Johann
Well-Known Member
Every day I am learning new terminologies, not found in scriptures brother.
Glad to see you use Robertson word studies commentary...any others you would recommend?
Is believing/faith a work ?
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Glad to see you use Robertson word studies commentary...any others you would recommend?
Johann
Well-Known Member
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Baptism is a symbol of salvation in that it pictures Christ's death, burial and resurrection and our identification with Him in these experiences. In reality, believers are saved by what baptism symbolizes--Christ's death, burial and resurrection.
A man and a woman become united through their wedding vows and the ring symbolizes this. Just as we become united with Christ through faith and water baptism symbolizes this. Strictly speaking, the husband is united to his wife because of the marriage vows rather than the ring. Yet since the latter is the sign of their union, it is natural to speak of the ring to mean the reality it represents:
"With this ring, I thee wed," although the ring is not the actual cause of the change in the marital status, just like water baptism is not the actual cause of our salvation status.
Baptism put it in it's proper place, subsequent to salvation through faith in Christ as all works must be. This does not remove good works (including water baptism) from the Christian life, it just puts them in their proper place, subsequent to regeneration and salvation.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Johann
Well-Known Member
I use it a lot, but on this forum there is a strong aversion against anything "commentary" yet when I watch debate upon debate on YouTube, these participants have to go to secondary sources to prove a point.
Thanks brother.
Romans 6:4-5 Commentary | Precept Austin
That's fine my friend, but be cautioned because as stated you appear to be conditioning salvation on your works!
Johann
Well-Known Member
I use it a lot, but on this forum there is a strong aversion against anything "commentary" yet when I watch debate upon debate on YouTube, these participants have to go to secondary sources to prove a point.
Thanks brother.
J.
Eph_2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Workmanship , [ poieema (G4161)] - 'a thing of His making,' 'handiwork.' Here the spiritual creation, not the physical, is referred to (Eph_2:8-9).
Created - having been created (Psa_102:18; Isa_43:21; 2Co_5:5; 2Co_5:17; Eph_4:24),
Unto , [ epi (G1909) ergois (G2041)] - 'for good works.'
"Good works" cannot be performed until we are new 'created unto' or for them. Paul never calls the works of the law "good works." We are not saved by, but created for, good works.
Before ordained , [ proeetoimasen (G4282)] - 'before made ready' (cf. Joh_5:36).
God marks out for each in His purposes beforehand the particular good works, the time, and way, which He sees best. God both makes ready by His providence the opportunities for the works, and makes us ready for their performance (Joh_15:16; 2Ti_2:21).
That we should walk in them - not 'be saved' by them. Works do not justify, but the justified man works (Gal_5:22-25).
JFB
God’s grace changes people so that they do the good works to which God predestined them (1:4).
created in Christ Jesus. The risen Lord was the first to rise from the dead with a resurrected body (Col.
1:18), and those united to Him are new creations (2 Cor. 5:17).
The word "workmanship" is the Greek word poiema, which comes from the same root word as poietes. This tells us that when we were saved, God put forth all His best efforts and creative powers to marvelously fashion and create us in Jesus Christ.
Because the word poiema is used in Ephesians 2:10, it unmistakably means that God wielded His fullest, greatest, and most creative powers when we were born again. We weren't just mildly saved; rather, God took us into His hands and marvelously made us new in Jesus Christ as He released His most powerful creative forces and made us a workmanship that would be worthy to bear His name.
Whether the word poietes is used to depict a poet, as mentioned above, or (in another form) to describe God's creative power, as in Ephesians 2:10, it always depicts someone putting forth his fullest creative abilities to achieve something.
Now James uses this word poietes in James 1:22 to tell us that we must put forth our fullest efforts and most creative abilities in doing what we have heard preached! We cannot passively hope that the Word becomes a part of our lives; we have to get creative and find ways to make the Word a practical part of our lives. (Sparkling Gems from the Greek)
Good works
good: Mat_5:16; Act_9:36; 2Co_9:8; Col_1:10; 2Th_2:17; 1Ti_2:10, 1Ti_5:10, 1Ti_5:25; 1Ti_6:18; 2Ti_2:21, 2Ti_3:17; Tit_2:7, Tit_2:14, Tit_3:1, Tit_3:8, Tit_3:14; Heb_10:24, Heb_13:21; 1Pe_2:12
See how you veer off the beaten path?
Johann
Well-Known Member
Greene emphasizes that…
It is not the quantity of works (how much you do) that proves you are saved, but the fact that good works automatically follow salvation. The believers at Thessalonica proved their salvation by turning to GOD from idols, to serve GOD (Ed: Excellent illustration of repentance!) (1Thess 1:9-note). The Ephesian believers confessed, brought their books of magic and burned them before all the people, thereby proving that they had experienced a change of heart (~repentance) (Acts 19:18-20). The believers at Rome who were the servants of sin, obeyed from the heart the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith, and they became the servants of righteousness unto holiness (Ro 6:14-23-note). Works have nothing to do with redemption; but works testify that redemption has been wrought in the heart.
We work because we are the sons of GOD. We do not work to try to gain Heaven - we work because we are on the way to Heaven. Salvation is totally and entirely by Grace, the gift of GOD. Our eternal reward will be determined by our faithful works … our faithful stewardship. (Study carefully 1Cor 3:11-15.) (Ref)
It is not the quantity of works (how much you do) that proves you are saved, but the fact that good works automatically follow salvation. The believers at Thessalonica proved their salvation by turning to GOD from idols, to serve GOD (Ed: Excellent illustration of repentance!) (1Thess 1:9-note). The Ephesian believers confessed, brought their books of magic and burned them before all the people, thereby proving that they had experienced a change of heart (~repentance) (Acts 19:18-20). The believers at Rome who were the servants of sin, obeyed from the heart the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith, and they became the servants of righteousness unto holiness (Ro 6:14-23-note). Works have nothing to do with redemption; but works testify that redemption has been wrought in the heart.
We work because we are the sons of GOD. We do not work to try to gain Heaven - we work because we are on the way to Heaven. Salvation is totally and entirely by Grace, the gift of GOD. Our eternal reward will be determined by our faithful works … our faithful stewardship. (Study carefully 1Cor 3:11-15.) (Ref)
Johann
Well-Known Member
Johann
Well-Known Member
Can faith save him?
That is, can an empty profession of faith save someone?
2:16 Mere talk with no action evidences a vain and hypocritical religion (1 John 3:17–18).
2:17 being alone. Sinners are justified by faith alone (Gal. 2:16), and yet the faith by which they are
justified is never alone, but is accompanied by works of love (Gal. 5:6).
2:18 James gives his readers something, in direct speech, they could use against people who purport to
believe, and yet lack true faith: “You have a profession of faith, and I have works (together with faith).
Now, show me please your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”
2:19 Merely assenting to propositional truths, as important and necessary as these are, will not help a
person (1 Cor. 8:1; 13:2). Even the demons (devils) believe and tremble as well, which is more than
many people do.
2:21 justified by works. The word justified here does not mean “declared righteous by God the Judge”
(Deut. 25:1; Rom. 3:26), but “demonstrated to be righteous” (Luke 10:29; Rom. 3:4). offered Isaac.
God commanded this sacrifice to test Abraham but stopped him before he killed his son (Gen. 22).
2:22 perfect. Showed itself in glorious fullness (2 Cor. 12:9).
2:23 Abraham had already been counted (imputed ) righteous by faith (Gen. 15:6), but when he offered
Isaac upon the altar (Gen. 22), Abraham’s faith proved itself publicly, and thus his earlier justification
with God was fulfilled or seen to be true in its perfect fullness. Friend of God. Abraham had a vital and
personal relationship with God (2 Chron. 20:7; Isa. 41:8; cf. John 15:15), being reconciled to Him by
His grace in Christ (2 Cor. 5:18–21).
2:24 not by faith only. James was not disagreeing with Paul’s doctrine of justification by faith (Rom.
3:23–26; Gal. 2:16), but was using his terms differently. Paul spoke of true, saving faith, but James of a
mere profession of faith. Paul spoke about being counted righteous before God, but James of faith
proving itself true before others by the works that follow upon true faith.
2:25 Rahab the harlot. A Gentile convert in the line of Christ (Josh. 2:1–21; 6:17,23–25; Matt. 1:5;
Heb. 11:31). Lest anyone might think that Abraham was such a unique case that we could never attain
to, James refers also to Rahab, on the surface such a contrast to Abraham but also a person of true faith.
2:26 A body that does not move, breathe, or do anything is not alive, but is a corpse. So too, a
profession of faith that does not show itself in works is dead.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Not necessarily. Remember Abraham's experience? God cut a covenant with Abraham, but unlike the typical fashion of cutting a covenant, whereby both parties walk between the cuttings; only God walked between the cuttings. What did this signify?
Although the covenant had conditions, the covenant was not contingent on Abraham's participation. The same is true of Salvation, which is a covenant in the blood of Christ. Although this covenant is conditional, e.g. penitence, confession, faith, etc. the covenant is secured by God alone. He provides the faith and contrition necessary. My faith is a product of God's grace. Therefore, it is not a works based salvation.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
You appear to have an agenda, which seems to thwart meaningful conversation. Repeating yourself doesn't make it true. If you don't accept my reasons. That's fine. But don't expect further conversation.
Your first sentence is a lie because the Apostle says "Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?" (the Apostle Peter, Acts 15:10), so your thoughts in your very first sentence of "Commands DO imply ability" are contrary to Apostolic testimony. See "a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear".
When you wrote "else it makes NO SENSE in giving commands" then you contradict Apostolic testimony again because the Apostle gives a sensible explanation for God giving commands "If it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, 'You shall not covet.'” (The Apostle Paul, Romans 7:7) - God had me quote this verse to you in the post to which you replied. In essence, you adulterated Paul's writing into "If the law had not been, I would have known sin for it is senseless for God to issue the Law. For I would have known with the ability to obey what it is to not covet when the law had said, “You shall not covet.'" (the word of Ernest T. Bass).
Johann
Well-Known Member
For (1063) (gar) in Phil 2:13 explains how it is possible for us as believers to obey the command to continually work out our salvation. Our initial salvation (justification) was a supernatural work of God. Why would we think that the supernatural work of daily sanctification is anything less than His ongoing work in us! This verse explains God's role (God's sovereignty) in the believer's sanctification process, whereas the preceding verse explains our role (man's responsibility). It should be clear that without God "working in" the believer who is "working out" his or her own salvation, genuine sanctification would be impossible.
What Paul is doing in this section is to explain to the saints at Philippi how they can "conduct (themselves) in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ." (Phil 1:27)
Eadie - The for (gar) indicates the connection, not by assigning a reason in the strict sense of the term, but by introducing an explanatory statement:— Engage in this duty; the inducement and the ability to engage in it are inducement and ability alike from God… The position of Theos (God) shows the emphasis placed upon it by the apostle. God it is Who works in you—alluding to the inner operation of Divine grace—for en humin is not among you. There is special force in the form estin ho energon.
It is God - Note that God (theos) is placed first in the Greek to emphasize His vital role in this process. It is God alone. He is all we need. Our tendency is to think we can do it but by placing Theos or God in such an emphatic position, Paul wants us to be mindful that we cannot carry out this supernatural work of living a "Christ-ian" life without with Divine Assistance. We can live a religious life but it is like taking "Christ" out of the word "Christian"! Oh, how we need to keep this in mind as we seek to carry out the many commands in the NT, commands like mortify immorality, etc (Col 3:5-note). Men, just try to do that in your own strength! Need I say more? Thank You Father that Your commandments always include Your enablement!
Are you stalking us @Kermos?
Everyone here who don't hold to your essays are liars, this is what I would call harassment, violating a bunch of rules.
J.
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
The yoke of bondage refers to the OT law of Moses. That law required the Jew to keep all of it perfectly in order to be justified by it, therefore it made the Jew a slave to that law. They were not able to bear that slavery showing none could keep it perfectly. This does not in anyway prove lnability on man's part to keep God's laws. I never said man could keep God's law perfectly and God never required sinless law keeping from man to justify man but just a faithul obedience which is possible.
Rom 7:7 the law showed what sin is, therefore law is not a bad thing for learning the law Paul found out what sin is which is a good thing. Again, learning what sin is does not in anyway prove any inability on the part of man to have a faithful obedience to God.
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Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
The term baptismal regeneration means different things to different people. I do NOT believe in baptismal regeneration as a sacrament as Catholics do....
"Is the doctrine of “baptismal regeneration” scriptural? In order to answer such a question, one first must define precisely what he means by that designation.
Exactly what is “baptismal regeneration”? The phrase connotes different things to different people. For some, the expression is merely a bit of inflammatory rhetoric designed to intimidate those who affirm that baptism is a part of the regeneration process. To others, it is the notion that baptism is a “sacrament” which has a sort of mysterious, innate power to remove the contamination of sin — independent of personal faith and a volitional submission to God’s plan of redemption.
The doctrine of baptism’s essentiality has the support of the Bible; the “sacramental” ideology does not. Let us reflect upon this latter concept.
“Baptism,” as administered by the Roman Catholic Church, reflects a form of “baptismal regeneration” that is wholly at variance with the New Testament. A leading Catholic authority defines “baptism” in the following fashion:
This view involves the idea that “baptism” need not be accompanied by faith, or personal surrender to the Lord.
New Testament Baptism
First, there is nothing in the teaching of the Scriptures which would even remotely suggest that there is some magical essence inherent in the water of baptism that can effect forgiveness of sin. Rather, baptism, i.e., immersion in water, is a rite that is accompanied by both faith (Mark 16:16) and repentance (Acts 2:38). Void of those prerequisites, it has no validity whatever.
Second, baptism is an act of obedience wherein one expresses his confidence in the power of Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection to produce pardon. Paul makes it quite clear that when one is buried with Christ through baptism, it is into the Lord’s death, i.e., the benefits of his death, that the sinner comes.
And, just as the Son of God was raised from the dead to the glory of Father, even so, when one is raised from the burial of baptism, he passes into a state characterized as “newness of life” (Rom. 6:4).
The power to save is in Jesus’ death and resurrection. Penitent believers access that power when they humbly submit to the Lord’s requirement to replicate the Savior’s burial and resurrection in the action of baptism (cf. Col. 2:12-13).
Third, though we readily acknowledge that there is no “sacramental” power intrinsic to the water of baptism, that does not give us leave to repudiate the sacred connection between the rite of baptism and forgiveness. To do so, is to ignore numerous passages of the plainest import.
Salvation is preceded by both faith and baptism, according to the precise language of Mark 16:16. The Greek text literally suggests: “He who has believed, and who has been immersed, shall be saved.” In a parallel passage, baptism is viewed as the culminating act by which one is acknowledged as a disciple (Mt. 28:19 – ASV).
Jesus informed Nicodemas that one does not enter the kingdom of God except by the new birth process (Jn. 3:5), which involves “water,” i.e., baptism. Not many would deny that the new birth and “regeneration” are equivalents. Hence, there is a solid connection between regeneration and the birth that involves water. For fifteen centuries it was conceded that the “water” of this passage is an allusion to baptism.
John Calvin introduced the novel view that the “water” must be spiritualized, and he has been followed by numerous advocates of the doctrine of salvation by “faith alone.” The historian Philip Schaff observed that Calvin’s view was an excessive reaction to the dogma of Catholicism, and that it is impossible to disassociate the “water” in this verse from the rite of baptism (Lange, p. 127).
When asked: “What shall we do?” by sincere folks who had been convicted of their sin guilt, Peter informed them that they must repent and be baptized “for the forgiveness of your sins” (Acts 2:38). No sectarian quibble can evade the force of this transparent command and the design associated with it.
Paul of Tarsus, who had been praying for days — and still was lost, was instructed to: “Arise, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name” (Acts 22:16). This was not “baptismal regeneration” in a mystical sense; rather, it was merely submission to an inspired ordinance.
It is by baptism that one is said to enter “into Christ” (Rom. 6:4; Gal. 3:27), wherein salvation is located (2 Timothy 2:10).
Paul describes baptism as a “washing of water,” or a “washing of regeneration,” in connection with which the sinner is “cleansed” or “saved” (Eph. 5:26; Tit. 3:5). A.T. Robertson, a Baptist scholar, concedes that both of these passages allude to water baptism (p. 607). And so, while the Roman Catholic dogma of “baptismal regeneration” is false, there is a perfectly legitimate nexus between baptism and regeneration.
Peter unequivocally affirms that baptism is involved in our salvation. Just as Noah and his family were transported from an environment of corruption into a realm of deliverance, so, similarly, in baptism we are moved from the world of defilement into a redeemed relationship with the Lord (1 Pet. 3:21).
One does not have to believe in the Catholic concept of “baptismal regeneration” in order to acknowledge that there is a relationship between water immersion and forgiveness, in the passages cited above."
Footnote: Attwater, Donald. 1961. A Catholic Dictionary. New York, NY: Macmillan.
What Is Baptismal Regeneration?
Exactly what is "baptismal regeneration"? Is this doctrine scriptural?
christiancourier.com
You conveyed that a man thinking is not a work wayyyyy back in this chain of correspondence (just click the links in each post's quote header to step back through the correspondence), so the point is that a man thinking is a work because Jesus says a man's mind thinking does the work of loving God with "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind" (Matthew 22:37).
This means that a man purportedly choosing Jesus is the man doing a work thus the man would be saving the man by doing the work of choosing Jesus. But, man is not saved by works, so the man did not truly choose Jesus- that means the man chose something other than Jesus - destruction.
Your opening line of your post is a lie because even the posts that you have been replying address your bullet points - but your tongue is unable to respond in righteousness, so you lie - just see the post to which you replied or the below.
Your illegal grammar wrongly divides the Word of God such as your bullet point above "--the required WORK in order to" where your heart's treasure (Matthew 15:16-19) wickedly separates "the work of God" from "believe" recorded in John 6:29!
The following carefully examines the Lord's words with legal grammar in Truth (John 14:6).
REGARDLESS OF THE SURROUNDING CONVERSATION IN JOHN CHAPTER 6, THE WORD OF GOD DEFINES THAT I BELIEVE IN HIM WHOM THE FATHER HAS SENT (JOHN 6:29) AS BEING THE WORK OF GOD; THEREFORE, GOD CONTROLS BELIEF/FAITH IN ME, AND THIS BLESSING DECLARED BY JESUS APPLIES TO EVERY BELIEVER IN ALL TIME!
After the people asked "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" (John 6:28) of Jesus, then the Lord dispels the notion that man manipulates faith/belief with His response of "this is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29). Notice Jesus' removal of the work of men, so man does not manipulate faith/belief according to Jesus (John 6:29).
When you preach things like "The people asked what work is it that WE DO and not what work will God do for us. Jesus gave them a work to do: believe", then your heart (Matthew 15:16-19) adulterates the Word of God into "this is you working the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (the word of Ernest T. Bass).
In effect, you think "this is you controlling the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (the word of Ernest T. Bass).
To further paraphrase while maintaining your context, you promote "this is you controlling God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (the thoughts of Ernest T. Bass' heart).
Your heart's treasure of "you controlling God" exalts yourself like the Most High. It is written "you said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’" (Isaiah 14:13-14), and the passage is followed by the result of being thrust into the pit (Isaiah 14:15).
In Truth (John 14:6), Lord Jesus says God controls man for the Lord's proclamation of "this is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29) uses intentional grammatical structure resulting in "you believe in Him whom He has sent" being the sentence subject, and "is the work of God" is the predicate, and the word "is" is the verb in "is the work of God", and the direct object of the sentence is "the work of God", so the spiritual food that the Son of Man gives (John 6:27) is that God controls the "you believing in Him whom He has sent" subject of the sentence (John 6:29).
Every single one of us Christians believing in Jesus whom the Father has sent is fully the work of God (John 6:29), both the "you" and the "believing" in John 6:29 are caused/created/controlled by God, by God's grace for God's glory.
I proclaim to you that the Word of God says "this is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).
NO SCRIPTURE STATES MAN HAS A FREE-WILL TO CHOOSE JESUS UNTO SALVATION, SO SELF-WILLED PERSONS REVILE KING JESUS (2 PETER 2:9-10) BY THEIR THOUGHTS THAT THEY CHOOSE JESUS DESPITE LORD JESUS SAYING "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU" (JOHN 15:16) AND "COLOR=RED]I CHOSE YOU OUT OF THE WORLD[/COLOR]" (JOHN 15:19, INCLUDES SALVATION) AND "WHAT I SAY TO YOU I SAY TO ALL" (MARK 13:37).
See Lord Jesus Christ's sayings "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).
You still dont get it, this isnt about post salvation works, this is about if someone conditions their salvation on something they do, meaning that God doesnt save you until you do something, meet a condition like believing, repentance, water baptism etc, that constitutes salvation by works, and they are in danger of being under the curse of the law.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Listen, I have finally discovered the hidden objection and argument, which was framed in such a deceitful way. The OP is attempting to challenge the Protestant slogan "faith alone", which stands in direct opposition with the Catholic teaching concerning the sacraments. Protestants teach that faith is the sole instrument through which we receive Christ's benefits.
By contrast, One who practices sacramentalism, believes that the observance of the sacraments is necessary for salvation or at least they believe in the efficacy of the sacraments as the means to God's grace. In other words, bottom line, "sanctification by sacramental praxis" rather than, as the Bible teaches, "sanctification by the Holy Spirit." Catholicism is a man-made religion and as such, it contains all the hall-marks of a man-made religion centered on the question, "what must I DO to be saved?" We want to do something to show ourselves approved. The Catholics answer the question this way, "In order to be saved, what you must do is Baptism, Confirmation, Eucharist, Reconciliation, Anointing of the Sick, Matrimony, and Holy Orders." But such things have only the appearance of holiness. The truly "holy" person is one in which the Holy Spirit is at work.
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