For free will believers out there

[Ronald Nolette]

In v.14, Jesus was referring to little children and said concerning them “of such is the kingdom of God”. I understand by that, that it places the little children to be part of the kingdom of God, not only that Jesus in v.15 speaks to the child like receiving of the kingdom of God. Verse 16 supports this understanding.

So when do children stop being part of teh kingdom of God. When do they lose their by birth salvation and have to trust Christ to get born again-AGAIN?

<<<First, No where does it say Jesus
preached the gospel.>>>

With reference to 1 Peter 3:19, what do you suggest Christ preached by the Spirit then, considering the context, if not the gospel?

YOu forget that the word preach

<<<Second Paul specifically declares that the gospel is for damnation to those who reject it.>>>

The gospel is good news. The gospel is of salvation, not damnation. Those who reject it does not alter the gospel of salvation, nor make it a gospel of condemnation to them.

<<<Are you saying that Jesus preached to the worlds inhabitants in the time of Noah and preached His death Burial and REsurrection?>>>

It is becoming apparently clear that what you see and how you take the gospel of salvation is different from what I see and how I take it.

No, I am not saying that.

here is not the word to evangelize or share good news(euanglizo)

preached the gospel.
Second Paul specifically declares that the gospel is for damnation to those who reject it.
3. Are you saying that Jesus preached to the worlds inhabitants in the time of Noah and preached His death Burial and REsurrection? Are you also saying that all the worlds inhabitants except Noah and his family were in prison?

The gospel is good news-to those who receive it. But to those who reject it?

1. 2 Corinthians 2:15
   For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. 2 Corinthians 2:16
   To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

And no I do not believe Jesus preached to anyone until He came as the God -man. But you have people all getting saved the same way.

Yes all are saved by grace through faith, and all are saved because of the blood Jesus shed. but the object of faith has been different in different times.

Yes everyone who died in the flood are in the place of torments awaiting the lake of fire. Peter calls it prision.

Noah was a preacher of righteousness for 120 years while building the ark. No one accepted His message except his family- they died and were lost.

Genesis 6
King James Version

6 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.


Scripture makes it clear. All were l;ost excpet Noah and His family.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I didn't think you would agree with them you will speak out against anyone or anything that goes against what you believe is the truth, which is your right. Just remember I don't agree with you either which is my right.

Well now you are talking about individuals rights. And yes you are entitled to believe anything you wish and I would defend that right until my last breath!

However I have the individual right and duty to tell you that by denying the physical resurrection of Jesus in the body He died in, you are lost and will stay lost and if you die rejecting HIs bodily resurrection, you will find out that the Watchtower has made you a tow fo;ld child of hell than they are themselves.

They will answer for their twisting of the Scriptures. YOu have been shown th etruth without all that fancy philosophizing and evil manipoulation of the Word of God. My hope is you will take advantage of it and allow Jesus to save your soul. YOu will find out you have one of them as well!

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Ronald Nolette said:
However I have the individual right and duty to tell you that by denying the physical resurrection of Jesus in the body He died in, you are lost and will stay lost and if you die rejecting HIs bodily resurrection, you will find out that the Watchtower has made you a tow fo;ld child of hell than they are themselves.[/Quote\]

Obviously you're a person who blames other people for the choices you make, since you assume I blame someone for my choices. However I don't blame others for my choices. If I make a wrong choice I blame no one but myself.
However I'm not going to deny that The Only-Begotten Son of God came to the world of mankind in the likeness of the first human Adam, and sacrificed that human body and human life for the world of mankind and then three days later was resurrected a powerful life giving spirit Who was given immortality and inherit incorruption. Others can argue all they want but before the Only-Begotten Son of God die he was a perfect sinless human like the first man Adam. The Only-Begotten Son of God when he came to the world of mankind wasn't and immortal incorruptible person before he sacrificed his perfect sinless human life.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

He only existed in the mind and will of God, which is reality.

Did you know the Bible says some are damned from the foundation of the world before they are born?

Not by God's will, but by God's KNOWLEDGE.

I don't see anywhere in this Scripture at Philippians 2: 5-8 that the Only Begotten Son of God existed only in the mind and will of God, which is reality.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<Please tell me you accept in Acts 17:31 that God (in his unitarian nature) selectedJesus, a man; sent Jesus, as Jesus himself said in John 8:41-42.>>>

Yes, I accept not only those scriptures

I know you are desperate to move onto other scriptures. You accept these scriptures, you say? The question was do you accept in Acts 17:31 that God (in his unitarian nature) selected Jesus, a man; sent Jesus, as Jesus himself said in John 8:41-42?

These scriptures are explicit and literal. God selected & sent Jesus. The trinity is not in the Bible - not the word, not the idea. The Defense rests.

If you think your defense rest with, you are mistaken. But of course you have the right to think so.

All you have really defended is the truth of the humanity of Jesus. It is scriptures that speaks of the humanity of Jesus, not human reasoning or worldly wisdom. Why people exert so much effort to defend the truth of His humanity using human reasoning and worldly wisdom is mind boggling to me, as though scriptures is lacking, as though such is what makes truth to be true. Well, ....

I brought up other scriptures for you to consider concerning Jesus Christ to show you who He is. But it seems you just want to consider the scriptures that speaks of his humanity. Then you will never really get to know who Christ is. That’s up to you then.

Tong
R2403

 

[Wrangler]

All you have really defended is the truth of the humanity of Jesus.

Wrong! The verses cited stated God (in his unitarian nature) selected and sent Jesus. It has nothing to do with your Appeal to Strawman, only addressing the humanity of Jesus.

God (in his unitarian nature) selected and sent Jesus. (In Acts 17:31 & John 8:41-42). This is no kind of equality between Jesus and God. Even language usage tells you that.

 

[Tong2020]

Unitarianism is a crock.

For all those who knows not the Son, and correctly believes in no other Deity, except in God who created heaven and earth, I think are unitarians.

Such are the unbelieving Jews. They claim to honor God. Yet they honor not the Son. They see Jesus differently, knowing Him to be a man who blasphemously claimed to be the Son of God, making God His Father, as such making Himself equal with God, and so was worthy of death and was rightfully had been put to death, the penalty for blasphemy under the Jewish law. They believe that there is only one God, who is only one person and is not a man, and that there is no Deity except YHWH, so that any person who claims to be equal with YHWH or claims to be YHWH commits blasphemy.

Tong
R2404

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
In v.14, Jesus was referring to little children and said concerning them “of such is the kingdom of God”. I understand by that, that it places the little children to be part of the kingdom of God, not only that Jesus in v.15 speaks to the child like receiving of the kingdom of God. Verse 16 supports this understanding.

So when do children stop being part of teh kingdom of God. When do they lose their by birth salvation and have to trust Christ to get born again-AGAIN?

We are talking of people who died or dies in they infancy or childhood.

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<First, No where does it say Jesus
preached the gospel.>>>

With reference to 1 Peter 3:19, what do you suggest Christ preached by the Spirit then, considering the context, if not the gospel?

YOu forget that the word preach

I can’t seem to get what you want to say they relative to my question. Please explain.

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<Second Paul specifically declares that the gospel is for damnation to those who reject it.>>>

The gospel is good news. The gospel is of salvation, not damnation. Those who reject it does not alter the gospel of salvation, nor make it a gospel of condemnation to them.

<<<Are you saying that Jesus preached to the worlds inhabitants in the time of Noah and preached His death Burial and REsurrection?>>>

It is becoming apparently clear that what you see and how you take the gospel of salvation is different from what I see and how I take it.

No, I am not saying that.

here is not the word to evangelize or share good news(euanglizo)

preached the gospel.
Second Paul specifically declares that the gospel is for damnation to those who reject it.
3. Are you saying that Jesus preached to the worlds inhabitants in the time of Noah and preached His death Burial and REsurrection? Are you also saying that all the worlds inhabitants except Noah and his family were in prison?

The gospel is good news-to those who receive it. But to those who reject it?

1. 2 Corinthians 2:15
   For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. 2 Corinthians 2:16
   To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

And no I do not believe Jesus preached to anyone until He came as the God -man. But you have people all getting saved the same way.

Yes all are saved by grace through faith, and all are saved because of the blood Jesus shed. but the object of faith has been different in different times.

Yes everyone who died in the flood are in the place of torments awaiting the lake of fire. Peter calls it prision.

Noah was a preacher of righteousness for 120 years while building the ark. No one accepted His message except his family- they died and were lost.

Genesis 6
King James Version

6 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

Scripture makes it clear. All were l;ost excpet Noah and His family.

1 Peter 3:18For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

Let us read carefully what Peter was saying. He was speaking of Christ as also suffered that He (Christ) might bring us to God. That the theme (in bold fonts) of what Peter is talking about. That in so doing, Christ was put to death in the flesh. However, He was made alive by the Spirit, the Spirit by whom Christ went and preached. What is this preaching for? Of course it is consistent with the theme, and so is for bringing them to God. Who was Peter referring to here that he said Christ preached by the Spirit? It is to whom Peter described as “spirits in prison”, whom he identified as those who were disobedient, those who were destroyed in the days of Noah by the flood. When did He preached to them? It was during the time while the ark was being prepared by Noah. Peter there was not saying that Christ preached to them when they were already dead.

<<<Yes all are saved by grace through faith, and all are saved because of the blood Jesus shed. but the object of faith has been different in different times.>>>

As it has been ever since by grace through faith, the object of faith had not changed. It is God, from first to last, from beginning to end.

Tong
R2405

 

[Tong2020]

I don't see anywhere in this Scripture at Philippians 2: 5-8 that the Only Begotten Son of God existed only in the mind and will of God, which is reality.

Yes. Before He came to the world in the form of man, He was in the form of God. He was the word, who was God.

Tong
R2406

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
All you have really defended is the truth of the humanity of Jesus.

Wrong! The verses cited stated God (in his unitarian nature) selected and sent Jesus. It has nothing to do with your Appeal to Strawman, only addressing the humanity of Jesus.

God (in his unitarian nature) selected and sent Jesus. (In Acts 17:31 & John 8:41-42). This is no kind of equality between Jesus and God. Even language usage tells you that.

That is not an appeal to straw man Wrangler. It is an appeal to the truth in scriptures. You use your human reasoning and worldly wisdom, I on the other will use God’s words ~ the scriptures to speak out.

Since we have no issue on the humanity of Jesus, I will, by scriptures show you truth about God. Let’s see how you will take this truth.

Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

And here’s how you had taken that truth in scriptures: “Matthew 28:19 is a corruption.”

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

And here’s how you seem to have taken that truth in scriptures that the “word” there is just an “idea” ( if I got that right). Or perhaps you’ll say it’s figurative and not literal? Or perhaps, say a it’s a mistranslation? In other words, a refutation attempt by using human reasoning and worldly wisdom. For there is simply no scriptures that speaks to negate what is spoken in that passage about the Word ~ that He was God.

But these scriptures here;

Isaiah 44:6“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.

John 1:49 Nathanael answered and said to Him, “Rabbi, You are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!”

Revelation 1:17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last.

I have brought up these verses for yoir consideration. However you seem to have just ignored them.

Tong
R2407

 

[Wrangler]

It is an appeal to the truth in scriptures.

No. The trinity is not in the Bible. You are projecting your doctrine onto unitarian text.

I already showed you the relevant verses about how God selected and sent Jesus but you do not have ears to hear.

 

[Truther]

Well that isn’t hard nowadays.

Let me help.

The Greek text translated in the English KJV in John 1:14 as “made” is “egeneto” which means “became”.

Tong
R2398

You just debunked the ancient KJV translators.

Ain't you something.

 

[Truther]

And among those scriptures are:

Revelation 1:13
and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band.

John 6:62What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?

And scriptures also said of Jesus that He is the Son of God.

Tong
R2398

Correct.

Jesus was the son of man via Mary and the son of God via God.

 

[Truther]

I don't see anywhere in this Scripture at Philippians 2: 5-8 that the Only Begotten Son of God existed only in the mind and will of God, which is reality.

No, but you do at least see that Phil 2:8 was speaking of a human and not God humbling Himself and dying.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
It is an appeal to the truth in scriptures.

No. The trinity is not in the Bible. You are projecting your doctrine onto unitarian text.

I already showed you the relevant verses about how God selected and sent Jesus but you do not have ears to hear.

Nothing there but personal comments, about “you”, “I” instead of “God’s revelation in scriptures”.

A total avoidance of the scriptures I quoted for consideration, that speaks of Jesus Christ’s Deity, that He is God.

Tong
R2410

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Well that isn’t hard nowadays.

Let me help.

The Greek text translated in the English KJV in John 1:14 as “made” is “egeneto” which means “became”.

You just debunked the ancient KJV translators.

Ain't you something.

That is not the issue. The issue is what “made” there denotes. That it denotes a becoming rather than a making. The other translations have got that on the clear by using “became” instead of “made”.

Tong
R2411

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
And among those scriptures are:

Revelation 1:13
and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band.

John 6:62What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?

And scriptures also said of Jesus that He is the Son of God.

Correct.

Jesus was the son of man via Mary and the son of God via God.

Jesus said the He, before his humanity, was in heaven. He pre-existed. Thus Jesus just came down from heaven when He came to the world. He was in the form of God then, but took the form of man when He came to the world. He was not like you or I in that sense, who were born into existence.

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He is the LORD (YHWH), the King of Israel, He is the first and the last.

Tong
R2412

 

[Ronald Nolette]

We are talking of people who died or dies in they infancy or childhood.

Yes and where in SCripture does it say they have their own special kind of salvation without naming th ename of Jesus and then lose it at some point in time. Show me and I will believe.

I can’t seem to get what you want to say they relative to my question. Please explain.

Well almost exclusively when preaching the gospel is mentioned, the word preach is "euangellos" in Peter the word preached is "kēryssō" which means a herald making an official proclamation. This is nto preaching the good news to the spirits in prison. Unless prison meant Abrahams bosom and those there were the righteous dead. But as you correctly pointed out theese were the souls who died in the flood- so they were lost.

When did He preached to them? It was during the time while the ark was being prepared by Noah. Peter there was not saying that Christ preached to them when they were already dead.

YOur grammar is atrocious. Jesus did not preach to those folks when the ark was being built. That cannot be supported at all by the context or any rule of grammar.

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the

Let us look:

1. Christ died to redeem, killed in the flesh made alive in or by the Spirit.

2. He preached to spirits in prison. (by the Spirit)

3. These spirits were sometimes disobedient while the ark was being built.

No where can you justify Jesus preaching to the sould alive while the Ark was being built. Noah was that preacher of righteousness for the 120 years the ark was being built.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Ronald Nolette said:
However I have the individual right and duty to tell you that by denying the physical resurrection of Jesus in the body He died in, you are lost and will stay lost and if you die rejecting HIs bodily resurrection, you will find out that the Watchtower has made you a tow fo;ld child of hell than they are themselves.[/Quote\]

Obviously you're a person who blames other people for the choices you make, since you assume I blame someone for my choices. However I don't blame others for my choices. If I make a wrong choice I blame no one but myself.
However I'm not going to deny that The Only-Begotten Son of God came to the world of mankind in the likeness of the first human Adam, and sacrificed that human body and human life for the world of mankind and then three days later was resurrected a powerful life giving spirit Who was given immortality and inherit incorruption. Others can argue all they want but before the Only-Begotten Son of God die he was a perfect sinless human like the first man Adam. The Only-Begotten Son of God when he came to the world of mankind wasn't and immortal incorruptible person before he sacrificed his perfect sinless human life.

Obviously you pretend to know people when you don't! I take responsibility for my own choices and not seek to blame others for what I allow myself to do or think.

YOu now have Jesus as the only begotten Son of God,
the archangel Michael
a perfect man
a powerful life giving spirit.

It is sad you do not study more of the scripture and its original languages. for you would know that likeness means outer appearance
form means that which strikes the eye (once again outer appearance.

No one denies Jesus was truly human, but He did not give up His equality with God either! He just did not make a big deal of it.

All that is of lesser importance.

The fact you hold to the Watchtower lie that jesus was not resurrected (remember resurrect is ana-stasia a standing AGAIN) in the body He laid down, exlcudes you from the kingdom of God and condemns you. I would wish different for you.

But as you said, you have the right to believe what you wish no matter what eternal price you will have to pay for following a lie.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

No, but you do at least see that Phil 2:8 was speaking of a human and not God humbling Himself and dying.

What I see is what the scripture says that the Only Begotten Son of God in God's form then emptying himself and became human. So first this scripture is saying that before the Only Begotten Son of God became human he was in God's form then he became human