Is believing/faith a work ?

Kermos said:

Oh, so you think you can override the Word of God, Jesus Christ, with Paul's writing. That is a very sad state of affairs for you.

First, the King of the Kingdom of God says "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind" (Matthew 22:37), so thoughts are a work because Jesus shows this when He mentions "mind" (Matthew 22:37),

Faith/Belief is a work, but faith/belief is none of a work of man, but faith/belief in us Christians is an act of God because "this is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (the Word of God Jesus Christ, John 6:29) which is the Word of God proclaiming that God causes faith/belief inside of us Christians.

Look carefully, CadyandZoe, and see that Jesus does not attribute faith/belief to man's control, so there is zero potential for we Christian's faith/belief to be "works of the law".

In Truth (John 14:6), Paul is in accord with Jesus the Lord; however, you are not.

Click to expand...

Your charge against me is unfounded and a bit hysterical. What are we saying? That Paul is greater than Jesus? Not at all. Paul is an apostle of Jesus Christ, and as such, he is endowed with the Holy Spirit, who teaches and gives Paul Jesus' understanding of the kingdom of God. Paul would never contradict Jesus.

This thread is not about Biblical truth as such; the thread is centered on a vocabulary word - "to believe" - and it's meaning within the context of the Biblical text. Does the Bible ever use the term "belief" to connote action? I don't think so. Anyone who wishes to prove that the New Testament uses the verb "to believe" as a synonym for the verb "to work" must find an example where the Biblical text employs the term "belief" to connote or denote the idea of work. I quoted a passage wherein the verb "to believe" is used in opposition to the verb "to work" in the context of a discussion about God's justification. In that context, Paul writes that we are justified by faith apart from works. Here, Paul clearly indicates that, in his mind, belief is something different than a work.

Since you cited Matthew 22:37, let's examine that verse. What is the operative verb in that sentence? The action being commanded is "love"; We are commanded to love God. Before we continue, we need to be constantly remind ourselves that Biblical "love" is action, not a feeling. We are not commanded to feel love towards God. We are commanded to act in ways that demonstrate our love of God, not only with our minds, but with our hearts and with our very lives.

Love is action. A "Love-act" is a deed or undertaking, which indicates or expresses devotion toward the beloved. What are the kinds of ways we act in love toward God? We believe what he says; we trust him; we listen to him; we worship him; we mediate on his word; we perform acts of goodness, kindness, and generosity toward our neighbor; we forgive others; we value what God values; we value the truth and practice the truth. We seek and practice righteousness. In all these ways we love God with our hearts, souls and minds.

In other words, Matthew 22:37 is not equating belief with work; rather Jesus is focused on the means whereby we act in love toward God. To love God with our minds is to believe what God says, study his word, adopt his attitudes toward others. Using our mind is what we do, but thinking is not a work. A work is an action we take once we have made up our mind or reasoned out the course of action to take. We use our minds to meditate on his word in order to learn what God values so that we might act in concord with his sentiments and his judgment.

Kermos said:

"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me" (Psalm 51:5).

"The wicked are estranged from the womb; these who speak lies go astray from birth" (Psalm 58:3).

You lied. The following scripture was proclaimed to you in the post to which you replied, but in your self-will, you neglected or ignored the scripture.

Let's just ponder your two posts, even your prior post's last paragraph's first sentence, in contrast to the prophet Jeremiah's words of "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9).

Even your thoughts contrasted against the Lord Jesus Christ's words "No one is good except God alone " (Mark 10:18), so the only state of being for people is evil - and He includes being born evil because He gives no exception.

Further exemplifing your heart's written antimony toward the Word of God is your ignorance of where He says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3); therefore, you cannot properly perceive King Jesus of the Kingdom of God unless God causes you to be born again. See here that a person not born again fails to perceive King Jesus in Righteousness, so the default condition of men is the state of evil - in other words - depraved (see Romans chapter 1).

Click to expand...

Not a single verse you cite says man is born a sinner. David did not say he was born a sinner, Jeremiah did not say men are born wicked...you assumed that into the verse. Paul says in Rom 3:12
"They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."
Paul did NOT sat men are BORN out of the way, he did not say men are BORN unprovitable. But all are born innocent and then later go out of the way, become unprfitable. Going out of the way, becoming unprofitable shows perosnal culpability of one's OWN sinful actions and not passively inheriting and being accountable for another person's sinful actions.

Paul says in Rom 4:15 "for where no law is, there is no transgression".

John says sin is transgression of the law, 1 Jn 3:4

Romans 7:8-9 shows infants are not even accountable to God's law for they are "without the law".

According to the BIble, for one to be a sinner there must be a law and that law must be transgressed by an accountable person. Therefore how the BIble defines sins makes the man made idea of original sin impossible.

Furthermore you cite the new birth of Jn 3 where Jesus says one must be born AGAIN. The word AGAIN implies one must be born before (physical birth) in order for one to be born AGAIN (spiritual birth). When one is physically born into this world he is born without sin. Yet when one is born AGAIN spiritually his sins are taken away by God (Col 2:11-13) and he once AGAIN becomes without sin as he was when he was physically born. If men were born sinners, the the new birth would have one AGAIN returning back to that sinful state in which he was physically born. Yet the new birth has one returning AGAIN back to that sinless state in which one was physically born.

physically born > no sin
born again > no sin

Kermos said:

@Ernest T. Bass

(1) you ignore Philippians 2:12 relation to Philippians 2:13 where God works the will of believers to obey, (2) you think "good" fruit by you is caused by you, yet we Christians know our good fruit is caused by God because it is fruit of the Spirit, (3) you confuse what scripture states such as in Hebrews 3:12, and (4) you didn't know why the Old Testament was written. (post in this thread), and there is some about perseverance of the saints by God in the post, too.

the contradiction illuminated between "this is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (the Word of God Jesus Christ, John 6:29) contrasted against "this is you working the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (the word of Ernest T. Bass) post in this thread exhibits your traditions of men fail (Matthew 15:9).

this post preludes the examination of your post in 5 segments:

• SEGMENT 1: your heart adulterates Jesus' words of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) into the words of Ernest T. Bass "you of the office of an Apostle did not choose Me, but I chose you for the office of an Apostle only".
• SEGMENT 2: Commands show who is of who or what, and people in Old Testament times were unable to keep the commandments for the Apostle Peter declared "Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?" (Acts 15:10).
• SEGMENT 3: God works believers repentance.
• SEGMENT 4: the first state of being for people is opposition against God.
• SEGMENT 5: you wickedly call God "insane", "cruel", "sadistic", and "evil" - EVEN "EVIL" - yet God loves the children of God soooooo much that God exclusively saves us incapable wretches from the wrath of God.

you are shown that "free-will" is scripturally a misnomer for autonomous will which is properly identified as "self-will" in scripture, and the Spiritual implications are explicit (post in this thread).

Click to expand...

Phil 2:12-13
"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

The context says those Philippians were obedient. God is working in those who obey Him as seen by their obedience to Him and not in those who disobey Him. And Paul clearly tells them to WORK out your own salvation just exactly as Christ said to work for the spiritual food that endures unto everlasting life. Paul and Christ are in 100# agreement...no obedient works = no salvation.

Jn 6:28-29
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Kermos:
this is the work of God, that you do nothing while God does all the work for you.

How YOU force your ideas into Jn 6:29 makes all the commands given to man to believe senseless since GOd does the work of beliving for man, makes God a respecter of persons for whom He does this work against those He does not do this work, makes God culpable for the faithless.

Hence it is the ideas of Calvinism that makes God evil, sadistic, unjust, unloving, unholy...Calvinism tries to force a character upon God that God does not possess in giving commands that man cannot possible obey then eternally punishing man for lack of obedience for failing to do the impossible. You claim man has no free will therefore all the evil man does if must be ordained by God therefore making God culpable for all evil that occurs.

AGAIN, Jn 6:27 Jesus made WORK NECESSARY, ESSENTIAL in order for one to be given everlasting life thereby putting nails in the coffin of faith onlyism. How many more nails must be drivin into that faith only coffin before men accept the words of Jesus rather than the words of false teachers?

Kermos said:

The term free-will indicates your will is autonomous from God's will because your will is free (detached, disassociated, separate, unencumbered, disentangled, not dependent, not obligated, not indebted) with regard to God.

Essentially, you are saying your will is autonomous from God; in other words, God does not control your will.

You say you control your will all by yourself. Now, see the word "self" in "yourself".

Free-will is a misnomer of sorts since the only reference to free-will is as an illusory thing by the Apostle Paul (Philemon 1:14), so let's use a scriptural term used by the Apostle Peter, which is the term "self-will" (2 Peter 2:9-10). A self-willed person represents an autonomous willed person.

You have a self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10), but your self-will is incapable of choosing Jesus because Lord Jesus says you are incapable of perceiving Jesus properly without being born of God (John 3:3).

No scripture states man has a free-will capable of choosing Jesus unto being saved from the wrath of God.

We find that self-willed persons daringly revile the majesty of King Jesus (2 Peter 2:9-10), after all, the Apostle wrote "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).

Your statement is deception because the Word of God says powerfully:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15 , the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

Christ defines and makes us Christians.

The Apostle Paul wrote that s Christian's will is bound to God Almighty (Philippians 2:13), and this is a wonderful blessing!

Your statement demonstrates your lack of understanding.

See Lord Jesus Christ's sayings "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).

Click to expand...

You CONTINUE to take Jn 15:16 out of context and make erroneous, out of context applications to it as if man can only be saved if God chooses him when the context is about Christ choosing men to the office of an Apostles not about randomly, unconditionally chooisng men to salvation. Your out of context claims makes God a respecter of person and culpable for the lost when He is neither.

There is a command in the BIble to build an ark. Are you building an ark? If not why? The CONTEXT is God commanding Noah to build an ark, not every man building an ark. If we listen to you, then we must all be building arks for you would take this verse out of context in Genesis as you do with the one in John 15:16.

====================

If man has no free will that must mean God ordains ALL the things men do which would make verses as Matt 23:37 SENSELESS:
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Jesus WOULD but those Jews WOULD NOT shows that man DOES have a free will and can use that free will to go against what Christ wills for man.

If man has no free will as you claimand since Christ WOULD those Jews be under His protective wing yet you have Christ ordaining those non-free will Jews that they would NOT be under his wing hence you have Christ ordaining things that go AGAINST HIS OWN WILL......Jesus WOULD but ordained those Jews to WOULD NOT......SENSELESS.

If Calvinisms unconditional election of individuals before the world began were true, then that too makes Matt 23:37 SENSELESS.

If those Jews of Mt 23:37 were unconditionally elected by God before the world began to be saved, then why did they reject Christ, why would God ordain them to reject Christ?

On the other hand if those Jews were NOT elected by God before the world began, why would Jesus want them to be under His protective wing already knowing they were unconditionally pre-condemned before the world began??

What about the rich man in Mark 10:17ff?

If he was unconditionally elected by God before the world began to have eternal life, why did he walk away reecting eternal life offered him and remained lost?
If he was NOT elected by God before the world began to have eternal life why did Jesus taunt him with giving him eternal life already knowing he could not have it??

If Calvinism's total depravity were true then that rich man would have been totally depraved being lost and "unregenerate". Yet while unregenrate and totally depraved he still observed God's law from his youth up and was seeking eternal life neither which would be possible of an 'unregenerate", totally depraved person. And if he was not chosen by God before the world began then why did Jesus LOVE HIM and not HATE him as God supposedly hates the 'unelected' as Esau as Calvinism claims?


If salvation were by faith alone why did Jesus give the man a WORK to do in order to receive eternal life, Mk 10:21....One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
We know he observed God's law from his youth up but there was something still LACKING, there was more WORK he needed to do in addition to what he was already doing in obeying God's law and that was to sell his goods, give to the poor and take up the cross and follow Christ. Why didn't Christ say God would do this work for you while you do nothing.....if God does all the work while man sits idle?

Kermos said:

Your illegal grammar wrongly divides the Word of God such as your bullet point above "--the required WORK in order to" where your heart's treasure (Matthew 15:16-19) wickedly separates "the work of God" from "believe" recorded in John 6:29!

The following carefully examines the Lord's words with legal grammar in Truth (John 14:6).

REGARDLESS OF THE SURROUNDING CONVERSATION IN JOHN CHAPTER 6, THE WORD OF GOD DEFINES THAT I BELIEVE IN HIM WHOM THE FATHER HAS SENT (JOHN 6:29) AS BEING THE WORK OF GOD; THEREFORE, GOD CONTROLS BELIEF/FAITH IN ME, AND THIS BLESSING DECLARED BY JESUS APPLIES TO EVERY BELIEVER IN ALL TIME!

After the people asked "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" (John 6:28) of Jesus, then the Lord dispels the notion that man manipulates faith/belief with His response of "this is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29). Notice Jesus' removal of the work of men, so man does not manipulate faith/belief according to Jesus (John 6:29).

When you preach things like "The people asked what work is it that WE DO and not what work will God do for us. Jesus gave them a work to do: believe", then your heart (Matthew 15:16-19) adulterates the Word of God into "this is you working the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (the word of Ernest T. Bass).

In effect, you think "this is you controlling the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (the word of Ernest T. Bass).

To further paraphrase while maintaining your context, you promote "this is you controlling God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (the thoughts of Ernest T. Bass' heart).

Your heart's treasure of "you controlling God" exalts yourself like the Most High. It is written "you said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’" (Isaiah 14:13-14), and the passage is followed by the result of being thrust into the pit (Isaiah 14:15).

In Truth (John 14:6), Lord Jesus says God controls man for the Lord's proclamation of "this is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29) uses intentional grammatical structure resulting in "you believe in Him whom He has sent" being the sentence subject, and "is the work of God" is the predicate, and the word "is" is the verb in "is the work of God", and the direct object of the sentence is "the work of God", so the spiritual food that the Son of Man gives (John 6:27) is that God controls the "you believing in Him whom He has sent" subject of the sentence (John 6:29).

Every single one of us Christians believing in Jesus whom the Father has sent is fully the work of God (John 6:29), both the "you" and the "believing" in John 6:29 are caused/created/controlled by God, by God's grace for God's glory.

I proclaim to you that the Word of God says "this is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

NO SCRIPTURE STATES MAN HAS A FREE-WILL TO CHOOSE JESUS UNTO SALVATION, SO SELF-WILLED PERSONS REVILE KING JESUS (2 PETER 2:9-10) BY THEIR THOUGHTS THAT THEY CHOOSE JESUS DESPITE LORD JESUS SAYING "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU" (JOHN 15:16) AND "COLOR=RED]I CHOSE YOU OUT OF THE WORLD[/COLOR]" (JOHN 15:19, INCLUDES SALVATION) AND "WHAT I SAY TO YOU I SAY TO ALL" (MARK 13:37).

See Lord Jesus Christ's sayings "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).

Click to expand...

You fail to address:
--why would Jesus tell those people "YOU believe" if God is to do the work of believing for them?
--Whose culpability is it if they did not believe?
--Why would God command men to believe, as the jailer in Acts 16, if God does that work for men?
--how can the Bible call God 'just' and 'righteous' in condemning men for not believing when God alone controls if a man believes or not?
--How can God not be culpable for the faithless when God alone is totally in control of who has faith and who does not?
--How can God not be a respecter of persons when He unconditionally, arbitrarily does the work of believing for one person but not another?
--What sense does Exodus 4 make in God giving miraculous signs to induce a belief in the Israelites when God alone controls if they have belief or not? John 20:30-31 it makes no sense for John to write down some of the miracles of Christ performed to induce a belief in people if people have no control as to whether he believes or not. All miracles performed in the Bible were useless, worthless for they could do nothing to induce a belief in man. Mk 16:20 miracles were performed to 'confirm the word' of God but how could this confirmation take place if men could not believe in those miracles or believe the word of God if man does not have the ability to believe.

Again, 1 Cor 16:10
Now if Timotheus come, see that he may be with you without fear: for he worketh the work of the Lord, as I also do.

The phrase "work of the Lord" does NOT refer to work the Lord does for men but refers to the work the Lord has given to men to do as Timothy and Paul were both doing the work of the Lord. Obviously the phrases "work of God" and "work of the Lord" mean that God is the source of the work that is given to men to do. Hence those who who believe have chosen to do the work of God exactly as Timothy and Paul both did the work of the Lord in carrying out the work the Lord gave them to do. The Lord sent Paul on missionary journeys....did Paul did that 'work of the Lord" in going and preaching per the great commission or did the Lord do that missionary work, carry out the great commission while Paul sat idle?


And you CONTINUE to take Jn 16:16 ot of context.

brightfame52 said:

No, Try reading the OP again and talk about it. Thats really what the thread is about. Thanks

Click to expand...

No. We aren't talking about the OP. We are talking about your response to my post, which I asked you to explain. You accused me of promoting salvation by works. I am not doing that, but I wanted to know what reasoning led you to believe I was. If you hear me promoting salvation by works then you are misunderstanding what I am saying.

CadyandZoe said:

Your charge against me is unfounded and a bit hysterical. What are we saying? That Paul is greater than Jesus? Not at all. Paul is an apostle of Jesus Christ, and as such, he is endowed with the Holy Spirit, who teaches and gives Paul Jesus' understanding of the kingdom of God. Paul would never contradict Jesus.

This thread is not about Biblical truth as such; the thread is centered on a vocabulary word - "to believe" - and it's meaning within the context of the Biblical text. Does the Bible ever use the term "belief" to connote action? I don't think so. Anyone who wishes to prove that the New Testament uses the verb "to believe" as a synonym for the verb "to work" must find an example where the Biblical text employs the term "belief" to connote or denote the idea of work. I quoted a passage wherein the verb "to believe" is used in opposition to the verb "to work" in the context of a discussion about God's justification. In that context, Paul writes that we are justified by faith apart from works. Here, Paul clearly indicates that, in his mind, belief is something different than a work.

Since you cited Matthew 22:37, let's examine that verse. What is the operative verb in that sentence? The action being commanded is "love"; We are commanded to love God. Before we continue, we need to be constantly remind ourselves that Biblical "love" is action, not a feeling. We are not commanded to feel love towards God. We are commanded to act in ways that demonstrate our love of God, not only with our minds, but with our hearts and with our very lives.

Love is action. A "Love-act" is a deed or undertaking, which indicates or expresses devotion toward the beloved. What are the kinds of ways we act in love toward God? We believe what he says; we trust him; we listen to him; we worship him; we mediate on his word; we perform acts of goodness, kindness, and generosity toward our neighbor; we forgive others; we value what God values; we value the truth and practice the truth. We seek and practice righteousness. In all these ways we love God with our hearts, souls and minds.

In other words, Matthew 22:37 is not equating belief with work; rather Jesus is focused on the means whereby we act in love toward God. To love God with our minds is to believe what God says, study his word, adopt his attitudes toward others. Using our mind is what we do, but thinking is not a work. A work is an action we take once we have made up our mind or reasoned out the course of action to take. We use our minds to meditate on his word in order to learn what God values so that we might act in concord with his sentiments and his judgment.

Click to expand...

Let's look at your closing paragraphs about Matthew 22:37 but before we do let's review these words of Lord Jesus;:

You wrote "Love is action", and you accurately referred to love as a "deed". A deed is a work.

Jesus clearly proclaims "You shall love the Lord" "with all your mind" (Matthew 22:37); therefore, love is a deed/work of the mind - also known as thought, so thought is a work of the mind according to Jesus.

A person does not work belief/faith in Jesus Christ within said person because the word of God says that belief/faith in Jesus Christ is the work of God with "this is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (the Word of God Jesus Christ, John 6:29).

Let me make this clear, you try to pit the Apostle Paul against the Word of God Jesus Christ in that your heart's thoughts override the words of Jesus defining "to believe" as a exclusively the work of God (John 6:29) then you turn around and try to use Paul conveying "not by works of the law" to eliminate the words of Jesus.

In Truth (John 14:6), Paul is in accord with Jesus the Lord; however, you are not.

Love is an action. It’s a work.

Of course only heavenly and godly love can only be achieved by and through Christ Jesus as a believer in Him.

Abraham wouldn’t have been so willingly to sacrifice his son if he didn’t love God above all else.

people of humanist view don’t like that.

But the Jewish people were quite different than any other race.

As aweful and horrible as it may sound.

Just think about it.

MatthewG said:

Love is an action. It’s a work.

Of course only heavenly and godly love can only be achieved by and through Christ Jesus as a believer in Him.

Abraham wouldn’t have been so willingly to sacrifice his son if he didn’t love God above all else.

people of humanist view don’t like that.

But the Jewish people were quite different than any other race.

As aweful and horrible as it may sound.

Just think about it.

Click to expand...

Now this is the true faith that all lambs should have , whether jew or gentile .
If a man loves His father , mother , daughter , son , wife or etc MORE than me HE is not worthy of me .
Abraham truly did PUT GOD first . And i know most folks try and make this seem evil .
BUT instead of just focusing on the fact GOD had asked abraham TO DO THIS
Lets also ask ourselves antother question . IN THE END DID GOD MAKE ABRAHAM DO THIS . NOPE .
IT was all to test the faith of abraham and to SHOW abraham the promise GOD WOULD DO HIMSELF .
FOR GOD DID PROVIDE A LAMB , so that all who do believe in HIM shall be saved .
AND if we read in hebrews , we see That Abraham actually BELIEVED GOD would RAISE issac back up .
Acounting that GOD would raise him from the dead .
But why Did abraham actually believe GOD would raise him back up , CAUSE GOD DONT LIE
in ISSAC was the seed , in Issac was the promise . Abraham KNEW and truly BELIEVED IN GOD .
And in truth , many years later the SEED would come . JESUS DID . AND NOW all who DO BELIEVE shall be saved .

Let all that draws breath praise and thank the glorious LORD .

Ernest T. Bass said:

You fail to address:
--why would Jesus tell those people "YOU believe" if God is to do the work of believing for them?
--Whose culpability is it if they did not believe?
--Why would God command men to believe, as the jailer in Acts 16, if God does that work for men?
--how can the Bible call God 'just' and 'righteous' in condemning men for not believing when God alone controls if a man believes or not?
--How can God not be culpable for the faithless when God alone is totally in control of who has faith and who does not?
--How can God not be a respecter of persons when He unconditionally, arbitrarily does the work of believing for one person but not another?
--What sense does Exodus 4 make in God giving miraculous signs to induce a belief in the Israelites when God alone controls if they have belief or not? John 20:30-31 it makes no sense for John to write down some of the miracles of Christ performed to induce a belief in people if people have no control as to whether he believes or not. All miracles performed in the Bible were useless, worthless for they could do nothing to induce a belief in man. Mk 16:20 miracles were performed to 'confirm the word' of God but how could this confirmation take place if men could not believe in those miracles or believe the word of God if man does not have the ability to believe.

Again, 1 Cor 16:10
Now if Timotheus come, see that he may be with you without fear: for he worketh the work of the Lord, as I also do.

The phrase "work of the Lord" does NOT refer to work the Lord does for men but refers to the work the Lord has given to men to do as Timothy and Paul were both doing the work of the Lord. Obviously the phrases "work of God" and "work of the Lord" mean that God is the source of the work that is given to men to do. Hence those who who believe have chosen to do the work of God exactly as Timothy and Paul both did the work of the Lord in carrying out the work the Lord gave them to do. The Lord sent Paul on missionary journeys....did Paul did that 'work of the Lord" in going and preaching per the great commission or did the Lord do that missionary work, carry out the great commission while Paul sat idle?


And you CONTINUE to take Jn 16:16 ot of context.

Click to expand...

One again a very excellent explanation of what scripture means. It seems to me that some have a very limited Bible because they cannot get out of the few verses they simply repeat for every challenge they have and almost always out of context. In this case Paul even uses the phrase, "works of faith". Our Christian life is all about faith in action. It is not God doing the action, but man. God desires that man obey, but God cannot force man's will. That was part of His Image that He placed in man to be responsible moral agent, for which all men will give an account. Our entire lives on this earth is a test of whether a person chooses life or death.

Kermos said:

Let's look at your closing paragraphs about Matthew 22:37 but before we do let's review these words of Lord Jesus;:

​

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind (Matthew 22:37)​

​

You wrote "Love is action", and you accurately referred to love as a "deed". A deed is a work.

Jesus clearly proclaims "You shall love the Lord" "with all your mind" (Matthew 22:37); therefore, love is a deed/work of the mind - also known as thought, so thought is a work of the mind according to Jesus.

A person does not work belief/faith in Jesus Christ within said person because the word of God says that belief/faith in Jesus Christ is the work of God with "this is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (the Word of God Jesus Christ, John 6:29).

Let me make this clear, you try to pit the Apostle Paul against the Word of God Jesus Christ in that your heart's thoughts override the words of Jesus defining "to believe" as a exclusively the work of God (John 6:29) then you turn around and try to use Paul conveying "not by works of the law" to eliminate the words of Jesus.

In Truth (John 14:6), Paul is in accord with Jesus the Lord; however, you are not.

Click to expand...

I have no idea what you just said.

Ernest T. Bass said:

Context matters as to who is speaking, who is being spoken to and what is being said.

In the context of Jn 15:16 Jesus is speaking to His Apostles about choosing them to be Apostles. He promises those Apostles the Comforter (v26) "he shall teach you (Apostles) all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you" (Jn 14:26) meaning the APostles were inspired by the Holy Spirit in what they spake and wrote which no one today has this inspiration. Your argument fails on Jn 15:16 for you keep taking it out of context adding ideas to it that are not there. God is not a respecter of persons (Acts 10:34-35) in unconditionally chooisng some to be saved leaving others to be lost.

Click to expand...

Let's run through your post from the end toward the beginning, but here's some of our conversation background first.

Lord Jesus says "you" to all believers in all time during the supper recorded in John chapters 14 - 17, and this Truth (John 14:6) is absolute with "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation) and "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this).

Your thoughts that Jesus exclusively uses "you" as a reference to "the office of an apostle" during the supper shows your failure of spiritual understanding.

Near the end of your post you brought up Acts 10:34-35, so let's look at Peter's words:

You break the context here just like you adulterate John 15:16 into that which it is not - your "you of the office of an Apostle did not choose Me, but I chose you for the office of an Apostle only" (word of Ernest T. Bass).

Peter's context is God does not show partiality to the Jews by omitting the Gentiles. Your context is that God distinguishes no difference between one person and another person - instead of nations. It is written "though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, 'The older will serve the younger.' Just as it is written, 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated'" (Romans 9:11-13).

Now, let's go back to where you brought up John 14:26. This is one of several passages during the supper recorded in John chapters 14 - 17 where Jesus promises the Holy Spirit while using "you" - not your adulterated "he shall teach you (Apostles) all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you " (see your heart's addition of "Apostles"). Here is the unadulterated Word of God:

LORD JESUS' PROMISE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AND FULFILLING​

In John chapter 14, John chapter 15, and John chapter 16 Jesus explicitly promises the Holy Spirit. For example, He said "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you" (John 14:16-17).

When the Holy Spirit came upon the disciples of Jesus at Pentecost, there were about 120 persons present according to the next two sets of passages:

One hundred twenty people is more than eleven Apostles; therefore, the Lord Jesus was talking to all His disciples of all time when Jesus said "you" with reference to the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17) and He said "you" with reference to God's exclusive ability to choose men and men's inability to choose God (John 15:16) as recorded by the Apostle John.

CRUCIAL POINT: The Holy Spirit, The Apostle Peter, The Gentiles Cornelius And All His Household, And Lord Jesus Saying "You"​

Cornelius is of crucial import to this topic for among the places that we find fulfillment of the Word of God's promise of the Holy Spirit is when Gentiles at Cornelius' place were filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:44).

At a time after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Peter recounted to the apostles and brethren about the Gentiles Cornelius with his relatives and his close friends, and the account Peter shared of the Gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit with being saved illuminated that not just Jews would be saved but also Gentiles would be saved (Acts 11:1-18).

At that time, Peter said to the apostles and brethren "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, '"John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit' " (Acts 11:16).

Prior to the time of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Lord Jesus said ""John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 1:5) to the apostles whom Jesus gathered togather (Acts 1:4) which included Peter, and Jesus says "you" right here - with the apostles present right there, Jesus says "you".

Later after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Peter remembered Lord Jesus saying "you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit" and there is the word "you" (Acts 11:16) which Peter tied to the Gentiles Cornelius with all his household (Acts 11:14); furthermore, Peter tied when Lord Jesus says "you" to all believers in all time (Acts 11:17)!

Thus, the fulfillment of the Word of God's promise of the Holy Spirit is more than the Apostles in John chapters 14-16, and includes not just the Jews but also the Gentiles because of Cornelius, and our Lord Jesus saying "you" to the disciples includes all disciples in all time.

THE SUPPER IN JOHN CHAPTERS 13 TO 17​

Both the promise of the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17, John 14:26, John 15:26-27, John 16:7-14) as well as God's exclusive role in choosing man (John 15:16, John 15:19) occur in the self-same supper recorded in John chapters 13 - 17, so the "you" in John 15:16 is all believers in all time.

Peter [said] to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself." (Acts 2:38-39).

See that "the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off (Acts 2:39), so Peter is in accord with Jesus using "you" to include all believers in all time with:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15 , the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

CadyandZoe said:

I have no idea what you just said.

Click to expand...

The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he is not able to understand them, because spiritually they are discerned (1 Corinthians 2:14).

brightfame52 said:

You do promote salvation by works. Thats my opinion of what you have posted.

Click to expand...

Again, how so? I am denying that faith is a work. You are the one promoting salvation by works since you believe that faith is a work. Yes? No?

Kermos said:

The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he is not able to understand them, because spiritually they are discerned (1 Corinthians 2:14).

Click to expand...

So what? What is the point?

Ernest T. Bass said:

Not a single verse you cite says man is born a sinner. David did not say he was born a sinner, Jeremiah did not say men are born wicked...you assumed that into the verse. Paul says in Rom 3:12
"They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."
Paul did NOT sat men are BORN out of the way, he did not say men are BORN unprovitable. But all are born innocent and then later go out of the way, become unprfitable. Going out of the way, becoming unprofitable shows perosnal culpability of one's OWN sinful actions and not passively inheriting and being accountable for another person's sinful actions.

Paul says in Rom 4:15 "for where no law is, there is no transgression".

John says sin is transgression of the law, 1 Jn 3:4

Romans 7:8-9 shows infants are not even accountable to God's law for they are "without the law".

Click to expand...

Paul says a lot in Romans.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.