in some being but never heard the name Jesus cannot be saved.

Sorry But that is why God made such a point of this when He inspired Paul to write this:

Romans 10:9-16
King James Version

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!


You can deny it all you wish, but if you believe anybody can get saved without acknowledging Jesus SPRCIFICALLY, you are promoting at least 2 gospels. Just because you justify it differently than others who have attempted this false doctrine doesn't make it any more right!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

We could only believe what scriptures says about those who died in their infancy and childhood. That they have at least sinned in Adam. The only way that they are saved is by God’s grace, as is for all, which I am inclined to believe, they received the grace of salvation by the work of Jesus Christ who said, “for of such is the kingdom of God”.

Yes, it is reasonable for us humans to think that babies don’t have faith, but we never really know.

Well that is a personal belief that has no foundation in the Inspired Word of God which is the only thing profitable for doctrine.

Not if you read carefully what I said in my posts.

Sorry, but if you believe people can be save apart from trusting in Jesus in this life, you are preaching another gospel of salvation apart from what Gods Word commands.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Not something implied or am reading in.How is that an implication and a reading in? It’s interpretation. I interpret like so and you interpret differently as you do there.

I’ll quote that passage and context, and read carefully.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,

In v.19 He was not really talking about Himself but about the Spirit.

To whom and when did He said He preached by the Spirit?

1 Peter 3:20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

It’s not to all the dead, but to them who were disobedient in the days of Noah whom He had poured His wrath upon by killing them in the flood.

It’s not after He died nor before He resurrected, but during those days while Noah was building the ark.

Tong
R2328

Well you may be right here. And if so, then He preached their damnation. They were lost for they do not exercise faith in the message of God through Noah- 120 years of preaching! Others would have heard as well. there is nothing to say that all humans who died in the flood were kept in a seperate room in hell.

 

[Wrangler]

You can deny it all you wish, but if you believe anybody can get saved without acknowledging Jesus SPRCIFICALLY, you are promoting at least 2 gospels.

I explained how 3 is 1. You ought to be familiar with that sort of rationalizing.

Babies don't call anyone. Yet, I believe our merciful Lord will save them nonetheless. You?

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus said He is God.

Jesus said if he glorified himself, it means nothing.

"Jesus replied, 'If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.
John 8:54, NIV

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I'm not saying the only Begotten Son of God was or is a man in heaven, although I think it's interesting that someone who believes that Jesus was a God-Man is asking me if I believe Jesus to be a man in heaven.

monogenes is defined by lexicographers as “single of its kind, only,” or “the only member of a kin or kind.”
The Greek Septuagint uses monogenes when speaking of Jephthah’s daughter, concerning whom it is written: “Now she was absolutely the only child. Besides her he had neither son nor daughter.”Judges 11:14

And as I said, the apostle John repeatedly describes the Lord Jesus Christ as the only-begotten Son of God. (John 1:14; 3:16,18; 1John4:9) and this is not in reference to his human birth or to him as just the man Jesus. As the Logos, or Word, “this one was in the beginning with God,” even “before the world was.” (John 1:1,2; 17:5,24) At that time while in his prehuman state of existence, he is described as the “only-begotten Son” whom his Father sent “into the world.”1John 4:9

What anyone thinks of Michael the Archangel, I don't worry about. I care more what the scriptures say about Michael the Archangel than what you and others believe.

At 1 Thessalonians 4:16, in speaking of the superiority of the archangel and the authority of his office, it does so in reference to the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ: “The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.” It is, therefore, not without significance that the only name directly associated with the word “archangel” is Michael. Jude 9

Miʹcha·el which means Who Is Like God. It's the only holy angel other than Gabriel named in the Bible, and the only one called “archangel.” (Jude 9) The first occurrence of the name is in 10th chapter of Daniel where Michael is described as “one of the foremost princes”; he came to the aid of a lesser angel who was opposed by “the prince of the royal realm of Persia.” Michael was called “the prince of Daniel’s people,” “the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of Daniel’s people.” (Daniel 10:13,20,21; 12:1) This points to Michael as the angel who led the Israelites through the wilderness. (Ex.23:20,21,23; 32:34; 33:2) Lending support to this conclusion is the fact that “Michael the archangel had a difference with the Devil and was disputing about Moses’ body.”—Jude 9.

Now let's talk about the phrase, "God the Son." There is nothing in the scriptures that justifies anyone inverting the greek phrase, "monogenes theos,” at John 1:18 which means, "Only Begotten God," to, "God Only Begotten." According to the most reliable manuscripts, "monogenes theos," is translated to, "Only Begotten God." Those who invert monogenes theos change it to try and prove there doctrine.

Lets tackle your last paragraph first.

You are correct there is no phrase saying the only begotten god! I would love to see your list of "reliable manuscripts".
But given the fact that Jesus is called God in numerous occasions, is called Jehovah at least twice, and is called the "son" as well, it is correct to call Him god the son to distinguish Him from the Father.

Yep Michael means that. but to take that Grand canyon leap from the archangel to him being Jesus requires a lot of unbiblical philosophizing! Jesus comes with the voice of the archangel and the trump of God. Now go to history and learn that this is a very simple military formula of the day. The commander gives and order, the "second in command " (Michael) shouts it out and then so on and so on.

And to say Michael is Jesus is to say Satan was higher in rank than Jesus. Michael dared not dispute with Satan and Satan is a cherub which is a higher order of Spirit being. He also was the "arch" cherub if you will as He was the anointed cherub.

Just like angels ahve a leader- called MIchael who is the "arch" or chief angel. that doesn't make him Jesus except for the watch tower retranslators.

But you conveniently did not answer what kind of whatever was transferred from heaven to the special procreated child we call Jesus! Jesus has a title called Emmanu-el "God in human flesh!" Not "Emmanu-aggelos" "angel in human flesh. Jesus was god in human flesh!

Matthew 1:23
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

I await what kind of twisted logic you will produce from the watchtower to deny that Jesus was not actually God with us!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I explained how 3 is 1. You ought to be familiar with that sort of rationalizing.

Babies don't call anyone. Yet, I believe our merciful Lord will save them nonetheless. You?

Well God is a trinity,and that is biblical.

But having three differing methods of saving people and calling it all calling upon the name of the Lord is not biblical.

 

[Wrangler]

You need to see how Wrangler got where he is.

He was reading verses like this...

Refer to the thread I started on The Case Against Trinitarianism. One verse I read is the 1C. If the plural 'our' in GE 1:26 is important, the singular 'me' in the 1C is even more important.

Another is when Jesus affirmed the SHEMA, the true God is one. Mark 12:29 Jesus: 29 The most important commandment is this: “Hear, O Israel, the Eternal One is our God, and the Eternal One is the only God.

Another verse is John 20:17 were the resurrected Jesus spoke of going to his God. There is only one God and it is Jesus' God. The Apostles affirmed this over and over and over again.

Blessed is God, the Father of our Lord Jesus, the Anointed One! Because He has raised Jesus the Anointed from death
1 Peter 1:3 (Voice)

'For Us, there is one God, the Father'
1 Corinthians 8:6

Grace and peace be with you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus the Anointed.
Philippians 1:2 The Voice

31 He has fixed a day of accountability, when the whole world will be justly evaluated by a new, higher standard: not by a statue, but by a living man. God selected this man and made Him credible to all by raising Him from the dead.
Acts 17:31

“However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows.
Mark 13:32

“The Father is greater than I”
John 14:28?

 

[Wrangler]

Well God is a trinity,and that is biblical.

Nothing is as unbiblical as the trinity. The trinity is not in the Bible - not the word, not the idea.