Is believing/faith a work ?

Johann said:

A rethink is in order....
except a man be born of water and of the Spirit: these are, מלות שנות, "two words", which express the same thing, as Kimchi observes in many places in his commentaries, and signify the grace of the Spirit of God.


The Vulgate Latin and Ethiopic versions read, "the Holy Spirit", and so Nonnus; and who doubtless is intended:

by "water", is not meant material water, or baptismal water; for water baptism is never expressed by water only, without some additional word, which shows, that the ordinance of water baptism is intended: nor has baptism any regenerating influence in it; a person may be baptized, as Simon Magus was, and yet not born again; and it is so far from having any such virtue, that a person ought to be born again, before he is admitted to that ordinance:


and though submission to it is necessary, in order to a person's entrance into a Gospel church state; yet it is not necessary to the kingdom of heaven, or to eternal life and salvation: such a mistaken sense of this text, seems to have given the first birth and rise to infant baptism in the African churches; who taking the words in this bad sense, concluded their children must be baptized, or they could not be saved;

whereas by "water" is meant, in a figurative and metaphorical sense, the grace of God, as it is elsewhere; see Eze_36:25. Which is the moving cause of this new birth, and according to which God begets men again to, a lively hope, and that by which it is effected; for it is by the grace of God, and not by the power of man's free will, that any are regenerated, or made new creatures: and if Nicodemus was an officer in the temple, that took care to provide water at the feasts, as Dr. Lightfoot thinks, and as it should seem Nicodemon ben Gorion was, by the story before related of him;

See Gill on Joh_3:1; very pertinently does our Lord make mention of water, it being his own element: regeneration is sometimes ascribed to God the Father, as in 1Pe_1:3, and sometimes to the Son, 1Jn_2:29 and here to the Spirit, as in Tit_3:5, who convinces of sin, sanctifies, renews, works faith, and every other grace; begins and carries on the work of grace, unto perfection;
=================================

he cannot enter into the kingdom of God; and unless a man has this work of his wrought on his soul, as he will never understand divine and spiritual things, so he can have no right to Gospel ordinances, or things appertaining to the kingdom of God; nor can he be thought to have passed from death to life, and to have entered into an open state of grace, and the kingdom of it; or that living and dying so, he shall ever enter into the kingdom of heaven; for unless a man is regenerated, he is not born heir apparent to it; and without internal holiness, shall not enter into it, enjoy it, or see God.
Gill
Chrysostom, with whom the greater part of expounders agree, makes the word Water refer to baptism. The meaning would then be, that by baptism we enter into the kingdom of God, because in baptism we are regenerated by the Spirit of God. Hence arose the belief of the absolute necessity of baptism, in order to the hope of eternal life. But though we were to admit that Christ here speaks of baptism, yet we ought not to press his words so closely as to imagine that he confines salvation to the outward sign; but, on the contrary, he connects the Water with the Spirit, because under that visible symbol he attests and seals that newness of life which God alone produces in us by his Spirit.

[ It is true that, by neglecting baptism, we are excluded from salvation; and in this sense I acknowledge that it is necessary;]
=====^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I put this in brackets, since Calvin seems to contradict himself......


>>>but it is absurd to speak of the hope of salvation as confined to the sign. So far as relates to this passage, I cannot bring myself to believe that Christ speaks of baptism; for it would have been inappropriate.

We must always keep in remembrance the design of Christ, which we have already explained; namely, that he intended to exhort Nicodemus to newness of life, because he was not capable of receiving the Gospel, until he began to be a new man. It is, therefore, a simple statement, that we must be born again, in order that we may be the children of God, and that the Holy Spirit is the Author of this second birth.

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Johann said:

This is hardcore Reformed doctrines @Kermos so don't be too harsh on those that are disagreeing with you.

No one here wants to ADULTERATE the scriptures on purpose.
Of Free Will
1.God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that it is neither forced, nor by any absolute
necessity of nature determined to good or evil.

Matt. 17:12. James 1:14. Deut. 30:19.

2.Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which was good, and
well pleasing to God;
but yet mutably, so that he might fall from it.

Eccles. 7:29. Gen. 1:26.
Gen. 2:16–17. Gen. 3:6.

3.Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good
accompanying salvation:
so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good,
and dead in
sin,
is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.



Rom. 5:6. Rom. 8:7. John 15:5.
Rom. 3:10,12.
Eph. 2:1,5. Col. 2:13.

John 6:44,65. Eph. 2:2–5. 1 Cor. 2:14. Titus 3:3–5.


4.When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He freeth him from his natural
bondage under sin;
and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is
spiritually good;
yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly, nor only,
will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil.


h Col. 1:13. John 8:34,36.
Phil. 2:13. Rom. 6:18,22.
Gal. 5:17. Rom. 7:15,18–19, 21, 23.

5.The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone, in the state of glory only.

l Eph. 4:13. Heb. 12:23. 1 John 3:2. Jude 24.

Am I unable to make choices, for good, and for evil, as a born again Christian?

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

For it is God which worketh. The great hope and encouragement to the believer is that he is not left
to himself, but is energized to obey by God. to will and to do. God works in His children the willing and
the doing of His good pleasure. It is the responsibility of the believer to obey God. And God graciously
works in and empowers the believer to obey Him. While we are active in sanctification, it is God’s
work.

For it is God which worketh in you,.... Which is both an encouragement to persons conscious of their own weakness to work, as before exhorted to; see Hag_2:4; and a reason and argument for humility and meekness, and against pride and vain glory, since all we have, and do, is from God; and also points out the spring, principle, and foundation of all good works; namely, the grace of God wrought in the heart, which is an internal work, and purely the work of God: by this men become the workmanship of God, created unto good works, Eph_2:10, and are new men, and fitted for the performance of acts of righteousness, and true holiness; and this grace, which God works in them, is wrought in a powerful and efficacious manner, so as not to be frustrated and made void.

The word here used signifies an inward, powerful, and efficacious operation; and the "king's manuscript", mentioned by Grotius and Hammond, adds another word to it, which makes the sense still stronger, reading it thus, "which worketh in you", δυναμει, "by power"; not by moral persuasion, but by his own power, the power of his efficacious grace. The Alexandrian copy reads, δυναμεις, "powers", or "mighty works": God works in his people
both to will and to do of his good pleasure; God works in converted men a will to that which is spiritually good; which is to be understood, not of the formation of the natural faculty of the will; or of the preservation of it, and its natural liberty; or of the general motion of it to natural objects; nor of his influence on it in a providential way; but of the making of it good, and causing a willingness in it to that which is spiritually good.

Men have no will naturally to come to Christ, or to have him to reign over them; they have no desire, nor hungerings and thirstings after his righteousness and salvation; wherever there are any such inclinations and desires, they are wrought in men by God; who works upon the stubborn and inflexible will, and, without any force to it, makes the soul willing to be saved by Christ, and submit to his righteousness, and do his will; he sweetly and powerfully draws it with the cords of love to himself, and to his Son, and so influences it by his grace and spirit, and which he continues, that it freely wills everything spiritually good, and for the glory of God: and he works in them also to "do"; for there is sometimes in believers a will, when there wants a power of doing.

God therefore both implants in them principles of action to work from, as faith and love, and a regard for his glory, and gives them grace and strength to work with, without which they can do nothing, but having these, can do all things: and all this is "of his good pleasure";

the word "his" not being in the original text, some have taken the liberty to ascribe this to the will of man; and so the Syriac version renders it, "both to will and to do that", דצבין אנתון, "which ye will", or according to your good will; but such a sense is both bad and senseless; for if they have a good will of themselves, what occasion is there for God to work one in them?

no; these internal operations of divine power and grace are not owing to the will of men, nor to any merits of theirs, or are what God is obliged to do, but what flow from his sovereign will and pleasure; who works when, where, and as he pleases, and that for his own glory; and who continues to do so in the hearts of his people; otherwise, notwithstanding the work of grace in them, they would find very little inclination to, and few and faint desires after spiritual things; and less strength to do what is spiritually good; but God of his good pleasure goes on working what is well pleasing in his sight.
Gill.

So, be gracious to Earny who disagrees with you.

No wonder there is such a strong aversion to anything "Calvinistic"

Get that?
J.

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Ernest T. Bass said:

If man has no free will, then why does man do the things he does??? If a man committed mass murder but he has no free will then he did not choose to commit murder but God caused/forced him to commit murder. Therefore God has culpability in murder, man was just the 'weapon' God used to commit murder. Yet such an idea is revolting.

Acts 2:23
"Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:"

If man has no free will and all that comes to pass is a result of "God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass" (WCF, Chp 3, Part 1) then Peter should have blamed God for having wicked hands for those Jews were just the 'weapon' God used to murder an innocent man, Christ Jesus. Peter would be unjust in condemning those Jews for what God ordained and for what was completely out of control of those Jews. Such ideas of Calvinism makes God out to be evil sadistic, unjust, unholy and gives fuel and fodder to atheists.

Truth is God has foreknowledge, as the verse states, and God foreknew that if He sent Christ to earth at that particular time in history those Romans and Jews of their OWN FREE WILL would chose to crucify Christ and in doing so they unknowingly accomplished God's pre-creation plan that Christ die for the sins of the world. Therefore Peter was correct in condemning those Jew's wicked hand for THEIR FREE WILL choice in crucifying Christ and God would be JUST in condmening them for THEIR FREE WILL choice. It's the foolishness of Calvinism making God culpable for the murder of an innocent man then putting the blame upon those innocent Jews that God forced to murder the Christ. Having no free will as you claim, those Jews were nothing but puppets on strings unable to do anything but God's bidding to murder Christ.

I posted the following before from a Calvinist Professor Wayn Grudem: (my emp)
"In Spite of All of the Foregoing Statements, We Have to Come to the Point Where We Confess That We Do Not Understand How It Is That God Can Ordain That We Carry Out Evil Deeds and Yet Hold Us Accountable for Them and Not be Blamed Himself: We can affirm that all of these things are true, because Scripture teaches them. But Scripture does not tell us exactly how God brings this situation about or how it can be that God holds us accountable for what he ordains to come to pass. Here Scripture is silent, and we have to agree with Berkhof that ultimately “the problem of God’s relation to sin remains a mystery" (Systematic Theology, p.331.)

The professor has God ordaining evil things that come to pass but then ponders "But Scripture does not tell us exactly how God brings this situation about or how it can be that God holds us accountable for what he ordains to come to pass." Hence having Peter holding those Jews accountable for what God ordained them to do would be a foolish "mystery" of Calvinism and is not found in the Bible as the so called "Professor" falsely claims. Calvinism created this "mystery" problem for itself for it certainly is not found in the Bible. Scripture certainly is silent when it comes to Calvinism.

The Professor writes "That We Do Not Understand How It Is That God Can Ordain That We Carry Out Evil Deeds and Yet Hold Us Accountable for Them and Not be Blamed Himself" God holding man accountable for what God ordained where man can do nothing but what God ordains makes God evil, sadistic unjust unloving unholy. Calvinism should be totally, thoroughly rejected by all.

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Man Opening The Door To Salvation - The Free-willian Philosophy Explained​

Kermos said:

If I hide the Truth (John 14:6), then I'd just be a clanging bell.

I don't call this Reformed Theology. I call what God has me here doing is proclaiming Christian teachings.

Please stand by while I make some edits

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Kermos said:

If I hide the Truth (John 14:6), then I'd just be a clanging bell. God has me show @Ernest T. Bass specifically where he adulterates the Word of God, and this is crucial for the soul of Ernest T. Bass because Lord Jesus says "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).

I imagine you are aware of the plagues and disasters occurring worldwide. The rumors of war. 177,000 people die daily (according to Ray Comfort). We are in the last days. What will be Ernest T. Bass' last day? I don't know, but I love Ernest T. Bass and I treat him the way I want to be treated - and this means expediently telling the Truth (John 14:6).

I don't call this Reformed Theology, while there is much that I find agreeable in the Reformed community, there are issues - and some are substantial. I call what God has me here doing proclaiming Christian Truth (John 14:6).

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Ernest T. Bass said:

The Bible is its own best commentary:

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Johann said:

I live in South Africa brother, wars on every side, and yes, we are in the last days.

As to Reformed Theology, eat the chicken, spit out the sticks, but I would like to hear about the substantial issues, if you have time.

Shalom
J.

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Johann said:

This is hardcore Reformed doctrines @Kermos so don't be too harsh on those that are disagreeing with you.

No one here wants to ADULTERATE the scriptures on purpose.
Of Free Will
1.God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that it is neither forced, nor by any absolute
necessity of nature determined to good or evil.

Matt. 17:12. James 1:14. Deut. 30:19.

2.Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which was good, and
well pleasing to God;
but yet mutably, so that he might fall from it.

Eccles. 7:29. Gen. 1:26.
Gen. 2:16–17. Gen. 3:6.

3.Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good
accompanying salvation:
so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good,
and dead in
sin,
is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.



Rom. 5:6. Rom. 8:7. John 15:5.
Rom. 3:10,12.
Eph. 2:1,5. Col. 2:13.

John 6:44,65. Eph. 2:2–5. 1 Cor. 2:14. Titus 3:3–5.


4.When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He freeth him from his natural
bondage under sin;
and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is
spiritually good;
yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly, nor only,
will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil.


h Col. 1:13. John 8:34,36.
Phil. 2:13. Rom. 6:18,22.
Gal. 5:17. Rom. 7:15,18–19, 21, 23.

5.The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone, in the state of glory only.

l Eph. 4:13. Heb. 12:23. 1 John 3:2. Jude 24.

Am I unable to make choices, for good, and for evil, as a born again Christian?

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

For it is God which worketh. The great hope and encouragement to the believer is that he is not left
to himself, but is energized to obey by God. to will and to do. God works in His children the willing and
the doing of His good pleasure. It is the responsibility of the believer to obey God. And God graciously
works in and empowers the believer to obey Him. While we are active in sanctification, it is God’s
work.

For it is God which worketh in you,.... Which is both an encouragement to persons conscious of their own weakness to work, as before exhorted to; see Hag_2:4; and a reason and argument for humility and meekness, and against pride and vain glory, since all we have, and do, is from God; and also points out the spring, principle, and foundation of all good works; namely, the grace of God wrought in the heart, which is an internal work, and purely the work of God: by this men become the workmanship of God, created unto good works, Eph_2:10, and are new men, and fitted for the performance of acts of righteousness, and true holiness; and this grace, which God works in them, is wrought in a powerful and efficacious manner, so as not to be frustrated and made void.

The word here used signifies an inward, powerful, and efficacious operation; and the "king's manuscript", mentioned by Grotius and Hammond, adds another word to it, which makes the sense still stronger, reading it thus, "which worketh in you", δυναμει, "by power"; not by moral persuasion, but by his own power, the power of his efficacious grace. The Alexandrian copy reads, δυναμεις, "powers", or "mighty works": God works in his people
both to will and to do of his good pleasure; God works in converted men a will to that which is spiritually good; which is to be understood, not of the formation of the natural faculty of the will; or of the preservation of it, and its natural liberty; or of the general motion of it to natural objects; nor of his influence on it in a providential way; but of the making of it good, and causing a willingness in it to that which is spiritually good.

Men have no will naturally to come to Christ, or to have him to reign over them; they have no desire, nor hungerings and thirstings after his righteousness and salvation; wherever there are any such inclinations and desires, they are wrought in men by God; who works upon the stubborn and inflexible will, and, without any force to it, makes the soul willing to be saved by Christ, and submit to his righteousness, and do his will; he sweetly and powerfully draws it with the cords of love to himself, and to his Son, and so influences it by his grace and spirit, and which he continues, that it freely wills everything spiritually good, and for the glory of God: and he works in them also to "do"; for there is sometimes in believers a will, when there wants a power of doing.

God therefore both implants in them principles of action to work from, as faith and love, and a regard for his glory, and gives them grace and strength to work with, without which they can do nothing, but having these, can do all things: and all this is "of his good pleasure";

the word "his" not being in the original text, some have taken the liberty to ascribe this to the will of man; and so the Syriac version renders it, "both to will and to do that", דצבין אנתון, "which ye will", or according to your good will; but such a sense is both bad and senseless; for if they have a good will of themselves, what occasion is there for God to work one in them?

no; these internal operations of divine power and grace are not owing to the will of men, nor to any merits of theirs, or are what God is obliged to do, but what flow from his sovereign will and pleasure; who works when, where, and as he pleases, and that for his own glory; and who continues to do so in the hearts of his people; otherwise, notwithstanding the work of grace in them, they would find very little inclination to, and few and faint desires after spiritual things; and less strength to do what is spiritually good; but God of his good pleasure goes on working what is well pleasing in his sight.
Gill.

So, be gracious to Earny who disagrees with you.

No wonder there is such a strong aversion to anything "Calvinistic"

Get that?
J.

Click to expand...

1. but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands. (Matthew 17:12)
2. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. (James 1:14)
3. I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, (Deuteronomy 30:19)

1. Matthew 17:12 - man is evil, and in his evil man atrocitied John the Baptist by separating his head from his body even then, later, man evilly crucified the Christ. There is nothing herein about man inclined to good.
2. James 1:14 - James describes free-willians adulterating the Word of God; furthermore, in the same passage James wrote "Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights" (James 1:17), so good is from God thus James is in accord with Lord Jesus saying "No one is good except God alone" (Mark 10:18), and none of the good is of man because James wrote "every good" not just "good" thus leaving just "evil" for man. There is nothing herein about man inclined to good.
3. Deuteronomy 30:19 - Moses said "witness against you" thus he expresses that if the people think they choose life in the Promised Land, then heaven witnesses the evil deed of failure (the need for Messiah and Savior is evident); furthermore, the verse is absent of "you have the ability to choose, so choose life", so evil men may think they choose life, but they really don't - men choose death. There is nothing herein about man inclined to good.

Kermos said:

Regarding your point 1, let's look at the scripture that you cite which appears to come from a catechism:

1. but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands. (Matthew 17:12)
2. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. (James 1:14)
3. I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, (Deuteronomy 30:19)

Not one of those citations states that man was created with the ability to do good nor the ability to manipulate his free-will to choose God.

Let's now examine each verse in turn:

1. Matthew 17:12 - man is evil, and in his evil man atrocitied John the Baptist by separating his head from his body even then, later, man evilly crucified the Christ. There is nothing herein about man inclined to good.
2. James 1:14 - James describes free-willians adulterating the Word of God; furthermore, in the same passage James wrote "Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights" (James 1:17), so good is from God thus James is in accord with Lord Jesus saying "No one is good except God alone" (Mark 10:18), and none of the good is of man because James wrote "every good" not just "good" thus leaving just "evil" for man. There is nothing herein about man inclined to good.
3. Deuteronomy 30:19 - Moses said "witness against you" thus he expresses that if the people think they choose life in the Promised Land, then heaven witnesses the evil deed of failure (the need for Messiah and Savior is evident); furthermore, the verse is absent of "you have the ability to choose, so choose life", so evil men may think they choose life, but they really don't - men choose death. There is nothing herein about man inclined to good.

If you would like to continue discussing this - particularly your point 2 and point 3 in more depth, then please continue in the more topically appropriate thread Was Adam Imparted Free Will From The Beginning Of Creation? on this site. I cross posted this to post 1,407
as a point of departure in that thread. I do not plan to engage with you further on this matter in this current thread.

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Kermos said:

Regarding your point 1, let's look at the scripture that you cite which appears to come from a catechism:

1. but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands. (Matthew 17:12)
2. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. (James 1:14)
3. I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, (Deuteronomy 30:19)

Not one of those citations states that man was created with the ability to do good nor the ability to manipulate his free-will to choose God.

Let's now examine each verse in turn:

1. Matthew 17:12 - man is evil, and in his evil man atrocitied John the Baptist by separating his head from his body even then, later, man evilly crucified the Christ. There is nothing herein about man inclined to good.
2. James 1:14 - James describes free-willians adulterating the Word of God; furthermore, in the same passage James wrote "Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights" (James 1:17), so good is from God thus James is in accord with Lord Jesus saying "No one is good except God alone" (Mark 10:18), and none of the good is of man because James wrote "every good" not just "good" thus leaving just "evil" for man. There is nothing herein about man inclined to good.
3. Deuteronomy 30:19 - Moses said "witness against you" thus he expresses that if the people think they choose life in the Promised Land, then heaven witnesses the evil deed of failure (the need for Messiah and Savior is evident); furthermore, the verse is absent of "you have the ability to choose, so choose life", so evil men may think they choose life, but they really don't - men choose death. There is nothing herein about man inclined to good.

If you would like to continue discussing this - particularly your point 2 and point 3 in more depth, then please continue in the more topically appropriate thread Was Adam Imparted Free Will From The Beginning Of Creation? on this site. I cross posted this to post 1,407
as a point of departure in that thread. I do not plan to engage with you further on this matter in this current thread.

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Johann said:

Sounds like Hyper-Calvinism, Fatalism.

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
θελειν
G2309
V-PAN
θέλω
to determine
ενεργειν
G1754
V-PAN
ἐνεργέω
to be active
Both to will and to work (kai to thelein kai to energein). “Both the willing and the working (the energizing).” God does it all, then.

Yes, but he puts us to work also and our part is essential, as he has shown in Php_2:12, though secondary to that of God.

For his good-pleasure (huper tēs eudokias). So Whitney puts “the will of God” behind gravitation and all the laws of nature.

Lit., the willing and the doing. Both are from God, and are of one piece, so that he who wills inevitably does. The willing which is wrought by God, by its own nature and pressure, works out into action.

“We will, but God works the will in us. We work, therefore, but God works the working in us” (Augustine). For to do, Rev. substitutes to work, thus preserving the harmony in the Greek between “God which worketh” and “to work.”

No such thing as a believer "incapable" of obeying good, or evil.

I also don't wish to engage with you further on this matter on this current thread.

J.

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Ernest T. Bass said:

Hi,


It's true that one cannot have faith in God without works and be saved, that means salvation is not by faith only but by faith AND obedient works. Faith is dead if it is void of obedient works in doing God's will, James 2.


Faith is a work, it's an obedient work (Jn 6:27; Mark 2:1-5; John 3:36; 1 Thess 1:3; Gal 5:6)

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brightfame52 said:

Yes it is, you will see at the judgment, Im afraid it will be too late then, may God be pleased to deliver you from work salvation, for it contradicts the clear teaching of Grace.

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brightfame52 said:

My Testimony is that Salvation is by Grace apart from the works of men. But as soon as you condition Salvation on anything you do, believe, repent, obey , you then condition salvation on man and what he does, that's apostacy from Grace friend.

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brightfame52 said:

Thats fine, most people do, yet I see it as a disagreement with the testimony of scripture, that Salvation is by Grace apart from the works of men. All was conditioned on Jesus Christ, and He accomplished it and applies it to all for whom He died, and as a result they believe.

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brightfame52 said:

The answer is absolutely yes. If we agree with the overall definition of work according to the greek word for work ergon:

See strongs # 2041:

1. business, employment, that which any one is occupied
   1. that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking
2. any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
   
   
   
3. an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work
   
   A work is anything done, accomplished by #1 hand, #2 art, #3 industry, #4 or MIND
   
   The mind is :
   
   (in a human or other conscious being) the element, part, substance, or process that reasons, thinks, feels, wills, perceives, judges, etc.
   
   Psychology. the totality of conscious and unconscious mental processes and activities.
   
   So believing something via the mental activity and process of reasoning is work. The process of decision making is a activity, work of the mind.
   
   Now for instance, the sin of hatred Gal 5:19-20
   
   
   Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
   
   
   20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
   
   How is that sin committed ? It starts in the mind or heart ! Yet in Vs 19 its stated as an work of the flesh
   
   So activity in and with the mind/heart is a work, this cannot be denied..
   
   Now believing is either a work of the flesh [unregenerate] or of the Spirit [ regenerated]
   
   But now Salvation is not by works, Neither by works of the flesh or works of the Spirit.

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brightfame52 said:

Thats fine, most people do, yet I see it as a disagreement with the testimony of scripture, that Salvation is by Grace apart from the works of men. All was conditioned on Jesus Christ, and He accomplished it and applies it to all for whom He died, and as a result they believe.

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