You Know You're a Pharisee If...

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HammerStone

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Look, this article condemns things I STRUGGLE with even today - but the Lord showed me grace on some of these things, I have repented of my past actions. However, I think this article hits right on some issues that I struggle with and some issues I see in this community. Pastor Perry Noble made a list of eight things that suggest you're a Pharisee.

I select a few points that hit home for me, I really recommend the entire article.

#1 – I was way more obsessed with the sins and shortcomings of others and made it my obsession to point out their faults so that I did not have to deal with my own. (Matthew 23:27-28)

#3 I would not associate with anyone or any group that did not acknowledge that I was completely correct in my view and interpretation of the Scriptures…and, if they didn’t see just like me I would attack and malign them as often as possible. (Kind of goes against what Jesus said in John 13:34-35)

#7 – I could not acknowledge anything that the Lord might have been doing that did not fit into my system of the way I believed God should do things (read Matthew 28:11-15, these guys, after hearing about the resurrection by eyewitnesses tried to suppress the story rather than being amazed by it!)

Full List/Article: http://www.perrynoble.com/2012/05/02/eight-ways-to-tell-that-i-might-be-a-pharisse/
 

biggandyy

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Number 5 is a double edged sword...

#5 – I was known more for what I attacked rather than what I built up!

I am often accused of attacking Spiritual Gifts because I deny several of them are extant during the Church Age. I, however, seek only to build up the gifts we are told are more excellent than those, and defend and build up the Gifts that the Church routinely ignores or considers second rate or mundane.

I occasionally struggle with number 6, but I've trained myself to have much more humbleness than most and have overcome it all on my own ;)
 

Hollyrock

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When we walk and live in the spirit of love and humility, we won't fulfill the lust of the flesh... but of course we stumble from time to time
 

Rach1370

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Perry Noble's cool. I struggle with, and have been learning from my problems with #2 and #7. I'm not really vocal about it, but yeah, in my head I would so often frown at what others were doing or saying...judge them harshly. I all lot of things I considered 'weirdo' I automatically dismissed as possibly being biblical. I have a long way to go, but certainly God is growing me in these areas. I'm at a point where if anything 'new' to me arises, I'll almost eagerly back off, and consider if it's biblical, if it honours God and glorifies Him. It's actually kind of neat, because suddenly a whole new world has been opened...of things that God loves and approves of.
And while I'm still not great at silently judging people...it still tends to be my instant reaction, I'm feeling it more, and also stopping after I 'label' something someone else has done, and ask myself whether I'm doing it too, or what I'm doing wrong. So yeah, God's definitely working on me there!
 

Episkopos

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...if you think you're the Publican in the parable of the publican...;)
 

aspen

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I think I have fallen into all 8 of the characteristics from time to time - the strange part is that it seems to happen more in my career than in my spirituality. It is often easier, for example, for a counselor to immerse themselves in a long list of clients than deal with personal issues - #1

Or #3 - only associating with colleagues that share my own views on the counseling process.

Or #7 - guarding my territory by not allowing other professionals to influence me.

All of the characteristics of a Pharisee are stifling to the counseling process.

When it comes to my spirituality and faith - I tend to move in the opposite direction, which can be just as much of a problem. I tend to overlook justice and right doctrine for God's merciful character.
 

Strat

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This article seems to say that everything is negotiable and the way is wide..it isn't.
 
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The Pharisees argued directly for the opposite of what Jesus said. If we claim to be believers and do that we are doing the same as the Pharisees. However as believers we are not to fall out over disputable matters, and to teach, correct rebuke each other from scripture so that we are equipped for every good work. (2 Tim 3)
 

HammerStone

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Andy, I think the difference is that the wrong things need to be torn down, but Jesus, as our example, always built back up. I would submit Nicodemus as a prime example. Sometimes when he says the way is hard, people peeled off and dropped it, but if they still came he built them up. I see way too many Christians on this board who simply tear down because someone doesn't see it the same way. I'm not talking salvation essentials, I'm talking little things.

This article seems to say that everything is negotiable and the way is wide..it isn't.

I see the article more as perspective based as opposed to truth based. Maybe you can elaborate as to why you see it this way?

The Pharisees argued directly for the opposite of what Jesus said. If we claim to be believers and do that we are doing the same as the Pharisees. However as believers we are not to fall out over disputable matters, and to teach, correct rebuke each other from scripture so that we are equipped for every good work. (2 Tim 3)

Well, while that's certainly true to an extent, that's not exactly the full picture. One of the characteristics of the Pharisees is that they would take an existing law from the Torah (Bible) and then come up with another law as a means to prevent breaking of the original law. While it becomes oppositional to what God says in the end, it actually seeks to build (wrongly) on what God has said, so often it's not doing the opposite thing, but making a law more strict, thereby missing the point of God and His law.

We get legalism from the Pharisees and it's definitely a very real Christian struggle. It's easy to get caught up in "What sins did you commit this week?" language which places a person in the positions Perry mentioned.

It's funny the responses that this article has brought out, because I didn't see this as very controversial. These are things I struggle with - some more than others - and things I've had to repent of along the way. It makes me ask, at what point is it ME and NOT GOD when I engage in debate? One can always claim the moral high ground and say they have the truth, but is it really about truth when after 10 pages of yelling you've run the other guy into the ground because of the day he worships on? Does that really fix the problem? (Obviously not, since the hypothetical two of you still disagree.) And chances are, you've probably managed to scare away some unbelievers as well.

I've been guilty of this. I maybe "win" the battle, but lose the campaign. Put in another way, I make a point instead of making a difference.
 

aspen

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I think the real danger with debate is not the influencing of another person's doctrine, but the possible damage to their faith. Doctrine is how we express and understand our faith, but faith, itself is from God. Sometimes I wonder if damaging another person's faith, simply to win points, or even for noble reasons like trying to correct heresy, but in a harsh manner is going to be judged harshly on Judgement Day.
 

Strat

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Andy, I think the difference is that the wrong things need to be torn down, but Jesus, as our example, always built back up. I would submit Nicodemus as a prime example. Sometimes when he says the way is hard, people peeled off and dropped it, but if they still came he built them up. I see way too many Christians on this board who simply tear down because someone doesn't see it the same way. I'm not talking salvation essentials, I'm talking little things.



I see the article more as perspective based as opposed to truth based. Maybe you can elaborate as to why you see it this way?



Well, while that's certainly true to an extent, that's not exactly the full picture. One of the characteristics of the Pharisees is that they would take an existing law from the Torah (Bible) and then come up with another law as a means to prevent breaking of the original law. While it becomes oppositional to what God says in the end, it actually seeks to build (wrongly) on what God has said, so often it's not doing the opposite thing, but making a law more strict, thereby missing the point of God and His law.

We get legalism from the Pharisees and it's definitely a very real Christian struggle. It's easy to get caught up in "What sins did you commit this week?" language which places a person in the positions Perry mentioned.

It's funny the responses that this article has brought out, because I didn't see this as very controversial. These are things I struggle with - some more than others - and things I've had to repent of along the way. It makes me ask, at what point is it ME and NOT GOD when I engage in debate? One can always claim the moral high ground and say they have the truth, but is it really about truth when after 10 pages of yelling you've run the other guy into the ground because of the day he worships on? Does that really fix the problem? (Obviously not, since the hypothetical two of you still disagree.) And chances are, you've probably managed to scare away some unbelievers as well.

I've been guilty of this. I maybe "win" the battle, but lose the campaign. Put in another way, I make a point instead of making a difference.

Since when is truth perspective based ? there are things that are not essential and arguing over them is useless...even the essentials are now up for debate... the perspective here is that politeness,acceptence and manners trumps all...was Jesus always polite in regard to the truth...speaking the truth has become improper and impolite in this emotionally based and driven society and the motto is it feels good to feel good about feeling good....get in the way of that and you're in trouible because what is true for you may not be true for me.
 

HammerStone

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You know what's funny about a statement like that?

Jesus was pretty polite to an adulterer. He was downright nice to a tax collector. He forgave a man who was condemned on a cross - and had obviously done something to warrant such a punishment as confessed in Scripture. If you want to take it to another level, he was a heck of a lot nicer to the guy who would eventually betray and kill him than I could ever be. Yet, we try and take you'll know them by their fruit(Matthew 7:16) and by their love (John 13:35) and turn it in to, you'll know them by their doctrine and how you feel about it. There's a lot of erroneous doctrine on this site, but then there are a lot of correct doctrines and people are continuing to find Christ.

The perspective here is actually that we're not Jesus and so we don't virtually walk around acting like it. We're a community full of sinners out to discover all aspects of life in Jesus. If you don't like it, hey that's your prerogative, but at the end of the day our fruit involves how we treat people and, as the blog post points out, the Pharisees of old are just like the Pharisees of today.
 
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Hammerstone,
Thats interesting. Can you give an example of the additional laws the Pharisees came up with? Not sure I agree with that.

It's easy to get caught up in "What sins did you commit this week?" language
I rarely ever hear such language, but yes that is law and legalism. Christians rarely challenge non-believers in such a way; this usually comes from those who call themselves Christians objecting to scripture they don't agree with... like the Pharisees in fact.

aspen2,
The truth either convicts or is rejected. One cant grow in Christ by sitting back and not being challenged as well as encouraged. The truth cant really damage a person's faith. Doctrine is part of faith, you are wrong to say otherwise, the NT teaching says sound doctrine is important, if one doesnt have sound doctrine one doesnt have faith in God. Jesus said His words are spirit and life.
I mean how can one have faith with heresy, if its not of God its not faith in God. Your statement doesnt make sense.
How about if one does correct according to the truth Jesus will say well done good and faithful servant,

You know the scripture is wonderful. Its encouraging and challenging. Do you see it as harsh?
 

aspen

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Hammerstone,
Thats interesting. Can you give an example of the additional laws the Pharisees came up with? Not sure I agree with that.

I rarely ever hear such language, but yes that is law and legalism. Christians rarely challenge non-believers in such a way; this usually comes from those who call themselves Christians objecting to scripture they don't agree with... like the Pharisees in fact.

aspen2,
The truth either convicts or is rejected. One cant grow in Christ by sitting back and not being challenged as well as encouraged. The truth cant really damage a person's faith. Doctrine is part of faith, you are wrong to say otherwise, the NT teaching says sound doctrine is important, if one doesnt have sound doctrine one doesnt have faith in God. Jesus said His words are spirit and life.
I mean how can one have faith with heresy, if its not of God its not faith in God. Your statement doesnt make sense.
How about if one does correct according to the truth Jesus will say well done good and faithful servant,

You know the scripture is wonderful. Its encouraging and challenging. Do you see it as harsh?

Doctrine is the language of faith.

Correcting doctrine is fine if it done in a civil manner. No need to get all crazy and antisocial. Remember God is tolerating a lot more heresy right now then you ever will have to deal with and He has his reasons for doing so - He might just be telling you to 'get behind me Satan'

Faith is given to us by God - doctrine is developed by us in response to our faith.

Do you really believe God created Truth for the sole purpose of correcting and punishing His children? We are living plan B. Truth / love / beauty were created for His glory and pleasure, not to correct. We were the ones who decided to disobey Him!

You are very wrong if you believe truth cannot hurt faith. Most ex-Mormons, ex-JWs are atheists and want nothing to do with God. If there faith was trampled by a zealot, why would they want to be apart of their belief system? Finally, every felon I have ever met has said one of two things "I am not guilty!" or "People made me do it because they couldn't handle the truth!"
 

HammerStone

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An easy example would be Jesus on the sabbath.

Since the work is already done for me:

4.8 The Dispute over the Disciples’ Plucking of Grain on the Sabbath (Mark 2:23–28; Luke 6:1–5; Matt. 12:1–8) (JaS 38)


m. Šabbat 7.2*
This passage from the Mishnah, if at all representative of the kinds of prohibitions in Jesus’ day, reveals the strictness with which the commandment “to keep the Sabbath holy” was understood.
A. The generative categories of acts of labor [prohibited on the Sabbath] are forty less one:
B. (1) he who sews, (2) ploughs, (3) reaps, (4) binds sheaves, (5) threshes, (6) winnows, (7) selects [fit from unfit produce or crops], (8) grinds, (9) sifts, (10) kneads, (11) bakes;
C. (12) who shears wool, (13) washes it, (14) beats it, (15) dyes it;
D. (16) spins, (17) weaves,
E. (18) makes two loops, (19) weaves two threads, (20) separates two threads;
F. (21) ties, (22) unties,
G. (23) sews two stitches, (24) tears in order to sew two stitches;
H. (25) he who traps a dear, (26) slaughters it, (27) flays it, (28) salts it, (29) curds its hide, (30) scrapes it, and (31) cuts it up;
I. (32) he who writes two letters, (33) erases two letters in order to write two letters;
J. (34) he who builds, (35) tears down;
K. (36) he who puts out a fire, (37) kindles a fire;
L. (38) he who hits with a hammer; (39) he who transports an object from one domain to another—
M. lo, these are the forty generative acts of labor less one.

4.9 Synagogue Sabbath Healing: The Man with the Withered Hand (Mark 3:1–6; Luke 6:6–11; Matt. 12:9–14) (JaS 39)

Testament of Simeon 2.12–13

In this passage from the Testament of Simeon, we see the respect placed upon healing as a sign of God’s forgiveness and blessing (for repentance).
12The Lord bound my hands and feet, however, and thus prevented my hands from performing their deeds, because for seven days my right hand became partly withered. 13I knew, children, that this had happened to me because of Joseph, so I repented and wept. Then I prayed to the Lord God that my hand might be restored and that I might refrain from every defilement and grudge and from all folly, for I knew that I had contemplated an evil deed in the sight of the Lord and of Jacob, my father, on account of Joseph, my brother, because of my envying him.

m. Šabbat 22.6*

According to this rabbinic tradition, a person was not even allowed to set a broken bone on the Sabbath.
E.… And they do not straighten [the limb of] a child or set a broken limb.

m. ʿEduyyot 2.5*

This passage from the Mishnah reveals restrictions placed on medical treatment and healing on the Sabbath. See also m. Šabbat 14.4 and 19.2 below.
A. Three matters did they say about before R. Ishmael, and he did not rule concerning them either to prohibit or to permit, and R. Joshua b. Matya worked them out.
I B. He who cuts open an abscess on the Sabbath—
C. if it is to make an opening for it, he is liable.
D. But if it is to draw out the pus from it, he is exempt.
II E. And concerning him who traps a snake on the Sabbath—
F. if he got involved with it so that it would not bite him, he is exempt.
G. But if it was for purposes of healing, he is liable.…
m. Šabbat 14.4*
A. He who is concerned about his teeth may not suck vinegar through them.
B. But he dunks [his bread] in the normal way,
C. and if he is healed, he is healed.
D. He who is concerned about his loins [which give him pain], he may not anoint them with wine or vinegar.
E. But he anoints with oil—
F. not with rose oil.
G. Princes [on the Sabbath], anoint themselves with rose oil on their wounds, since it is their way to do so on ordinary days.
H. R. Simeon says, “All Israelites are princes.”

m. Šabbat 19.2*

For the text of 19.2, see m. Šabbat 19.1–2 in section 13.12 below.

t. Šabbat 16.22*

According to this passage from the Tosefta, Shammai did not permit prayer for the sick on the Sabbath, but Hillel did allow it.
A. And so did Rabban Simeon b. Gamaliel say, “The House of Shammai say, ‘They do not distribute charity to the poor on the Sabbath in the house of assembly—
B. “*‘even funds to marry an orphan boy and an orphan girl.
C. “*‘And they do not make a match between a man and his mate.
D. “*‘And they do not pray for a sick person on the Sabbath.’
E. “And the House of Hillel permit.”

CD 11.5–18

The Damascus Document at Qumran gives certain restrictions for life on the Sabbath within the Qumran community.
5 … No-one should go after an animal to pasture it outside his city, except for 6a thousand cubits.… He is not to raise his hand to strike with the fist.… If 7it is stubborn, he should not remove it from his house.… No-one should remove anything from the house 8to outside or from outside to the house. Even if he is in a hut, he should remove nothing from it 9or bring anything into it. He is not to open a sealed vessel on the sabbath.… No-one should wear 10perfumes on the sabbath, to go out or come in.… In his dwelling no-one should lift 11a stone or dust. The wet-nurse should not lift the baby to go out or come in on the sabbath.… 12No-one should press his servant or his maidservant or his employee on the sabbath.… {Not} No-one should help an animal give birth on the sabbath day … And if he makes it fall into a well 14or a pit, he should not take it out on the sabbath. No-one should stay in a place close 15to gentiles on the sabbath … No-one should profane the sabbath by riches or gain on the sabbath … 16And any living man who falls into a place of water or into a place <…>, 17no-one should take him out with a ladder or a rope or a utensil. No-one should offer anything upon the altar on the sabbath, 18except the sacrifice of the sabbath, for thus it is written: Lev 23:38 “except your offerings of the sabbath.”

Bock, D. L., & Herrick, G. J. (2005). Jesus in Context: Background Readings for Gospel Study (80–82). Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Academic.

I can provide more as this was the MO of the Pharisees.

I rarely ever hear such language, but yes that is law and legalism. Christians rarely challenge non-believers in such a way; this usually comes from those who call themselves Christians objecting to scripture they don't agree with... like the Pharisees in fact.

Well, you don't hear that outright, but I've heard plenty of variations. One of my least favorites is that "Where were you last week at church?" Thank God I don't hear that one at my current church, but I've had that question asked of me in a tone where the intent is clear. In college, I even had my now wife (who didn't drink) be subjected to accusations of drinking when she didn't show up for a girls study one Wednesday. Unfortunately, she was off sinning by working a job and studying for an exam.

If you'll listen to any gossip, and I mean any gossip, stuff like this comes up all the time. "Did you hear what she/he did?"

This is another topic on its own, but I see believers applying things to nonbelievers pretty often. Homosexuality is a great example - and one that I struggle with myself to fully define - but we don't want to apply the entire book of Romans - which talks about fallen nature and being born into sin - into the message to homosexuals. We've got the whole it's wrong part down pat, but it ends there when it comes to our general response, quite unlike many other sins. We don't shun large gluttons in church services. We even tend to accept adulterers, people obsessed with money, etc.

In the end, the humility part seems to be missing when we address the sins of others.

(By the way, I appreciate your discussion here thus far.)
 

Strat

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You know what's funny about a statement like that?

Jesus was pretty polite to an adulterer. He was downright nice to a tax collector. He forgave a man who was condemned on a cross - and had obviously done something to warrant such a punishment as confessed in Scripture. If you want to take it to another level, he was a heck of a lot nicer to the guy who would eventually betray and kill him than I could ever be. Yet, we try and take you'll know them by their fruit(Matthew 7:16) and by their love (John 13:35) and turn it in to, you'll know them by their doctrine and how you feel about it. There's a lot of erroneous doctrine on this site, but then there are a lot of correct doctrines and people are continuing to find Christ.

The perspective here is actually that we're not Jesus and so we don't virtually walk around acting like it. We're a community full of sinners out to discover all aspects of life in Jesus. If you don't like it, hey that's your prerogative, but at the end of the day our fruit involves how we treat people and, as the blog post points out, the Pharisees of old are just like the Pharisees of today.


Has absolutely nothing to do with what i said,give your knees a break from all that jerking and realize that you cannot find a single post of mine where i advocate being rude or mean to anyone,but since i give the indication that truth is beyond perspective and experience as well as opinion you go off on some Pharisee rant...kind of reminds me of that episode of the Andy Griffith show...CITIZEN'S ARREST CITIZENS ARREST....take a break Barney.
 

aspen

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Has absolutely nothing to do with what i said,give your knees a break from all that jerking and realize that you cannot find a single post of mine where i advocate being rude or mean to anyone,but since i give the indication that truth is beyond perspective and experience as well as opinion you go off on some Pharisee rant...kind of reminds me of that episode of the Andy Griffith show...CITIZEN'S ARREST CITIZENS ARREST....take a break Barney.

And yet, you allow yourself to write rude posts regularly......

Seriously? Do you actually have such poor insight?
 
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Hi Aspen2,
I dont see where anyone has suggested teaching, correcting and even rebuking (2 Tim 3) should not be done in a civil manner.
Do you really believe God created Truth for the sole purpose of correcting and punishing His children?
I didn’t suggest anything of the sort, the opposite was implied. The truth results in salvation not punishment. Jesus said He came to save, not condemn.
I guess however you are right that the truth can hurt where people decide to reject it in anger. It does after all judge the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
 

HammerStone

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Has absolutely nothing to do with what i said,give your knees a break from all that jerking and realize that you cannot find a single post of mine where i advocate being rude or mean to anyone,but since i give the indication that truth is beyond perspective and experience as well as opinion you go off on some Pharisee rant...kind of reminds me of that episode of the Andy Griffith show...CITIZEN'S ARREST CITIZENS ARREST....take a break Barney.

Case in point, unfortunately.
 

Shirley

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This subject is interesting to me as I was raised by Pharisee's and it still hurts to this day. My Father will not make even the slightest attempt to build me up. I was not even really loved because of leaving his cult. Now the entire family has left his cult religion. He is concerned mostly with looking to see who is disobeying which man made rules. For example, one day he went to my Godly Sisters house and sneered and condemned because she had on a pair of shoes that had open toes. He then accused her of not being conservative any more. (she is very conservative)

When I said Dad I want to be friends in an effort to repair our relationship, he said birds of a feather flock together and I can't be your friend. I am so glad he is not God because I would not be saved if he was. I did not want anything to do with God until I found out the judgmental religion was wrong. Now my problem is how do I keep from judging them? I am not saved in their eyes. A woman is not allowed to cut her hair or wear pants so I must certainly be going to their eternal torture chamber. I always wondered if they were sure I was going to hell then why didn't they treat me as nicely as possible. If this life was all the reward I was going to get then why treat me so badly through out the years as if I were no longer part of the family. Oh--be ye separate.

I am angry with Pharisees of all kind so please pray for me!