Can A Person Be a Christian And A Sinner At The Same Time ?

Angelina · Jan 30, 2012

HeRoseFromTheDead, on 30 January 2012 - 06:45 AM, said:
Well that's correct. When/If that person sins again, what causes him to commit the sin? His old or new nature?

Born-again believers are those who walk according to the Spirit and have crucified the flesh and it's lusts. Romans 8:5, 6, 7, 8, 9-10, 11. However, there has always been a battle for sovereignty between soul and spirit as noted in Galatians 5:16, 17. When we drop into our soul, we can become easily enticed by sin. James 1:14,15 When we sin, we must repent. 1 John 1:9...so I would say our old nature [old man]...

Blessings!!!

Phillip · Jan 30, 2012

Thank you Jesus for delivering me from sinning and having translated me into your Kingdom of Heaven where I am an obedient servant of righteousness in love and joy and peace!
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
(Rom 6:15) What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
(Rom 6:16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
(Rom 6:17) But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
(Rom 6:18) Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
(Rom 6:19) I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
(Rom 6:20) For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
(Rom 6:21) What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
(Rom 6:22) But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
(Rom 6:23) For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Lively Stone · Jan 30, 2012

Angelina said:
You have no idea what you are talking about... :huh:

The Holy Spirit would not be given to mere tasters...
The Holy Spirit is the seal of our approval, the guarantee of our redemption. 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5, Ephesians 1:14 These believers had the Holy Spirit dwelling in them just as he dwells in all believers.

In Hebrews 6:4-9 the writer is talking to Jewish believers who have come from following the law. Paul was admonishing them if they turned back to their old ways. BTW: The Holy Spirit cannot be tested in this way. note: Hebrews 6:4 again.

"For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit"

The same fate can fall on anyone of us as it could on them. We are not exempt from falling away. Repentance is the key if we sin because without repentance, those who sin will remain that way. "Sin separates us from God"

Shalom!!!

I am sorry you think I know nothing, but the fact is, I do. I know there are many people who 'share' the benefits of salvation with other believers but are not believers themselves. Tares are mostly undetectable.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jan 30, 2012

Episkopos said:
His conditioning and divided heart.

And which nature does his conditioning and divided heart belong to? The old, or new nature?

Angelina · Jan 30, 2012

I am sorry you think I know nothing, but the fact is, I do. I know there are many people who 'share' the benefits of salvation with other believers but are not believers themselves. Tares are mostly undetectable.

Ohhh I think that people can work that out for themselves just by reading this thread. The Holy Spirit will not enter/ dwell in a non -believer, period!

Acts 2
[sup]38[/sup] Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. [sup]39[/sup] The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

Shalom!!!

Lively Stone · Jan 30, 2012

Angelina said:
Ohhh I think that people can work that out for themselves just by reading this thread. The Holy Spirit will not enter/ dwell in a non -believer, period!

Acts 2
[sup]38[/sup] Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. [sup]39[/sup] The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

Shalom!!!

It is a given that Holy Spirit does not dwell in a heart that has never opened to Jesus Christ.

Episkopos · Jan 30, 2012

HeRoseFromTheDead said:
And which nature does his conditioning and divided heart belong to? The old, or new nature?

One can still sin in the new nature...we just can't sin when we abide in Christ.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jan 30, 2012

Episkopos said:
One can still sin in the new nature...we just can't sin when we abide in Christ.

That is so true.

Angelina · Jan 30, 2012

It is a given that Holy Spirit does not dwell in a heart that has never opened to Jesus Christ.

Then why say that they can? your quote post #157

Hebrews 6:4-9
4 For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come— 6 and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame. 7 When the ground soaks up the falling rain and bears a good crop for the farmer, it has God’s blessing. 8 But if a field bears thorns and thistles, it is useless. The farmer will soon condemn that field and burn it. 9 Dear friends, even though we are talking this way, we really don’t believe it applies to you. We are confident that you are meant for better things, things that come with salvation.

Those who are 'enlightened' and 'experience good things of heaven' and 'have tasted the goodness of the word of God' are not necessarily true believers who have received salvation but are mere tasters. This is a heart condition that only God can judge, as is told in Christ's description of the wheat and the tares.

I will not be discussing this topic with you any further as it does not serve any purpose but to cause further confusion to the readers...If a born-again believer sins, you have an advocate to the Father our Lord Jesus Christ. If you repent and confess your sins, he will forgive you and cleanse you from unrighteousness...it is that simple. If you do not repent and confess your sins...your sins remain. "Sin separates you from God".

Shalom!!!

Lively Stone · Jan 30, 2012

Sin cannot separate a true believer from God under the new covenant...nothing can. A believer who sins doesn't lose his citizenship in the Kingdom, but he does lose out on fellowship with God.

us2are1 · Jan 30, 2012

Angelina said:
I will not be discussing this topic with you any further as it does not serve any purpose but to cause further confusion to the readers...If a born-again believer sins, you have an advocate to the Father our Lord Jesus Christ. If you repent and confess your sins, he will forgive you and cleanse you from unrighteousness...it is that simple. If you do not repent and confess your sins...your sins remain. "Sin separates you from God".

Shalom!!!

Amen Angelina

That is exactly what the word of God tells us.

Lively Stone · Jan 30, 2012

Every believer will see Jesus one day with some sin on them. We cannot remember every single sin we have ever committed to confess. Some people commit sins and don't receive the message from the Holy Spirit, or ignore Him that it is sin, or not what God wants from them. Will they be condemned? No. They lose out on intimacy with God in life, and will lose out on rewards in the Kingdom after death.

Sin separating us from God is Old Covenant thinking.

jiggyfly · Jan 31, 2012

Lively Stone said:
Sin separating us from God is Old Covenant thinking.

I agree, Paul said; 38 And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love.39 No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 8:38-39 (NLT)

HammerStone · Jan 31, 2012

I think there is a dangerous error going on here. It's one thing to acknowledge and accept that there are certain clear paradoxes in the Bible that make us look at them harder, but I can refute the last couple posts with two passages of Scripture:

Hebrews 10:26-31
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Before the objection is raised that the phrase "knowledge of the truth" is rejected as just knowledge as in saying "I heard about Jesus, and reject his offer," let's let the Bible do the talking on it:

I Timothy 2:3-4
This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Several letters were written by Paul himself dealing with churches that had gone astray. If that was not a danger, then rather clearly, the letters would never have been written.

As to the argument about a line-item-veto-style of repentence for sin - I don't think Angelina is arguing that we need to go back to when we were 14 years old and our eyes wondered a little too much on that attractive dude or chick. That's attempting to polarize the argument that it has to be one way or the other. Salvation is not just a one off "I'm sorry God" moment where we are forgiven. A relationship with Jesus is a daily relationship and a continual struggle as Paul illustrated. Our sins are blotted out, but that's not license to rack 'em up in the meantime. There is no divine "just kidding" on the whole hell part.

goodshepard55 · Jan 31, 2012

Good post HammerStone...Amen

Lively Stone · Jan 31, 2012

HammerStone said:
I think there is a dangerous error going on here. It's one thing to acknowledge and accept that there are certain clear paradoxes in the Bible that make us look at them harder, but I can refute the last couple posts with two passages of Scripture:

Hebrews 10:26-31
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Before the objection is raised that the phrase "knowledge of the truth" is rejected as just knowledge as in saying "I heard about Jesus, and reject his offer," let's let the Bible do the talking on it:

I Timothy 2:3-4
This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Several letters were written by Paul himself dealing with churches that had gone astray. If that was not a danger, then rather clearly, the letters would never have been written.

As to the argument about a line-item-veto-style of repentence for sin - I don't think Angelina is arguing that we need to go back to when we were 14 years old and our eyes wondered a little too much on that attractive dude or chick. That's attempting to polarize the argument that it has to be one way or the other. Salvation is not just a one off "I'm sorry God" moment where we are forgiven. A relationship with Jesus is a daily relationship and a continual struggle as Paul illustrated. Our sins are blotted out, but that's not license to rack 'em up in the meantime. There is no divine "just kidding" on the whole hell part.

I agree with this, yet cannot see how it refutes anything that has just been previously posted. Perhaps the continuing to 'deliberately sin' is a sticking point? People who are redeemed and desiring to walk in the ways of Jesus Christ do not want to sin, for they have been regenerated and sin is now repulsive.

aspen · Jan 31, 2012

What I have discovered from this conversation is that everyone basically agrees with each other.

1. Our sins are washed away and forgotten by God when we are justified

2. Christians are called to no longer live in sin.

3. If we as Christians accept that Christians can still sin, it may give license for Christians to continue sinning.

4. Christians are called to confess.

Furthermore, it looks to me like, this conversation has moved beyond whether a Christian can still sin and moved into an argument about once saved, always saved.

ajdiamond · Jan 31, 2012

Angelina said:
"Sin separates you from God".

Hi Angelina,

This is simply not true. Where can you go that you are separate from the Omnipresent Father? Where have you ever been that you've been separate from the Omnipresent One?

--aj

aspen · Jan 31, 2012

ajdiamond said:
Hi Angelina,

This is simply not true. Where can you go that you are separate from the Omnipresent Father? Where have you ever been that you've been separate from the Omnipresent One?

--aj

I think Angelina is right. Sin does separate us from God - from our point of view, not God's. Guilt because of sin turns into shame, which separates humans from all relationships - human and God. The separation is not a commentary on God's omnipotence; it is the poisonous human reaction to our own sin.

Lively Stone · Jan 31, 2012

3. If we as Christians accept that Christians can still sin, it may give license for Christians to continue sinning.

All the points made from which this quote originated are right on, except for this one. There is always a danger of Christians falling for teh 'greasy grace' fallacy, but those who have had a real encounter with the saving power of Jesus Christ know that we are always up against certain temptaions / testings / trials surrounding certain sins. We have been givena new nature but the command we are given is to "put on your new nature". Unless we do that, we will be constantly acting out of carnality--saved but carnal and not victorious.

We must be wise and vigilant against the temptation to sin. The more we choose against sin, the easier it will get, adn the more power we will have against the enemy who just loves to try to trip us up. Jesus promises to never leave us or forsake us, and we must learn to run to Him for strength to overcome if---and when---we need that. We cannot overcome sin adn trouble in our own strength. It has been dealt with on the cross, and we must keep it there.

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