"The word was a god"?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

PinSeeker

Well-Known Member
Oct 4, 2021
2,534
691
113
Nashville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You know what’s funny (not laughing) but strange that what Paul described, was beginning not long after Jesus sacrificed his life. The “apostasy” that Jesus and the apostles foretold, was already surfacing at the time of Paul’s writing, in the first century.
Absolutely. Even long before that, actually. As the writer of Ecclesiastes says, "There is nothing new under the sun." Sure.

What you believe is a recent event, is in fact an an ancient one.....it was foretold by Daniel that “the time of the end” (which we are experiencing now) would be the time for God to “clean” up his worship....to “purify” it and “refine” it of all the impurities that centuries of gradually added spiritual “filth”...
Sure. When Jesus comes back, all will be set right.

Remember the parable of the “wheat and the weeds”? Who sowed the weeds?...and when did he sow them? Where did he sow them? And what would happen as a result of God allowing them both to “grow together” in the same “field” until it was time for the “harvest”? By the time of the harvest, the “reapers” would already have identified the weeds in order to separate the “wheat from the weeds”.....this is a separation of the true Christians from the false ones. How many would the appointed judge of all of us find, “doing the will” of his Father? (Matthew 7:21-23) Will it be the majority who hold onto to the false beliefs, and who have rejected the truth because it doesn’t fit what they want to believe? Not according to Jesus (Matthew 7:13-14).....it would be the “few” who recognised the truth when they heard it, and were prepared to adjust their thinking, just like the Jewish Christians had done when Jesus came to preach something that appeared to be new, but was actually a return to the true worship that they had lost. History is clearly repeating but very few seem to recognise it.
Generally, yes, I agree. Again, like the writer of Ecclesiastes says, "There is nothing new under the sun."

The true Christian “wheat” have separated themselves from the “weeds” by rejecting the false doctrines that were introduce centuries ago.
Many think so, yes, but, as Paul said, many would ~ and have ~ not endured sound teaching, but having itching ears they have accumulated for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and thus turned away from listening to the truth and wandered off into myths.

Only at the time of the end would God reveal the truth by providing an abundance of knowledge at this time. (Daniel 12:4)
Very interesting citation, Daniel 12:4. Yes, the increase of knowledge. God's people will not be left alone in the fiery trials in the times ahead; God Himself, represented here by the angel Michael, will rise up to deliver them ~ and He (not Michael, but God) did so in the Person of Jesus... Michael is a "type," a "shadow" of Jesus in this way, but not Jesus Himself. The Old Testament is filled with types and shadows pointing to Jesus; as the writer of Hebrews says, this is how God spoke to our fathers long ago, by types and shadows, but now has spoken to us by His Son (Hebrews 12:1-2). But yes, Daniel was instructed to shut up the words and seal the book, both because its contents were not fully comprehensible and also to keep them safe for future generations of God's people to read, but at all times, then and now (and until Jesus returns, of course), the wise ~ wise because they are made so by God, receiving His wisdom, by the work of the Holy Spirit ~ will know where to find true wisdom, though those around them go to and fro, seeking knowledge in vain, which is very similar to what Amos also says, that "'Behold, the days are coming,' declares the Lord GOD, 'when I will send a famine on the land ~ not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD. They shall wander from sea to sea, and from north to east; they shall go to and fro, to seek the word of the LORD, but they shall not find it.'" (Amos 8:11-12).

This is what makes every one of us accountable....ignorance is no longer an excuse.
Yes, Paul is very clear about this in Romans 1 and 2.

The truth is out there, like it or not....but the majority were going to reject it...
Very true, unfortunately. Again we hear Paul's words in 2 Timothy 4:3-4: "...the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths."

...not wanting to appear to be going against what their denomination taught...
Ah. Well, maybe, and I would include the Jehovah's Witness denomination, here... :) The, um, "Watchtower-ists." :)

By our response to the message of truth that was to be “preached in all the inhabited earth” by an unpopular minority, (Matthew 24:14)...
Well, God's Word certainly does not return to Him empty (Isaiah 55:11), it always accomplishes that purpose for which it was sent... even despite the ones bringing it... or being mistaken about it. :)

...we are showing God how much the truth is touching our heart.
Ah, how terribly prideful, and quite the opposite of the mind we are supposed to have among ourselves, which is ours in Christ Jesus, Who, though He was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped/used, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, He humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. This is Philippians 2, as I'm sure you know.

Those who accept it will alter their attitude and accept what is unpopular...
Agree. Yes, as Paul says, "the Word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God" (1 Corinthians 1:18).

...rather than sticking with a majority who believe the lies that the devil sowed so long ago.
Sure.

You either see this clearly...or you have an induced “blindness” that will lead to devastating consequences. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)
Sure. Well... actually, spiritual blindness is the natural human condition. But sure.

Confidence is no indicator of whether one has the truth...
Outward confidence, right.

Can we learn the lessons from the past? For the majority, apparently not. :(
Well, that depends on what lessons you mean, and Who the Teacher really is. :)

Grace and peace to you, Aunty Jane.
 

PinSeeker

Well-Known Member
Oct 4, 2021
2,534
691
113
Nashville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I accept you apology and admitting your were wrong.... Your welcome!!!
Paul
LOL! This must have been meant for somebody else, because, although I have been very humble, I have been neither apologetic nor admitting of any wrong... because it has not been necessary. :)

Grace and peace to you, Pierac. Especially grace, since that seems to be an area where you are so lacking.
 

tigger 2

Well-Known Member
Oct 19, 2017
916
405
63
84
port angeles
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Johann wrote #515:

"You are no scholar, so leave John 1:1 and lean not unto your own understanding.
I know the urge to sound to sound
[sic] sophomoric and highly intellectual and to know all the answers in the scriptures is fleshly driven, mere intellectual, stoical knowledge, acquired gnosis, so please, down with th [sic] pride and just believe what you read, and Christ Jesus IS Theos, Theos pros ho Theos.."
............................................
Why would anyone want to sound "sophomoric"?

Do you mean that I must follow the teachings of trinitarian scholars and overlook any errors they make?

I have quoted/cited a number of recognized trinitarian scholars in my study of John 1:1. If you are as educated in NT Greek as you claim, you should be able to do a scholarly examination (not just personal attack) of every aspect of my study. I expect that, instead, you will refuse with the usual excuses.

Examining the Trinity OR Examining the Trinity: John 1:1c Primer - For Grammatical Rules That Supposedly "Prove" the Trinity.

Please point out the errors one by one and explain why they are wrong.

Let me help you. Here is the first point in the Jn 1:1c Primer study:

"The NT Greek word for "God" and "god" is theos (θεὸς). In the writings of the Gospel writers (including John) when an unmodified theos (the form used for subjects and predicate nouns) is accompanied by the article, "the" ( [pronounced ho] in Greek), and has no added phrases (e.g., "the god of this world"), then it always refers to the only true God. - See DEF study."
 
Last edited:

Pierac

Active Member
Nov 15, 2021
756
159
43
61
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
LOL! This must have been meant for somebody else, because, although I have been very humble, I have been neither apologetic nor admitting of any wrong... because it has not been necessary. :)

Grace and peace to you, Pierac. Especially grace, since that seems to be an area where you are so lacking.

You had me at LOL.... then you utterly failed at "Especially grace, since that seems to be an area where you are so lacking"

You really are a Pin Seeker...
Paul
 

OzSpen

Well-Known Member
Mar 30, 2015
3,728
795
113
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
spencer.gear.dyndns.org
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Oops! I was going back and forth between threads. Thanks for that.

There is no ‘Godhead’ in Scripture. A bad trinitarian translation imposed its doctrine unto unitarian text.

The Gospel of John is the most anti-trinitarian book of the Bible. 17:3 Jesus explicitly says the Father is the one, true God. What do you make of this verse?

Wrangler,

There certainly is the Godhead revealed in Scripture:
+ God, the Father (Eph 4:6);
+ God, the Son (Col 1:13-16);
+ God, the Holy Spirit (John 14:25-26).

I don't think you are listening, so I'll leave the discussion now.

Oz
 

Wrangler

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2021
13,296
4,959
113
55
Shining City on a Hill
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Wrangler,

There certainly is the Godhead revealed in Scripture:
+ God, the Father (Eph 4:6);
+ God, the Son (Col 1:13-16);
+ God, the Holy Spirit (John 14:25-26).

I don't think you are listening, so I'll leave the discussion now.

Oz
Only God the Father is explicit in Scripture. No Godhead. In your reply you reference verses of 3 Gods not 1 Godhead.

If you want to read into Scripture words and meanings that are not there, that’s in you. We can delve into the verses you cited, if you think it would be helpful.
 

PinSeeker

Well-Known Member
Oct 4, 2021
2,534
691
113
Nashville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You had me at LOL.... then you utterly failed at "Especially grace, since that seems to be an area where you are so lacking"
LOL! To a suggestion that you are lacking in grace, you respond (because you feel like you have to, I guess) with a lack of grace. Yeah, that's... not surprising... :)

You really are a Pin Seeker...
Paul
I do like golf... :)

Grace and peace to you, Pierac.
 

Dropship

Well-Known Member
Jun 2, 2022
2,213
1,514
113
76
Plymouth UK
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
I like Paul's healthy attitude-
"I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself.
My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time" (1 Corinthians 4:3)

So like I said, only God knows if we shape up in his eyes..:)
 
  • Like
Reactions: PinSeeker

Aunty Jane

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2021
5,189
2,312
113
Sydney
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
I like Paul's healthy attitude-
"I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself.
My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time" (1 Corinthians 4:3)

So like I said, only God knows if we shape up in his eyes..:)
Exactly.....this is not something we can take for granted.....

2 Peter 3:11-15....
“Since all these things are to be dissolved in this way, consider what sort of people you ought to be in holy acts of conduct and deeds of godly devotion, 12 as you await and keep close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah, through which the heavens will be destroyed in flames and the elements will melt in the intense heat! 13 But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.

14 Therefore, beloved ones, since you are awaiting these things, do your utmost to be found finally by him spotless and unblemished and in peace. 15 Furthermore, consider the patience of our Lord as salvation...”


He gives us time to get ourselves and our lives in order.....but we are not the best judges of what is “good enough”....
 

Pierac

Active Member
Nov 15, 2021
756
159
43
61
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
LOL! To a suggestion that you are lacking in grace, you respond (because you feel like you have to, I guess) with a lack of grace. Yeah, that's... not surprising... :)


I do like golf... :)

Grace and peace to you, Pierac.
Grace to you too PinSeeker!
Paul
 

Pierac

Active Member
Nov 15, 2021
756
159
43
61
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jewish “Ideal” Preexistence
In the English language, and certainly the way young people speak, we often speak about something that happened in the past as though it is happening in the present. For instance, a witness to a bank robbery might say, “And here I am standing in line minding my own business, when bursting through the door comes as a hooded bank robber. He tells us all to get on the floor. He waves his gun around and threatens us. Then he goes up to the teller and yells, ‘Give me the money!’” We understand the events described occurred in the past, even though the narrative is in the present. Speaking of past events in the present is a peculiarity of the English language.

Most languages have peculiarities. The Hebrew mind and language has a peculiarity that English speakers are not accustomed to. They do the opposite of what I have just described. They often use the past tense or the present tense to speak of events yet future. The reason is that the Jews believed that whatever was determined in the mind of God existed before it came to be in history. God is the God who calls the things which do not exist as (already) existing (Rom. 4:17). God promised Abraham that He would give him the promised land and that he would be the father of many descendents. So sure is the fulfillment that sometimes the predictive language is in the past tense, as though it were already accomplished: “To your descendents I “have given” this land” (Gen 15:18). It came to be a common feature of Hebrew thinking that whatever God had decreed already preexisted (in plan and purpose) before it materialized on earth. “When the Jews wished to designate something as predestined, he spoke of it as already existing in heaven".

Scripture tells us that Jesus Christ “was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times” for our sakes who believe in God's word (1Pet. 1:20). This does not mean that Jesus personally preexisted his appearance on earth, because in the same chapter we find that Christians have also been in the “foreknowledge of God the Father” (1Pet. 1:2). The words “foreknowledge” and “foreknown,” noun and verb, are exactly alike. Peter uses precisely the same idea to refer to both Christians and Jesus. Christians do not preexisted heaven before our birth on earth nor did Jesus.

Similarly, the Bible speaks of Jesus as the Lamb of God who was crucified before the world began (Rev.13:8). Every Bible reader of course knows that Jesus was crucified under Pontius Pilate in Palestine in the first century. But God ordained his crucifixion to happen before he even created the universe. Therefore, in God's mind, and in the Hebrew understanding, that which came to be had already been. The prophetic future was spoken of in the past tense. What God has decreed, He says is as good as done.

In John 17, Jesus prays just before his arrest in the garden, “I glorify You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given me to do. And now, glorify me together with Yourself, Father, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.” (v.4-5) If ever there was a statement that proved the personal preexistence of Jesus with the Father in heaven before he came to earth, surely this is it. Once again, we must caution against haste, for “In Biblical ways of speaking and thinking one may ‘have’ something which is promised in God's plan before one actually has its.” We have already seen this principle in operation, where God's plan of promises are spoken in the “prophetic past tense.” God promised Abraham, “I have given you this land.” God says to Christians, “You are seated with Christ in the heavenlies; you are already glorified (Eph. 2:6; Rom.8:30).

We have these things already in the plan and purpose of God -- even though we do not (yet) have them! Scripture tells us that we have eternal life as a present possession, even though clearly we await the day of our entrance into the life of the Age to come, whether by resurrection for those already dead, or the rapture of the living, when Christ returns. God calls the things that are not as though they already exist (Rom. 4:17). Clearly, in Hebrew thinking, the glory which Jesus had “with” God before the world was, it is the glory that it was present in God's mind and purpose from the beginning.

When we examine the rest of Jesus's prayer, it becomes quite clear that the glory Jesus claimed to have had “with the father before the world was” is a glory in prospect. Jesus is using the peculiar Hebrew way of thinking and speaking by which the past tense is employed to speak of the future. To confirm this all we need to do is follow Jesus’ prayer through. Jesus speaks as though he has already accomplished his work: he says I have “accomplished a work which you have gave me to do” (v.4). Quite obviously he has not actually finish the work because his crucifixion has not yet happened, and his cry from the cross, “It is finished,” has not yet been uttered. Next, Jesus speaks as though the disciples have already fully glorified him (through their preaching ministry) even though the resurrection has not yet happened: he prays, “I have been glorified in them” (v.10).

Jesus also says “I am no more in the world” (v.11) even though he clearly is still in the world. In his own mind, he is already, by faith in the father's promise, sitting in heaven having been resurrected. Jesus says he has already sent the disciples into the world to preach: he prays, “I have sent them into the world” (v.18), even though this did not fully happen until after the resurrection... Jesus prays for his disciples, and “for those also who [will] believed in me through their word” (v.20). That is, he prays for subsequent generations of Christians who will come to faith in Christ down the track. He prays that “the glory which You have given me I have given to them (v.22). He prays that all these believers “which you have given me” (the whole future community of faith) may behold my glory, which You have given me; for You did love [choose] me before the foundation of the world (v.24).

One day the Lord Jesus at his second coming will say to his own people, “Come, you who are blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world (Matt 25:34). In Paul’s language this hope is “laid up for you in heaven” which means it is in God’s promise and plan and is certain of fulfillment (Col. 1:5). This hope is so certain that Paul can even speak of Christians as already glorified (Romans 8:29–30, noting the past tense). Indeed, this plan hatched in God’s mind “according to His own purpose in grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity” (2 Tim 1:9). Dunn, in his book, Christology in the Making p238 adds: “The gift was purposed ‘ages ago,’ unless we are to take it that the actual giving and receiving, ‘us’ and ‘Christ Jesus’ were all alike preexistent.” This hope of Christians entering into the age to come was “promised long ages ago” (Tit 1:2). Dunn continues p238.
  1. “Here it is even clearer that what is thought of as happening “ages ago” is God’s promise; and it is that promise of eternal life which has been manifested. Indeed, the text says it is his word that he has manifested - that is, not Christ the Logos, but the word of promise, fulfilled in Christ and offered now back in the kerygma [ message]. In other words, we are back where we started – Christ as the content of the word of preaching, the embodiment of the predetermined plan of salvation, the fulfillment of the divine purpose.”

Your turn... Pinseeker
Paul
 
  • Like
Reactions: Matthias

Pierac

Active Member
Nov 15, 2021
756
159
43
61
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I like Paul's healthy attitude-
"I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself.
My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time" (1 Corinthians 4:3)

So like I said, only God knows if we shape up in his eyes..:)

Come on Dropship.... It's not about if we shape up... It's about the chosen!!!

Luk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me.

Mat 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

Luk 9:35 Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!"

Who is the chosen one... You know... more than others... Dropship!

Joh 13:18 "I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'HE WHO EATS MY BREAD HAS LIFTED UP HIS HEEL AGAINST ME.'

So dropship... does Jesus speak of you or me...?

1Co 1:27 but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong,

Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Suxs to be chosen in this world... as you well know!
Paul
 
Last edited:

PinSeeker

Well-Known Member
Oct 4, 2021
2,534
691
113
Nashville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jewish “Ideal” Preexistence
In the English language, and certainly the way young people speak, we often speak about something that happened in the past as though it is happening in the present. For instance, a witness to a bank robbery might say, “And here I am standing in line minding my own business, when bursting through the door comes as a hooded bank robber. He tells us all to get on the floor. He waves his gun around and threatens us. Then he goes up to the teller and yells, ‘Give me the money!’” We understand the events described occurred in the past, even though the narrative is in the present. Speaking of past events in the present is a peculiarity of the English language.

Most languages have peculiarities. The Hebrew mind and language has a peculiarity that English speakers are not accustomed to. They do the opposite of what I have just described. They often use the past tense or the present tense to speak of events yet future. The reason is that the Jews believed that whatever was determined in the mind of God existed before it came to be in history. God is the God who calls the things which do not exist as (already) existing (Rom. 4:17). God promised Abraham that He would give him the promised land and that he would be the father of many descendents. So sure is the fulfillment that sometimes the predictive language is in the past tense, as though it were already accomplished: “To your descendents I “have given” this land” (Gen 15:18). It came to be a common feature of Hebrew thinking that whatever God had decreed already preexisted (in plan and purpose) before it materialized on earth. “When the Jews wished to designate something as predestined, he spoke of it as already existing in heaven".

Scripture tells us that Jesus Christ “was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times” for our sakes who believe in God's word (1Pet. 1:20). This does not mean that Jesus personally preexisted his appearance on earth, because in the same chapter we find that Christians have also been in the “foreknowledge of God the Father” (1Pet. 1:2). The words “foreknowledge” and “foreknown,” noun and verb, are exactly alike. Peter uses precisely the same idea to refer to both Christians and Jesus. Christians do not preexisted heaven before our birth on earth nor did Jesus.

Similarly, the Bible speaks of Jesus as the Lamb of God who was crucified before the world began (Rev.13:8). Every Bible reader of course knows that Jesus was crucified under Pontius Pilate in Palestine in the first century. But God ordained his crucifixion to happen before he even created the universe. Therefore, in God's mind, and in the Hebrew understanding, that which came to be had already been. The prophetic future was spoken of in the past tense. What God has decreed, He says is as good as done.

In John 17, Jesus prays just before his arrest in the garden, “I glorify You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given me to do. And now, glorify me together with Yourself, Father, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.” (v.4-5) If ever there was a statement that proved the personal preexistence of Jesus with the Father in heaven before he came to earth, surely this is it. Once again, we must caution against haste, for “In Biblical ways of speaking and thinking one may ‘have’ something which is promised in God's plan before one actually has its.” We have already seen this principle in operation, where God's plan of promises are spoken in the “prophetic past tense.” God promised Abraham, “I have given you this land.” God says to Christians, “You are seated with Christ in the heavenlies; you are already glorified (Eph. 2:6; Rom.8:30).

We have these things already in the plan and purpose of God -- even though we do not (yet) have them! Scripture tells us that we have eternal life as a present possession, even though clearly we await the day of our entrance into the life of the Age to come, whether by resurrection for those already dead, or the rapture of the living, when Christ returns. God calls the things that are not as though they already exist (Rom. 4:17). Clearly, in Hebrew thinking, the glory which Jesus had “with” God before the world was, it is the glory that it was present in God's mind and purpose from the beginning.

When we examine the rest of Jesus's prayer, it becomes quite clear that the glory Jesus claimed to have had “with the father before the world was” is a glory in prospect. Jesus is using the peculiar Hebrew way of thinking and speaking by which the past tense is employed to speak of the future. To confirm this all we need to do is follow Jesus’ prayer through. Jesus speaks as though he has already accomplished his work: he says I have “accomplished a work which you have gave me to do” (v.4). Quite obviously he has not actually finish the work because his crucifixion has not yet happened, and his cry from the cross, “It is finished,” has not yet been uttered. Next, Jesus speaks as though the disciples have already fully glorified him (through their preaching ministry) even though the resurrection has not yet happened: he prays, “I have been glorified in them” (v.10).

Jesus also says “I am no more in the world” (v.11) even though he clearly is still in the world. In his own mind, he is already, by faith in the father's promise, sitting in heaven having been resurrected. Jesus says he has already sent the disciples into the world to preach: he prays, “I have sent them into the world” (v.18), even though this did not fully happen until after the resurrection... Jesus prays for his disciples, and “for those also who [will] believed in me through their word” (v.20). That is, he prays for subsequent generations of Christians who will come to faith in Christ down the track. He prays that “the glory which You have given me I have given to them (v.22). He prays that all these believers “which you have given me” (the whole future community of faith) may behold my glory, which You have given me; for You did love [choose] me before the foundation of the world (v.24).

One day the Lord Jesus at his second coming will say to his own people, “Come, you who are blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world (Matt 25:34). In Paul’s language this hope is “laid up for you in heaven” which means it is in God’s promise and plan and is certain of fulfillment (Col. 1:5). This hope is so certain that Paul can even speak of Christians as already glorified (Romans 8:29–30, noting the past tense). Indeed, this plan hatched in God’s mind “according to His own purpose in grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity” (2 Tim 1:9). Dunn, in his book, Christology in the Making p238 adds: “The gift was purposed ‘ages ago,’ unless we are to take it that the actual giving and receiving, ‘us’ and ‘Christ Jesus’ were all alike preexistent.” This hope of Christians entering into the age to come was “promised long ages ago” (Tit 1:2). Dunn continues p238.
  1. “Here it is even clearer that what is thought of as happening “ages ago” is God’s promise; and it is that promise of eternal life which has been manifested. Indeed, the text says it is his word that he has manifested - that is, not Christ the Logos, but the word of promise, fulfilled in Christ and offered now back in the kerygma [ message]. In other words, we are back where we started – Christ as the content of the word of preaching, the embodiment of the predetermined plan of salvation, the fulfillment of the divine purpose.”
There is... some... good, here. Some... :)

Your turn... Pinseeker
Paul
No thanks. I'll just re-post a few things I said earlier, and that should be quite sufficient. Oh, and, these are my own words, rather than mindless C&Ps...

"That Jesus is the Son of God is not disputed. But Jesus is also, JohnPaul, the Son of Man, as He Himself said. So, the question(s) then is (are), is He neither God nor man, and thus... something else? Or is He both?"

"As the Son of God and the Son of Man, Jesus, during His life on earth, was both in the form of God and in the form of man. He is God ~ always was and always will be; He never changes, as Hebrews 13:8 says ~ but took on, for a time, the form of man for our sake, accomplishing redemption for us by His death on the cross. This is how it is possible for Him to be, what qualifies Him as, our Mediator. If He were not God in the flesh, if in Him the whole fullness of deity had not dwelt bodily, we would not be born again but still dead in our sins and without hope of redemption."

"...when the Watchtower manufactures exceptions, that's cool. LOL!" :)

Grace and peace to you, Pierac.
 

Dropship

Well-Known Member
Jun 2, 2022
2,213
1,514
113
76
Plymouth UK
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Come on Dropship.... It's not about if we shape up... It's about the chosen!!!
Who is the chosen one
... You know... more than others... Dropship!
So dropship... does Jesus speak of you or me...?

Only God knows..:)
There are plenty of christians going around thinking "I'm chosen, I'm OSAS, I'm saved etc" but many will be in for a shock on judgment day..;)
Jesus said- "..Then I'll tell them plainly, I never knew you, get away from me" (Matthew 7:21-23)
I might or might not be among them myself, I just don't know, none of us do..:)
For example the "christian" bosses of the Welsh Presbyterian Church have just evicted this lady so they can sell her home to make money, yet no doubt they think they're heaven-bound regardless-

evictd.jpg
 

keithr

Well-Known Member
Dec 4, 2020
1,544
413
83
Dorset
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Scripture tells us that Jesus Christ “was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times” for our sakes who believe in God's word (1Pet. 1:20). This does not mean that Jesus personally preexisted his appearance on earth, because in the same chapter we find that Christians have also been in the “foreknowledge of God the Father” (1Pet. 1:2). The words “foreknowledge” and “foreknown,” noun and verb, are exactly alike. Peter uses precisely the same idea to refer to both Christians and Jesus. Christians do not preexisted heaven before our birth on earth nor did Jesus.

Your turn... Pinseeker
As Pinseeker has chosen not to reply, I'll make a comment. You seem to be implying that Jesus did not exist before he was born as a man, so how do you harmonise that with the following verses?

Colossians 1:16 (WEB):

(16) For by him [Jesus] all things were created, in the heavens and on the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and for him.

Hebrews 1:2,8,10 (WEB):

(2) has at the end of these days spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds.
(8) But of the Son he says, ...
(10) And, “You, Lord, in the beginning, laid the foundation of the earth. The heavens are the works of your hands.

John 8:58 (ASV):

(58) Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was born, I am. [I have been, or I have existed]​
 

Pierac

Active Member
Nov 15, 2021
756
159
43
61
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
As Pinseeker has chosen not to reply, I'll make a comment. You seem to be implying that Jesus did not exist before he was born as a man, so how do you harmonise that with the following verses?

Colossians 1:16 (WEB):

(16) For by him [Jesus] all things were created, in the heavens and on the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and for him.

So, Keithr... You want to throw your Hat into the ring... Remember.... we only get 10,000 words to comment... So let's go with Colossians 1:16....


The various popular English translation are at odds as to whether the Son is "the first-born over all creation" (as in the NIV and NK JV), thus first in rank, or whether he is "the firstborn of all creation" (which reflects a literal translation of the genitive case, as in the KJV, RV and NASB), meaning first in time, which would refer to Christ being the first-created being of creation.

We evidently need the wider context to determine which nuance fits best. It is clear that Paul continues his line of thought in the next verse, as he uses the conjunction “for”: "For in Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities- all things have been created through him and for him" (v.16).
Jesus never claimed credit for the original Genesis creation of the heavens and the earth.
He was in no doubt that the universe was God's handiwork.

Mat 19:4 He answered, "Have you not read that he (God) who created them from the beginning made them male and female,
Remember Jesus has a God…"Blessed be God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Peter 1:3).

Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, (1Co 8:6)

Mar 13:19 For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God (my Father) created until now, and never will be.

Hebrews 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word (ῥῆμα/ rhēma) of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.

Please note that the word used here is not Logos as it is used in John 1 but rhēma .

Observe in Colossians 1 that "all things" created are not “the heavens and the earth” as per Genesis 1:1, but rather “all things in the heavens and [up]on the earth." These things are defined as "thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities." Evidently, Jesus has been given authority to restructure the arrangements of angels as well as being the agent for the creation of the body of Christ on earth, the Church.

This is the thought as we soon shall see in Hebrews 1 where the Angels are told to worship the Son. It is also the thought that Peter mentions in 1 Peter 3:21-22 where, after “the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who he is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to him, " it is the new Messianic order that God has brought in through Christ the Son that is under discussion. Just before his ascension into heaven at the father's right hand of power, Jesus declares that "all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me" (Matt.28:18). His resurrection has Jesus a new status, "far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in the one to come" (Eph.1:21).

All of this is to reiterate that this hymn of praise concerns the new order of things that now exist since the resurrection of the Son. An eschatological shift of the ages has begun with Christ’s exaltation to the Father's right hand. God has "put all things in subjection under his [the resurrected Christ’s] feet" (Eph. 1-22). Paul repeats this thought in the next chapter of Colossians: "and he is the head over [or of] all rule and authority" (Col 2:10). In the words we looked at in Philippians 2, God has rewarded Jesus’ obedient death on the cross by highly exalting him, and bestowing on him "the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Phil 2:8-10).

It is highly significant that in verse 18 Jesus attains to a supreme position, meaning that it he did not have it already. Thus he cannot have preexisted as God. If he did his final status would be more of a demotion than the promotion described by Paul.

If Jesus was God in the flesh then it is impossible to be a man. He would have been something entirely else. Not a man. This is why Jesus has to learn wisdom, Luke 2:40, Luke 2:52. God is all knowing. He does not need to learn anything. Paul tells us Jesus is a priest after the order of Melchizedek, and something else.


Heb 5:6 "You are a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek." 5 In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. 8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered.

It is an insult to say that God learned obedience! Jesus learned obedience because he was a man, a man like you and me not a hybrid. Most fail to understand the concept of Agency. When you kiss the Agent of the one sent, you are actually kissing the one whom the Agent represents. When you worship Jesus you are actually worshiping the One who sent Him. Thus Jesus comments

NASB Joh 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.

Joh 12:49 "For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.

T
here is no God in the flesh hybrid (Theos aner) in these verses.

If Jesus is already God in the flesh then He can not have a God because it would be two Gods not one. Yet, scripture clearly tell us he does have a God, both before and after His resurrection. Philippians 4:20; Ephesians 4:6; John 20:17; Matthew 27:46; Revelation 3:12; Revelation 3:2.

One issue is God can not die. So if Jesus was God then he would have had to pretend to die and thus there would not be any forgiveness of sin because he really didn't die.

Let's see who can forgive sins.

Mat 9:2 And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven."

Mat 9:6 "But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins"--then He said to the paralytic, "Get up, pick up your bed and go home."

Mar 2:7 "Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?"

John 20:21 So Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you." 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them,"Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 "If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."

Jesus never forgave sins before He was anointed with God's Spirit. And now the Apostles have the ability to forgive sins, once again only after Jesus gave them the Holy Spirit. The Apostles are now Agents of Jesus the Christ and "have authority on earth to forgive sins". How? Because as the Father has sent Me, I also send you


Hebrews 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word (ῥῆμα/ rhēma) of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.

Again please note that the word used here is not Logos.

Eph 3:9 and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things;

Rev 4:11 "Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created."

You have much to learn... keithr
Paul
 

Pierac

Active Member
Nov 15, 2021
756
159
43
61
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There is... some... good, here. Some... :)


No thanks. I'll just re-post a few things I said earlier, and that should be quite sufficient. Oh, and, these are my own words, rather than mindless C&Ps...

"That Jesus is the Son of God is not disputed. But Jesus is also, JohnPaul, the Son of Man, as He Himself said. So, the question(s) then is (are), is He neither God nor man, and thus... something else? Or is He both?"

"As the Son of God and the Son of Man, Jesus, during His life on earth, was both in the form of God and in the form of man. He is God ~ always was and always will be; He never changes, as Hebrews 13:8 says ~ but took on, for a time, the form of man for our sake, accomplishing redemption for us by His death on the cross. This is how it is possible for Him to be, what qualifies Him as, our Mediator. If He were not God in the flesh, if in Him the whole fullness of deity had not dwelt bodily, we would not be born again but still dead in our sins and without hope of redemption."

"...when the Watchtower manufactures exceptions, that's cool. LOL!" :)

Grace and peace to you, Pierac.

I know not of any Watchtower!

But... I do know of Agency!


The foundation of our Bible is the OT. It contains the first three-quarters of our Bible. It stands to reason that if we misunderstand this Hebrew foundation then we construct a system of error. The art of successful reading is generally to let the last quarter of a book agree with the first three-quarters. As the grand finale of the Bible, the NT agrees with and is consistent with its OT heritage. It might sound like an over-simplification to say that the Bible is a Hebrew book and must be approached through “Hebrew eyes;” however, it was written within the culture and thought-forms of the Middle East. In order to understand its message we must become familiar with the thought-forms, the idioms, the culture and the customs of those who lived in Biblical times. Every sincere reader of the Bible understands this. Doing it is the challenge.

H. N. Snaith in his book, “The Distinctive Ideas of the Old Testament,” writes “Christianity itself has tended to suffer from a translation out of the Prophets and into Plato.” (p161) “Our position is that the reinterpretation of Biblical theology in terms of the ideas of the Greek philosophers has been both a widespread throughout the centuries and everywhere destructive to the essence of the Christian faith.” (p187.). Snaith also makes this remark that if his “thesis” is correct:… “then neither Catholic nor Protestant theology is based on Biblical theology. In each case we have a denomination of Christian theology by Greek thought… We hold that there can be no right (theology) until we have come to a clear view of the distinctive ideas of both Old and New Testaments and their differences from the pagan ideas which have so largely dominated Christian thought.” (p188.).

With the passing of many centuries since Scriptures were written much of the original intent has been buried under the accretions of generations of human tradition. According to some scholars a lot of Bible confusion can be cleared up by understanding “The Principle of Agency.”

A common feature of the Hebrew Bible is the concept (some even call it the “law”) of Jewish agency. All Old Testament scholars and commentators recognize that in Jewish custom whenever a superior commissioned an agent to act on his behalf, the agent was regarded as the person himself. This is well expressed in the Encyclopedia of the Jewish religion.
Thus in Hebrew custom whenever an agent was sent to act for his master it was as though that lord himself was acting and speaking. An equivalent in our culture to the Jewish custom of agency would be one who is authorized to act as Power of Attorney, or more strongly one who is given Enduring Power of Attorney. Such an agent has virtually unlimited powers to act on behalf of the one who appointed him.

Let's look at one of the stories in the Old Testament with this new mindset. In the story of Moses and the burning bush in Exodus 3, “who” is it who appears to Moses and talked to him? My answer once was typical of the vast majority in the Church. Of course it was God himself, Yahweh, who spoke to Moses. After all, the text states that “’God’ called to him from the midst of the bush and ‘said’, ‘Moses, Moses!’” (v4).

Verse 6 is even more convincing when the same speaker says, “’I am’ the ‘God’ of your father, ‘the God’ of Abraham, ‘the God’ of Isaac, and ‘the God’ of Jacob.’ Then Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at ‘God’.” Surely it was Jehovah God himself who appear to Moses and who personally spoke? But what do we make of verse 2 that prefaces this narrative by stating that “’the angel of the LORD’ appeared” to Moses from the midst of the bush? Many scholars have declared this angel to be God himself, even the pre-existing Christ. They make much of the definitive article and point out that this was a particular angel not just any angel.
This is a fancy bit of footwork that disregards the Hebrew text as we shall see. If we turn to the New Testament’s commentary on this incident, we will see how Hebrews understood their own Scriptures.

Let us now turn to answer our question: Who is it who appears to Moses and talks to him? The martyr Stephen was a man “filled with the Holy Spirit.” Let's listen to his commentary on the burning bush incident. He clearly states that it was “an angel who appeared to him in the wilderness of Mount Sinai, in the flame of a burning bush” (Acts 7:30) As Moses approached this phenomenon, “there came the voice of the Lord: I am the God of your father. The Lord said to him, ‘Take off the sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground. (31-33).

Quite clearly this is an example of agency. It is an angel who appears to Moses and it is the angel who speaks. But note that this angel evens speaks for God in the first person. The angel of the Lord says, “I am God.” The angel is distinguished from God yet identified with him. In Hebrew eyes, it is perfectly natural to consider the agent as the person himself. In Hebrew thought, homage given to God's agent or representative is homage ultimately given to God Himself.

Let's look at just one more example. In Acts 12, the apostle Peter is in jail about to be executed. But while he was asleep, “behold, an angel of the Lord suddenly appeared, and a light shone in the cell; and he struck Peter’s side and roused him, saying, ‘Get up quickly.’ And his chains fell off his hands. And the angel said to him, ‘Gird yourself and put on your sandals… and follow me’” (Acts 12:7-8). Peter thought he was dreaming. As he followed the angel past the guards, out through the iron gate which “opened for them by itself,” Peter “did not know what was being ‘done by the “angel”’ was real, but thought he was seeing a vision”(v.9).

So who really did get Peter out of jail? The angel or the Lord? The text says both did. But we know that the Lord sent the angel to do the actual work. To the Hebrew mind, it was really the Lord who rescued Peter.

There are many such OT examples. An agent of God is actually referred to as God, or the Lord himself. In Genesis 31:11-13 Jacobs said to his wives, “’The angel’ of God ‘said’ to me in a dream…’I am the God’ of Bethel.” Here is an angel speaking as though he was God Himself. He speaks in the first person: “I am the God of Bethel.” Jacob was comfortable with this concept of agency.

In the next chapter, Jacob wrestled with “a man” until dawn, but he says he had “seen God face to face” (Gen 32:24-30). So was at this time when God appear to Jacob as a man? Perhaps as some have suggested it was actually the Lord Jesus himself, as the second member of the triune God, who wrestled with Jacob.

Not at all according to Hosea 12:3-4 which says, “As a man he [Jacob] struggled with God; he struggled with “the angel” and overcame him. So the one who is called both “a man” and “God” in Genesis is identified as an angel in Hosea. This is a perfect example of Jewish agency where the agent is considered as the principal.

There is another instance of agency in Exodus 7. God tells Moses he will make him “God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet” (Exodus 7:1). Moses is to stand before the king of Egypt with the full authority and backing of heaven itself. Then God says, By this you shall know that I am the LORD: behold, I will strike the water that is in the Nile with the staff that is in “My hand”, and it shall be turned to blood” (v.17). But observe carefully that just two verses later the LORD says to Moses, “Say to Aaron, take your staff and stretch out your hand over the waters of Egypt… that they may become blood” (v.19). God says He Himself will strike the waters with the staff in His own hand. Yet, it was Aaron’s hand that actually held the rod. Aaron is standing as God's agent in the very place of God himself. There is identification of the agent with his Principle. In Biblical terms, Moses and Aaron are “God” (Heb. elohim) to Pharaoh!

Part 1
Paul
 

Pierac

Active Member
Nov 15, 2021
756
159
43
61
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Part 2

Sometimes this concept of agency has caused the translators of our Bible difficulties. The Hebrew word for “God”(elohim) has a wide range of meanings. Depending on context, it can mean the Supreme Deity, or “a god” or “gods” or even “angels” or human “judges.” This difficulty is reflected in verses like Exodus 21:6


The KJV reads… “Then his master shall bring him unto the judges;”

The NIV reads… “then his master must take him before the judges.”

But

The NASB reads… “then his master shall bring him to God”

So too the RSV… “then his master shall bring him to God”


Clearly, because the judges of Israel represented God as His agents, they are called “God,” elohim. As the slave gave his vow before these representatives of God, he was in fact making a binding vow before Jehovah. The agents were as God.

Another example that we have time for in this brief overview, is in Judges 6:11-22. “The angel of the LORD came and sat under the oak tree while Gideon was threshing wheat”. As ‘the angel of the LORD appeared to him,’ he greeted Gideon with the words, “The LORD is with you, O valiant warrior.” We can hear Gideon's disbelief when he says to the angel, “Oh my lord, if the LORD is with us, why then has all this happened to us?” Now notice a change in the text at Judges 6:14: “And the LORD looked at him and said, ‘Go in this your strength and deliver Israel from the hand of Midian. Have not I sent you?” At this point Gideon murmurs and throws up excuses as to why he could not rescue Israel from their enemies. “But the LORD said to him, ‘Surely I will be with you, and you shall defeat Midian as one man.’” Notice how the angel who is speaking on God's behalf actually uses the first person personal pronoun. And the text clearly says that when the angel looked at Gideon it was God himself who looked at him: And the LORD looked at him.” Gideon is not confused regarding who he is looking at or who is speaking to him. For as “the angel of the LORD vanished from his site,” he exclaimed, “I have seen the angel of the LORD face-to-face.” (V.22). We know that the angel of the LORD is the agent and not literally God, because the Scriptures are absolutely clear that no one has ever seen God himself (John 1:18; 1 Tim 6:16; 1 John 4:12). Many scholars have failed to take this very Hebrew way of looking at things into account. They have literally identified the angel of the LORD with God Himself. All confusion is dissipated when we understand the Jewish law of agency: “a person’s agent is regarded as the person himself.” So was this “Angel of the Lord” actually “the Lord” — that is, Yahweh himself? The answer is no! This angelic personality appeared only “in the name” of Yahweh (as he had done to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob); He was simply acting with power of attorney to carry out the commands of Yahweh. The Jews have long recognized this fact. Jewish authorities record in their Mishnah of the third century that “a man’s agent is as himself” (Berekoth 6:6). And this same principle of interpretation applied to matters dealing with God.

There is one very clear OT example of Hebrew Principle of Agency. It comes from Deuteronomy 29. Moses summons all of Israel and says to them, "You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh and all his servants and all his land; the great trials which your eyes have seen, those great signs and wonders" (v.2-3). Moses continues to recite for the people all that God has done for them. But notice that in verse 6, while still reciting all God's wonders, Moses suddenly changes to the first person and says, "You have not eaten bread, nor have you drunk wine or strong drink, in order that you might know that I am the LORD your God." It is obvious that God himself is not personally speaking to the people. Moses is preaching. But Moses as the agent of God can speak as though he is the Lord himself. What is happening here? God is speaking through His man, His appointed representative. Therefore, he can move from speaking in the third person, “the LORD did this and that for you" to the first person: "I am the LORD your God doing this and that."


Knowing this principle helps us with other apparent difficulties, even seeming contradictions through the Scriptures. Lets look at one New Testament example. The story that has created a problem to many minds is the one concerning the healing of the Centurion’s servant. In Matthew's account (Matt 8:5-13), it is the Centurion himself who comes to Jesus and begs him to heal his servant. The Centurion himself says, "Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, suffering great pain" (v.6).


However, the parallel account in Luke (Luke 7:1-10) states that the Centurion did not personally go and speak to Jesus. He actually sent or commissioned as his agents “some Jewish elders.” These Jewish elders pleaded with Jesus on behalf of the Centurion saying, "He is worthy for you to grant this to him; for he loves our nation, and it was he who built us our synagogue" (v.4-5)

So who actually went to Jesus here? Did these gospel writers get confused? Are the detractors perhaps right to say that the Bible is full of errors and contradictions? Not at all! The difficulty is cleared up when we understand the Hebrew mind behind these Scriptures. The answer to who actually stood before Jesus is the elders. They had been sent by the Centurion. Matthew in typical Hebrew idiom has the Centurion himself there and speaking in the first person before Jesus. The agent is as the principal himself.


Jesus claimed to represent God like no other before or after him. He claimed to be the unique spokesman for God his Father and to speak the ultimate words of God. He claimed to act in total accord and harmony with God like no other. He claimed to be the Son of God, the Christ or Messiah, and the agent of the Father. The NT claims that he who sees Jesus sees the Father. He who hears Jesus the Son hears the words of God Himself.


The New Testament puts this theory about the angel of the Lord being Jesus in his preexistence to rest in Hebrews 1: “God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son” (v 1-2).

So, the Son of God “did not speak” in the Old Testament days! Back in those days God spoke in various ways and only in “portions,” whether by vision or by prophet or by angel. It is only since Jesus Christ was brought into existence at birth and appeared “in these last days” that we have heard God speak “in his Son.” This is axiomatic. Jesus Christ was not God's messenger before his appearance as a man, born of Mary in history. Look at the scriptures:

Act 7:53 you who received the law as ordained by angels, and yet did not keep it."

Gal 3:19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

Heb 2:2 For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty,



Now let's review one last example and look at Exodus 23:20-23. Notice 'my name is in him!' (agency)


"Behold, I send an angel before thee, to keep thee by the way ... Take ye heed of him, and hearken unto his voice; provoke him not (be not rebellious against him): for he will not pardon your transgression; for my name is in him" "But if you truly obey his voice and do all that I say, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. "For My angel will go before you… (Exodus 23:20-23).

In this passage the angel was to be for Israel in the place of God; he was to speak God's words, and judge them. In fact the angel expressed God's name; he was God for them. Now if this was true of an angel of the Lord, how much more of the Son of God himself? Hence these sayings:

"This is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent ... I (Jesus) have manifested thy name unto (the disciples) ... Holy Father, keep in thy name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one" (John 17:3,6,11).

"I and my Father are one" (John 10:30).

Jesus, then, enjoyed a unity of mind and Spirit with the Father, so that he could say, "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father" (John 14:9). For the disciples Jesus was in the place of God; he spoke God's words, proclaimed God's truth, and pronounced His judgements.

Hebrews 1:1 makes more sense now:
God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world (ages).

[The Net bible adds… The temporal (ages) came to be used of the spatial (what exists in those time periods). See Heb_11:3 for the same usage.]

Heb 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds (ages) were prepared by the word (ρημα G4487) of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.

Jesus had every right to claim to be God because God was in Him doing His works.

"Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which god performed through him in your midst" (Acts 2:22).


PinSeeker needs to learn...Not all of God's childern follow men like Him... You need to learn the Watchtower is of men and will not help you to understand the truth... You need to leave that Cult!
Paul
 

Pierac

Active Member
Nov 15, 2021
756
159
43
61
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Only God knows..:)
There are plenty of christians going around thinking "I'm chosen, I'm OSAS, I'm saved etc" but many will be in for a shock on judgment day..;)
Jesus said- "..Then I'll tell them plainly, I never knew you, get away from me" (Matthew 7:21-23)
I might or might not be among them myself, I just don't know, none of us do..:)
For example the "christian" bosses of the Welsh Presbyterian Church have just evicted this lady so they can sell her home to make money, yet no doubt they think they're heaven-bound regardless-

View attachment 24801
I like you!!! You see the same as me in these matters! We have no say, and we know it!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dropship

PinSeeker

Well-Known Member
Oct 4, 2021
2,534
691
113
Nashville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I've heard enough from you, Peirac, so I'm skipping over everything you wrote except this:

You need to learn the Watchtower is of men and will not help you to understand the truth... You need to leave that Cult! Paul
I am encouraged to hear that you're not a Jehovah's Witness, but there are other groups of folks that believe along the same cultic lines that they do, and you seem to be... in one of those. Grace and peace to you.