Was Adam Imparted Free Will From The Beginning Of Creation?

amigo de christo · Jun 4, 2023

Johann said:
Well said my brother-let us worship and eulogize the Lord and great God Jesus Christ-who saved a wretch like us.
You are NOT an idiot my brother and enjoy your pathos for the cause of Christ Jesus.
Keep going, final home run-eyes on Jesus!
Yours-Johann.

If they called THE MASTER all sorts of names , THEY GONNA CALL US all sorts of names .
Names of which i have many and many of those names , out of respect for the living i cannot repeat .
TOO many four letter ones or ones to that effect .
THEY see us as idiots , BUT marvel not , I myself saw true lambs as OFF THE WALL CRAZY when i too was lost .
THE ONLY WAY eyes can be opened , IS BY THE LORD .
But just as it was in the days of the prophets of old , and just as it was in the days that CHRIST too walked this earth
MANY WHO PROCLAIMED TO KNOW GOD , REJECTED BOTH THE PROPHETS SENT TO THEM and THE VERY CHRIST OF GOD
that was sent to them . SO TOO many within even christendom are doing the SAME THING NOW .
Only just like back then they holler WE KNOW GOD , and holler GOD IS LOVE everytime one tries to correct them .
THEY call US the haters who dont know this all inclusive love god of many paths .
WELL , I DONT RECOGNIZE IT . cause it AINT GOD . THE ONLY GOD I RECOGNIZE IS THE GOD IN THAT BIBLE
and HIS CHRIST , HIS PROPHETS , HIS DOCTRINE . And i make zero apologies for saying so .
AND even what i do know CAME FROM GOD , WAS A GIFT and IS A GIFT . The only ONE
i can truly BOAST IN , GLORY IN , IS GOD , IS HIS CHRIST .
And yet , sadly , i say sadly for their sakes not mine , MOST FIND ME NOTHING BUT A HATER
one who hates GOD , one who hates mankind , BUT again marvel not . IF THEY DID THIS TO JESUS
IF THEY also persecuted the prophets sent by GOD . WELL what on earth makes us , WHO ARE OF HIM
think we wont be persecuted . OH WE WILL BE and its about to get MUCH worse .
BUT on that note , REJIOCE WHEN ye are persecuted , FORGIVE THOSE who do persecute ,
never conform to their ways either . FOLLOW THE KING NO MATTER the cost . AND IT WILL SOON get far worse
than any of us have ever experienced . OTHERS HAVE EXPERIENCED this persecution i speak about .
FOR MANY lambs have been persecuted and many even killed through all ages .
BUT ITS ABOUT TO HIT A HEAD and go all out viral , WORLD WIDE against the true lambs who conformend not
to the strong delusion , to the lie , to the darkness . Fear it not my friend . WE WIN FOR JESUS HAS ALREADY WON .

Johann · Jun 4, 2023

amigo de christo said:
If they called THE MASTER all sorts of names , THEY GONNA CALL US all sorts of names .
Names of which i have many and many of those names , out of respect for the living i cannot repeat .
TOO many four letter ones or ones to that effect .
THEY see us as idiots , BUT marvel not , I myself saw true lambs as OFF THE WALL CRAZY when i too was lost .
THE ONLY WAY eyes can be opened , IS BY THE LORD .
But just as it was in the days of the prophets of old , and just as it was in the days that CHRIST too walked this earth
MANY WHO PROCLAIMED TO KNOW GOD , REJECTED BOTH THE PROPHETS SENT TO THEM and THE VERY CHRIST OF GOD
that was sent to them . SO TOO many within even christendom are doing the SAME THING NOW .
Only just like back then they holler WE KNOW GOD , and holler GOD IS LOVE everytime one tries to correct them .
THEY call US the haters who dont know this all inclusive love god of many paths .
WELL , I DONT RECOGNIZE IT . cause it AINT GOD . THE ONLY GOD I RECOGNIZE IS THE GOD IN THAT BIBLE
and HIS CHRIST , HIS PROPHETS , HIS DOCTRINE . And i make zero apologies for saying so .
AND even what i do know CAME FROM GOD , WAS A GIFT and IS A GIFT . The only ONE
i can truly BOAST IN , GLORY IN , IS GOD , IS HIS CHRIST .
And yet , sadly , i say sadly for their sakes not mine , MOST FIND ME NOTHING BUT A HATER
one who hates GOD , one who hates mankind , BUT again marvel not . IF THEY DID THIS TO JESUS
IF THEY also persecuted the prophets sent by GOD . WELL what on earth makes us , WHO ARE OF HIM
think we wont be persecuted . OH WE WILL BE and its about to get MUCH worse .
BUT on that note , REJIOCE WHEN ye are persecuted , FORGIVE THOSE who do persecute ,
never conform to their ways either . FOLLOW THE KING NO MATTER the cost . AND IT WILL SOON get far worse
than any of us have ever experienced . OTHERS HAVE EXPERIENCED this persecution i speak about .
FOR MANY lambs have been persecuted and many even killed through all ages .
BUT ITS ABOUT TO HIT A HEAD and go all out viral , WORLD WIDE against the true lambs who conformend not
to the strong delusion , to the lie , to the darkness . Fear it not my friend . WE WIN FOR JESUS HAS ALREADY WON .

Simply love this brother-noticed this Forum is kinda "still/inactive?"

Maybe time to migrate to a Christian site that is more "lively?"
Johann.

Kermos · Jun 13, 2023

Johann said:
This is the scripture reference you post to me @Kermos?

2Pe_2:10 b. τολμηταὶ αὐθάδεις. αὐθ. is to be taken as an epithet of τολμηταὶ. The idea in τολμ. is of shameless and irreverent daring. αὐθάδεις (αὐτὸς and ἥδομαι) = “self-willed,” “arrogant”. In 1Ti_1:7, the ἐπίσκοπος must not be αὐθάδης, where the thought seems to be of irresponsibility in regard to the community. Cf. Didache 2Pe_3:6, μὴ γίνου γόγγυσος· ἐπειδὴ ὁδηγεῖ εἰς τὴν βλασφημίαν· μηδὲ αὐθάδης μηδὲ πονηρόφρων. ἐκ γὰρ τούτων ἁπάντων βλασφημίαι γεννῶνται.

The false teachers push forward their views, regardless of consequences. Cf. P. Amh. 78, 13 f. (ii., A.D.), μ[ου] πλεονεκτῖ ἄνθρωπος ἀ(υ)θάδης. “An audacious man is taking advantage of me.” δόξας οὐ τρέμουσιν βλασφημοῦντες. δόξας is used of Unseen Powers whether good or evil.

How can βλασφημ. be used of evil powers? It is obvious that we must find some sense for βλασφημεῖν here; and also in Jud_1:8, that will be applicable to δόξας, apart altogether from their moral character.

In Plato, Rep. 381 E, there occurs a passage dealing with the popular conception of the gods, which holds that they may sometimes change their form, and “in the likeness of wandering strangers, bodied in manifold forms, go roaming from city to city” (cf. Homer, Od. xvii. 485).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By such notions, as taught for example by mothers to their children, men may be said, “εἰς θεοὺς βλασφημεῖν”. Not only are these a misrepresentation of the Divine, but their tendency is to make light of it, belittle it, detract from its dignity. Some such sense of βλ. seems to be required here. The false teachers may have scoffed at the idea both of angelic help, and of diabolic temptation. Their tendency seems to have been to make light of the Unseen, to foster a sense of the unreality both of sin and of goodness, and to reduce the motives of conduct to a vulgar hedonism (cf. Mayor’s note, P. 74).

2:10–12 Peter asserts that even spiritual beings do not claim to have the type of authority and insight that the false teachers in his audience claim to have (compare Jude 8–10). These false teachers were claiming authority and understanding of things they could not possibly comprehend—particularly regarding when and whether Christ would return.

Since the false teachers in the community are reasoning away Christ’s authority and promoting their own—on the basis that He has not yet returned—Peter asserts that they must be heretics and not prophets (2 Pet 3:1–13).

On this basis, he makes the case that the authority they have arrogantly claimed actually proves that they have none according to God (see v. 11; compare note on 3:3).

2:10 Probably refers to high-ranking, powerful beings in the spiritual realm. The same Greek phrase used here is found in Jude 8. The phrase in Jude and 2 Peter emphasizes that unlike angels, who sensibly refrain from speaking against higher-ranking beings, false teachers presumptuously slander the words or authority of spiritual beings. They assume authority they do not have.

Here, Peter is likely referring to very high ranking beings, such as the level of Michael and the devil, with Michael even refraining from rebuking the devil on his own even though he has every right to do so (see Jude 9). Michael respects the devil’s rank, even though the devil is wrong; the false teachers respect neither truth nor authority. This fits the earlier analogy of Sodom and Gomorrah: the mob speaks against the angels when they attempt to rape them.
New Testament Terms for Unseen Divine Beings

2:12 Peter ridicules the false teachers’ claim of superior spiritual knowledge, stating that they are actually irrational, like animals. He is suggesting that false teachers will be destroyed because their knowledge is based on brute, not rational, sense (see note on 2 Pet 2:2; compare Jude 10).

They have spoken against the truth and in the process of doing so spoken against spiritual powers themselves (2 Pet 2:2, 10; compare Jude 10; Jas 3:3–12).
The false teachers prided themselves on their wisdom, but they were in fact blind to the truth (compare 2 Pet 1:9).

2:13–15 In this passage, Peter uses the example of Balaam’s error to describe the character of the false teachers (Num 22–24; see Jude 11). In using this story, he presents another rubric for identifying false teachers (see note on 2 Pet 2:1–3).

John D. Barry et al., Faithlife Study Bible (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2012, 2016), 2 Pe 2:10–15.

Transliteration: authadeis
Morphology: Adj-NMP
Adjective - Nominative Masculine Plural
Strong's no.: G829 (αὐθάδης)
Meaning: Self-satisfied, arrogant, stubborn.

self-willed | self-absorbed

(Titus 1:7) ΔεῖIt behooves γὰρfor τὸνthe ἐπίσκοπονoverseer ἀνέγκλητονblameless εἶναιto be, ὡςas ΘεοῦGod’s οἰκονόμονsteward; μὴnot αὐθάδηself-willed, μὴnot ὀργίλονquick tempered, μὴnot πάροινονgiven to wine, μὴnot πλήκτηνa striker, μὴnot αἰσχροκερδῆgreedy of base gain,

(2Pet 2:10) μάλισταespecially δὲthen τοὺςthose ὀπίσωafter σαρκὸς[the] flesh ἐνin ἐπιθυμίᾳ[the] passion μιασμοῦof defilement πορευομένουςwalking καὶand κυριότητοςauthority καταφρονοῦνταςdespising. τολμηταὶBold, αὐθάδειςself-willed, δόξαςglorious ones οὐnot τρέμουσινthey tremble βλασφημοῦντεςblaspheming,

Brother @Kermos when posting to me, at least quote context-unless you think I am a brute beast, ungodly, since you don't know the context of this passage, or you are "willfully-self willed" reckon me as ungodly, arrogant, self absorbed-because I don't hold to what you teach.

You are not my judge brother.
Keep your emotions and bitterness in check BEFORE posting, next time.

Later
Johann.

The scriptures is, not my emotions, certainly not bitterness, not your long post thay fails to mention 2 Peter 2:9, not your long post thay fails to include the 2 Peter 2:9-10 passage in it's entirety, truly this Scripture contains both blessing and curse which, with love, I share with you:

The Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority, daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties.
(The Apostle Peter, 2 Peter 2:9-10)

2 Peter 2:9-10 is a cohesive passage which must be taken as a unit, that is, a sentence.

My brother Peter was referring to people with "the unrighteous", for example, he mentioned "the flesh" in reference to "the unrighteous" so Peter is strictly referring to people. "The unrighteous" are "daring" in their claims against His Majesty, Jesus Christ, because they "self-will" assert "I chose Jesus" without trembling at such a "reviling" of the One who says:

"you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people, not man choosing God, but truly God choosing man.
"I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
"What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the glorious blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

Awesomely, the Christ of us Christians controls the Christian's will for it is written "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

Johann, do you control your will yourself or does God control your will?

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

Johann · Jun 13, 2023

Kermos said:
The scriptures is, not my emotions, certainly not bitterness, not your long post thay fails to mention 2 Peter 2:9, not your long post thay fails to include the 2 Peter 2:9-10 passage in it's entirety, truly this Scripture contains both blessing and curse which, with love, I share with you:

The Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority, daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties.
(The Apostle Peter, 2 Peter 2:9-10)

2 Peter 2:9-10 is a cohesive passage which must be taken as a unit, that is, a sentence.

My brother Peter was referring to people with "the unrighteous", for example, he mentioned "the flesh" in reference to "the unrighteous" so Peter is strictly referring to people. "The unrighteous" are "daring" in their claims against His Majesty, Jesus Christ, because they "self-will" assert "I chose Jesus" without trembling at such a "reviling" of the One who says:

"you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people, not man choosing God, but truly God choosing man.

"I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.

"What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the glorious blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

Awesomely, the Christ of us Christians controls the Christian's will for it is written "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

Johann, do you control your will yourself or does God control your will?

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

I have told you my will is sanctified-swallowed up in the sweet will of Christ Jesus-but I don't claim to be walking in the Spirit 24/7 as most here are saying. At the moment I am going through trials and testing's in South Africa-real rime-and do believe we are making choices-as it is MY choice to write to you now-and YOUR choice to respond-is that Holy Spirit led?

We are going to be judged before Christ based upon the works WE have done-in word-thought, and deeds-our works will be burned up-yet ourselves will be saved..
What about the ekklesia in Corinth? Believers-yet a whole lot of carnality.

I concur with the Scriptures you have posted-but I am in a process of growing IN Christ. And NOT in the Spirit 24/7 as some of the one's who have already obtained sinless perfection in THIS life.

Joh_14:6. ἐγώ εἰμι … ἐμοῦ. “I am the way and the truth and the life: no one comes to the Father save through me.” I do not merely point out the way and teach the truth and bestow life, but I am the way and the truth and the life, so that by attachment to me one necessarily is in the way and possesses the truth and the life. “The way” here referred to is the way to the Father. He is the goal of all human aspiration: and there is but one way to the Father, “no one comes,” etc.—καὶ ἡ ἀλήθεια, “and the truth,” primarily about God and the way to Him, but also as furnishing us with all knowledge which we now require for life. Thomas craved knowledge sufficient to guide him in the present crisis. Jesus says: You have it in me.—καὶ ἡ ζωή, “and the life”; the death which casts its shadow over the eleven and Himself is itself to be swallowed up in life. Those who are one with Jesus cannot die. They are possessed of the source of the source of life. Further see Hort’s The Way, etc., and Bernard’s Central Teaching.—οὐδεὶς ἔρχεται, “no one comes to the Father save through me” as the way, the truth, the life. It is not “through believing certain propositions regarding me” nor “through some special kind of faith,” but “through me”.

And please note the "whomsoever" as it stands written in Scriptures-Perfect Tense.

Adam was NOT a robot @Kermos-if we are mere "robots" then there was no need for Christ to die for the sins of the WHOLE world.

I don't hold to the doctrine of Calvin brother-this man has cause me a lot of hurt and grief-to this day.
An aside-talking about Scriptures is one thing-it is the DOING of what stands written-the acid test of a true born again believer, sealed with the Holy Spirit-that is what matters.

There is just no encouragement to be found on this Forum-no assistance-no transparency-and nobody is in need of being corrected-but a certain judgmental attitude and bickering and strife.

Shalom
Johann.

Johann · Jun 13, 2023

@Kermos

"RECEIVE," "BELIEVE," "CONFESS/PROFESS," and "CALL UPON"?

As an evangelical the Great Commission of the risen Lord, Matthew 28:18-20 has priority importance to me. My evangelicalism mandates a personal encounter with God through Christ. I have always pondered what "make disciples" means. Usually those Christian groups who emphasize an initial personal encounter model speak of

"receiving" – John 1:12
"believing" – Mark 1:15; John 3:16,18,36; 6:40; 11:25-26; Acts 10:43
"confessing"/"professing" – Matt. 10:32; Luke 12:8; John 9:22; 12:42; 1 Tim. 6:12; 1 John 2:23; 4:15
"calling on" – Rom. 10:9-13
but the Great Commission uses "making disciples" and "teaching them to observe all that I have taught you." Jesus' discussion of a gate (initial personal encounter) and a narrow road (daily godly living) in Matt. 7:13-14; Luke 13:24 has given me a key theological concept—salvation is a process- It starts with "an encounter" mechanism but is unclear exactly how that is done! Surely it is the initial wooing of the Spirit (John 6:44,65; 16:13-15) and a sense of personal sin and spiritual need, combined with a willingness to repent and believe (cf. Mark 1:15; Acts 2:38; 3:16,19; 20:21; 26:20). This initial encounter (aha moment) must then issue in a Christlike life (cf. Rom. 8:28-30; 2 Cor. 3:18; Gal. 4:19; Eph. 1:4; 2:10; 4:13; 1 Thess. 3:13; 4:3; 5:23; 2 Thess. 2:13; Titus 2:14; 1 Pet. 1:15) Justification and sanctification cannot, must not, be separated! I have come to believe that a mature salvation must involve

repentance, initial and continuing
faith/trust/belief, initial and continuing
perseverance throughout life
As I see it, there are two dangers.

an over-emphasis on initial salvation that sees salvation as a ticket to heaven at the end of life or an insurance policy unrelated to daily lifestyle choices
an over-emphasis on the path as a process where the issue becomes "do my good deeds outweigh my bad deeds?" ( a form of works righteousness)
Salvation is

a person to welcome (Jesus)
truths about that person to believe (the Bible)
a life like that person to live (Christlikeness)
Salvation is a free gift (Rom. 3:24; 6:23) of God's grace, Christ's finished work, and the leadership of the Spirit. The Christian life is also a grace gift that must be received daily. Here is the theological issue, "How does one receive/believe/call on/confess or profess?" Please look at the following notes and Special Topics:

receive –
believe –
confess/profess –
call on –
Salvation is a "gate" (initial personal encounter) and a way (daily godly living). These cannot be separated or reversed in time! The normal result of salvation is

Christlikeness (cf. Rom. 7:1; 8:28-30; 2 Cor. 3:18; Gal. 4:19; Eph. 1:4; 2:10; 4:13; 1 Thess. 3:13; 4:3; 5:23; 2 Thess. 2:15; 1 Pet. 1:15)
service (cf. Matt. 25:31-46)
"Only believe, only believe" or "do better" are both inappropriate statements.

I guess the reason for this Special Topic is my conflict in doing evangelism among Orthodox or Catholic populations. I meet so many people who obviously know and love Jesus but do not answer "my questions" in a way that I feel comfortable. But I think the problem is with my traditions. To assert that one must pray a "sinner's prayer," when this is not an emphasis in the NT, shows a theological bias. I do believe in the necessity of an encounter mechanism, but I must widen my own understanding of what this involves. A person's statement of faith and lifestyle fruit takes precedence over a certain methodology or theological construct.

Just a theological aside about "fruit." My understanding of this comes from two passages by Jesus.

the Sermon on the Mount – Matt. 7:13-23
the Parable of the Soils – Matt. 13:1-24; Mark 4:1-20; Luke 8:4-15
The "fruit" is not the way to be saved but the evidence of a true conversion (cf. James 2:14-26). No fruit, no root! Eternal life has observable characteristics!
Another theological aside about some of the inappropriate proof-text methods used by evangelicals:

using Rev. 3:20 as an initial salvation invitation when it is part of the letters to the seven churches (Revelation 2-3)
using the "Roman Road" as "the" way to be saved. The first three verses,
Rom. 3:23
Rom. 6:23
Rom. 5:8
summarize the gospel message, but there is no "encounter" verse in the literary unit of Romans, chapters 1-8, so we jump to the next literary unit on "why has Israel not believed the gospel?" (Romans 9-11) and quote Rom. 10:9-13 as the concluding act in "the" plan of salvation. Some even assert that because of Rom. 10:9-13, it must be a spoken prayer (i.e., Rom. 10:9).

or as I mentioned before in this Special Topic, we make "the sinner's prayer" (which probably comes from the parable of the Pharisee and the sinner, cf. Luke 18:9-14) "the" model for all salvation
Again, I want to affirm the necessity of "an encounter" mechanism but I think there are many ways.

a special moment of revelation (i.e., quoting a creed)
a special moment of worship (i.e., hearing a testimony or singing a hymn)
a life crisis
a dream encounter
surely prayer is a valid way
and many others
God is looking for the smallest response to flood us with His grace and salvation!

Salvation is the will of God for all humans (cf. John 1:12; 3:16; 1 Tim. 2:4; 4:10; Titus 2:11; 2 Pet. 3:9; 1 John 2:2; 4:14) made in His image for fellowship Jesus' life, teachings, and death paid the penalty of human sin and rebellion (cf. Romans 1-3). Now "whosoever will," "anyone who," "all," "as many as" become the open invitation! The drawing of the Spirit allows fallen humans to recognize their need, recognize God's provision in Jesus, and it also demands (1) a personal, decisive decision (i.e., a volitional choice) and (2) a lifestyle change.

The gospel is not difficult, tricky, or confusing but available, understandable, and open to all! Disciples are those who

hear
understand
respond
obey

May God forgive denominational arrogance and manmade barriers, but also may the "exclusivistic scandal" of John 10:1-8; 14:6; Acts 4:12; 1 Tim. 2:5 be proclaimed to all!
All may come and they may come in many ways, but they must all come through Jesus and live for Him (i.e., be changed, cf. Matt. 28:20)! There is only one door but it is wide open (cf. Acts 14:27; Col. 4:3; Rev. 3:7-8)—"as many as," "whosoever will," "all who" may enter!

This is good news-to me!
Johann.

Kermos · Jun 14, 2023

amigo de christo said:
so adam was not given free will . THUS in effect saying , GOD CAUSED ADAM and EVE TO EAT of the tree .
Wrong again .
Folks dont know the difference between free will and grace itself . NOW THAT is the problem .
SO , if i tell my son not to do something and he does it , THAT I CAUSED HIM TO DO IT .
GOD didnt cause adam or eve to eat of that tree . THEY DID THAT ALL BY THEMSELVES .
AND its not a SIN for GOD to give free will choice either . THE SIN is not in giving the free will
ITS ON THE SINNER WHO CHOOSES WRONGLY . Calvin is a liar and my advice is , DONT HEED ITs teachings .
GOD simply gave man free will . CHOOSE YE THIS DAY . NOT MY WILL but YOURS BE DONE .
JESUS CHRIST chose RIGHT , man chose wrong . Both were tempted , BUT JESUS PREVAILED .
NOT MY WILL , NOT MY WILL , NOT MY WILL , NOT MY WILL , BUT YOURS BE DONE . JESUS the KING around thrity three AD
shortly before he drank of the cup . NOT MY WILL , NOT MY WILL , NOT MY WILL , BUT YOURS BE DONE .
GOD gave free will PARD . MAN FAILED , BUT GOD PREVAILED . THE FIRST ADAM FAILED , BUT JESUS PREVAILED .

God Declares The Cause And Effect For Adam Eating Of The Forbidden Tree

After Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6), to Adam, God said "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life. Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field; By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return." (Genesis 3:17-19)
The word "because" inherently indicates cause in (Genesis 3:17), and the word "because" is the first word that God said to Adam in Genesis 3:17-19.

God declares the cause as being that Adam listened to the voice of his wife.

God LITERALLY stated that the CAUSE was Adam LISTENED to Adam's wife's voice; moveover, free will choice is NOT included as a CAUSE; therefore, the Apostle Paul's conveyance that Adam "not willingly" ate of the tree (Romans 8:20) is in accord with the recorded Word of God in Genesis 3:17 (This sidebar examines Paul's writing in Romans 8:20-22 as related to the creating account in Genesis chapters 1 to 3).

God declares the effect as being that the ground would be cursed because of Adam as well as to dust Adam would return.

God had me post this previously, amigo de christo and @Marvelloustime and @Johann, and if you spent just a little time looking, then you might have found the post.

Nonetheless, your opening 3 sentences, including "GOD CAUSED ADAM and EVE TO EAT of the tree" (amigo de christo), were proved deception before you composed your post because the cause of Adam eating of the tree was that Adam listened to Eve (Genesis 3:17), so Adam's will is not the cause (Romans 8:20-22), AND GOD IS CERTAINLY NOT THE CAUSE OF ADAM EATING OF THE TREE FORBIDDEN AS FOOD (SEE GENESIS 3:17 FOR THE CAUSE).

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

Johann · Jun 14, 2023

Kermos said:
free will choice is NOT included as a CAUSE; therefore, the Apostle Paul's conveyance that Adam "not willingly" ate of the tree (Romans 8:20) is in accord with the recorded Word of God in Genesis 3:17 (This sidebar examines Paul's writing in Romans 8:20-22 as related to the creating account in Genesis chapters 1 to 3).

No, I cannot agree with this @Kermos

Not of its own will (ouch hekousa). Common adjective, in N.T. only here and 1Co_9:27. It was due to the effect of man’s sin.
Word analysis
ἑκών (hekōn) 'voluntarily' (G1635)
voluntarily, by one’s own choice

This word occurs about 4 x
Meaning
voluntarily, by one’s own choice
willing, voluntary, by one’s own choice Rom. 8:20; 1Cor. 9:17*
LSJ dictionary
ἑκών, ἑκοῦσα, ἑκόν:
(ϝέκ- [Refs]; cf. Sanskrit váśmi 'wish'):—readily, [Refs 8th c.BC+]; ἑ. παρ᾽ ἑκόντος λαμβάνειν, i.e. by mutual consent, [Refs 4th c.BC+]
__2 wittingly, purposely, ἑκὼν δ᾽ ἡμάρτανε φωτός [Refs 8th c.BC+]
__3 in Attic dialect Prose [Refs 2nd c.AD+] as far as depends on one's will, as far as concerns one, with a negative, [Refs 5th c.BC+]; also in oblique cases, ὑπὸ σοῦ ἑκόντος εἶναι [Refs]; or in a sentence implying a negative, θαυμάζοιμεν ἂν εἰ.. τις ἑκὼν εἶναι (perhaps delendum).. ἀφικνεῖτα; [Refs 5th c.BC+]
__II rarely of things, κακὰ ἑ. κοὐκ ἄκοντα [Refs 5th c.BC+]
__III for adverb see ἑκοντήν, ἑκοντί: regular adverb ἑκόντως is uncertain in [Refs 2nd c.AD+]
Related words
unwilling (akōn - ἄκων)
voluntary (hekousios - ἑκούσιος)
ἑκοῦσα

Transliteration: hekousa
Morphology: Adj-NFS
Adjective - Nominative Feminine Singular
Strong's no.: G1635 (ἑκών)
Meaning: Willing, willingly, voluntarily.

willingly. Greek. hekon. Only here and 1Co_9:17.

Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope

Thanks
Johann.

Behold · Jun 14, 2023

Kermos said:
God's will is absolutely not a free-will, and man's will is absolutely not a free-will,

If God's will is not a Free Will, then who controls God's will?

Buddhah?
Santa Claus?

Also, man is made in the "image of God... in God's "Likeness", which is Wny Jesus told us, "ye are gods"... and this means that we have divine attributes... and one of them is "Free Will".

Here is what you have to understand.

If Man had no free will, then God can't judge man for sin.

See, sin, is the choice to sin (under the Law).... and if man does not have that choice, and they are sinning, then that means they are being caused to sin, which means they cant be held accountable for sin.

Did you notice that Hell and the Lake of Fire are waiting for people who chose to reject Christ and die, as an unbeliever?

"Free will" is counted by God.

That's a fact.

Behold · Jun 14, 2023

Kermos said:
God declares the cause as being that Adam listened to the voice of his wife.

Before Adam listened to Eve, God had already told them not to do it.

So, Adam chose and God responded, and now we have to be born again to be restored back to God.

amigo de christo · Jun 14, 2023

Kermos said:
God Declares The Cause And Effect For Adam Eating Of The Forbidden Tree
After Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6), to Adam, God said "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life. Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field; By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return." (Genesis 3:17-19)
The word "because" inherently indicates cause in (Genesis 3:17), and the word "because" is the first word that God said to Adam in Genesis 3:17-19.

God declares the cause as being that Adam listened to the voice of his wife.

God LITERALLY stated that the CAUSE was Adam LISTENED to Adam's wife's voice; moveover, free will choice is NOT included as a CAUSE; therefore, the Apostle Paul's conveyance that Adam "not willingly" ate of the tree (Romans 8:20) is in accord with the recorded Word of God in Genesis 3:17 (This sidebar examines Paul's writing in Romans 8:20-22 as related to the creating account in Genesis chapters 1 to 3).

God declares the effect as being that the ground would be cursed because of Adam as well as to dust Adam would return.

God had me post this previously, amigo de christo and @Marvelloustime and @Johann, and if you spent just a little time looking, then you might have found the post.

Nonetheless, your opening 3 sentences, including "GOD CAUSED ADAM and EVE TO EAT of the tree" (amigo de christo), were proved deception before you composed your post because the cause of Adam eating of the tree was that Adam listened to Eve (Genesis 3:17), so Adam's will is not the cause (Romans 8:20-22), AND GOD IS CERTAINLY NOT THE CAUSE OF ADAM EATING OF THE TREE FORBIDDEN AS FOOD (SEE GENESIS 3:17 FOR THE CAUSE).

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

Yep , adam chose his wife over GOD . HE chose to heed her , NOT GOD .
JESUS reminds us , HE who loveth wife , son , daughter , mother etc , MORE THAN ME AINT WORTHY OF ME .
CHOOSE YE THIS DAY whom ye shall serve , but as for the lambs ITS GONNA BE GOD , HIS CHRIST .
Now on that note , LET ALL that has breath both praise n thank the glorious Lord .

amigo de christo · Jun 14, 2023

Behold said:
Before Adam listened to Eve, God had already told them not to do it.

So, Adam chose and God responded, and now we have to be born again to be restored back to God.

EXACTLY .

Kermos · Jun 15, 2023

Johann said:
I have told you my will is sanctified-swallowed up in the sweet will of Christ Jesus-but I don't claim to be walking in the Spirit 24/7 as most here are saying. At the moment I am going through trials and testing's in South Africa-real rime-and do believe we are making choices-as it is MY choice to write to you now-and YOUR choice to respond-is that Holy Spirit led?

"The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control" (Galatians 5:22-23) is the Christian controlled by the Holy Spirit, so God causes me to write to you, not by my choice, but truly God working my will and my work of composing for it is written "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

Johann said:
We are going to be judged before Christ

I believe Christ when He says "Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven" (Matthew 9:2) as well as "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one" (John 10:27-30) and "I came that they may have life" (John 10:10) and "HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM IS NOT JUDGED" (John 3:18).

Please, keep in mind that the "BELIEVES" in John 3:18 is the work of God in us Christians because Christ says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

All glory is Christ's for the salvation of man! Praise the Lord!!!

Johann said:
based upon the works WE have done-in word-thought, and deeds-our works

"he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:21).

"You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:3).

"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:5).

All glory is Christ's for the purification of man! Praise the Lord!!!

Johann said:
will be burned up-yet ourselves will be saved..
What about the ekklesia in Corinth? Believers-yet a whole lot of carnality.

The Apostle Paul wrote something absolutely fascinating, and I detect a corollary between your writing and Paul's writing except for the diametric difference of you incorporating human "choice":

For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin. (Romans 7:14-25)

Did you see "no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me" (Romans 7:17)?

Johann said:
I concur with the Scriptures you have posted-but I am in a process of growing IN Christ. And NOT in the Spirit 24/7 as some of the one's who have already obtained sinless perfection in THIS life.

Joh_14:6. ἐγώ εἰμι … ἐμοῦ. “I am the way and the truth and the life: no one comes to the Father save through me.” I do not merely point out the way and teach the truth and bestow life, but I am the way and the truth and the life, so that by attachment to me one necessarily is in the way and possesses the truth and the life. “The way” here referred to is the way to the Father. He is the goal of all human aspiration: and there is but one way to the Father, “no one comes,” etc.—καὶ ἡ ἀλήθεια, “and the truth,” primarily about God and the way to Him, but also as furnishing us with all knowledge which we now require for life. Thomas craved knowledge sufficient to guide him in the present crisis. Jesus says: You have it in me.—καὶ ἡ ζωή, “and the life”; the death which casts its shadow over the eleven and Himself is itself to be swallowed up in life. Those who are one with Jesus cannot die. They are possessed of the source of the source of life. Further see Hort’s The Way, etc., and Bernard’s Central Teaching.—οὐδεὶς ἔρχεται, “no one comes to the Father save through me” as the way, the truth, the life. It is not “through believing certain propositions regarding me” nor “through some special kind of faith,” but “through me”.

And please note the "whomsoever" as it stands written in Scriptures-Perfect Tense.

Jesus is the Truth (John 14:6).

Johann said:
Adam was NOT a robot @Kermos-if we are mere "robots" then there was no need for Christ to die for the sins of the WHOLE world.

"On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory" (Paul, Romans 9:20-23)

Johann said:
I don't hold to the doctrine of Calvin brother-this man has cause me a lot of hurt and grief-to this day.

An aside-talking about Scriptures is one thing-it is the DOING of what stands written-the acid test of a true born again believer, sealed with the Holy Spirit-that is what matters.

Interesting, I don't find the name Calvin in Scripture.

I do find the Christ of us Christians in Scripture.

Johann said:
There is just no encouragement to be found on this Forum-no assistance-no transparency-and nobody is in need of being corrected-but a certain judgmental attitude and bickering and strife.

Shalom
Johann.

Look at your closing paragraph, Johann. Then, please go back to the post to which you replied (post 1,763). God caused me to reply to your post (1,756) explaining that you neglected to specifically mention 2 Peter 2:9 resulting in a loss of context for the 2 Peter 2:9-10 passage in your extensive analysis.

Now, please, see what you wrote in your closing paragraph and the failure of correction - or did I miss where you apologized?

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

Behold · Jun 15, 2023

Kermos said:
endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

Vessels of wrath are these.

John 3:36

Those are Christ rejectors..... never born again.

They are not chosen to be under God's Wrath, they are just in the process that is determined to occur as damnation to all who do not Believe the Gospel, while they are alive after the Cross was raised.

God's Foreknowledge of what is going to happen to a person who will die a Christ rejector, was known to God before God created Adam.
So, Its pre-determined, in God's foreknowledge, what will happen to a Christ Rejector, after they Die.

That Damnation is "fitted to them", because they refused to trust in Christ.
They are not chosen for it, they are scheduled for it as a end result of their FREE WILL Christ Rejection.

See, just as we BELIEVE and are Saved... we can always NOT BELIEVE and are Damned.

We choose that...
God accepts our choice.
Then we die and have it.

Kermos · Jun 15, 2023

amigo de christo said:
Yep , adam chose his wife over GOD . HE chose to heed her , NOT GOD .
JESUS reminds us , HE who loveth wife , son , daughter , mother etc , MORE THAN ME AINT WORTHY OF ME .
CHOOSE YE THIS DAY whom ye shall serve , but as for the lambs ITS GONNA BE GOD , HIS CHRIST .
Now on that note , LET ALL that has breath both praise n thank the glorious Lord .

As I mentioned, I am focused on the scriptural fact that man cannot free-will choose toward God, and in this instance of the Word of God recorded in Genesis 3:17, it is clearly evident that Adam did not choose, for there is no mention of "choose" nor it's conjugates; in fact, Adam's action was away from or against God.

Thus says the LORD God "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’" (Genesis 3:17).

The results of your thoughts expressed in your post are "Because you have chosen to listen to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’" (the word of amigo de christo).

Additionally, your thoughts that you express above opposes Apostolic testimony for Paul clearly proclaims no will of Adam participated in his eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil because the Apostle conveyed that Adam “not willingly” subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbidden for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul’s birth by his writing “until now” (Romans 8:20-22).

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

amigo de christo · Jun 15, 2023

Kermos said:
As I mentioned, I am focused on the scriptural fact that man cannot free-will choose toward God, and in this instance of the Word of God recorded in Genesis 3:17, it is clearly evident that Adam did not choose, for there is no mention of "choose" nor it's conjugates; in fact, Adam's action was away from or against God.

Thus says the LORD God "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’" (Genesis 3:17).

The results of your thoughts expressed in your post are "Because you have chosen to listen to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’" (the word of amigo de christo).

Additionally, your thoughts that you express above opposes Apostolic testimony for Paul clearly proclaims no will of Adam participated in his eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil because the Apostle conveyed that Adam “not willingly” subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbidden for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul’s birth by his writing “until now” (Romans 8:20-22).

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

This makes zero sense my friend . CHOICE was for sure involved .
GOD didnt create adam to EAT OF THE TREE , HE SAID DONT EAT OF IT .
IF adam had no choice , then why did GOD even bother to tell him DO NOT EAT OF IT .
Apparently GOD DIDNT WANT HIM TOO . BUT ADAM had free will my friend .
AND speaking of how to prove that one . JESUS was made in the likeness of us .
AND HE TOO said NOT MY WILL but YOURS BE DONE . Now have a blessed day in the LORD .
And let us RATHER REJOICE IN THE GLORIOUS TRUTH that THOUGH ADAM and all mankind has failed ,
JESUS CHRIST HAS PREVAILED . NOW raise those hands and BELEIVE YE IN HE WHOM GOD DID SEND .
Dont worry so much about things that are too high for us . SIMPLY , and RATHER LEARN JESUS
and all that HE did teach and all the doctrine the apostels also left us .
AND well FEAST ON IT ALL . feast on ALL THE HOLY SCRIPS .

Kermos · Jun 17, 2023

amigo de christo said:
This makes zero sense my friend . CHOICE was for sure involved .
GOD didnt create adam to EAT OF THE TREE , HE SAID DONT EAT OF IT .
IF adam had no choice , then why did GOD even bother to tell him DO NOT EAT OF IT .
Apparently GOD DIDNT WANT HIM TOO . BUT ADAM had free will my friend .
AND speaking of how to prove that one . JESUS was made in the likeness of us .
AND HE TOO said NOT MY WILL but YOURS BE DONE . Now have a blessed day in the LORD .
And let us RATHER REJOICE IN THE GLORIOUS TRUTH that THOUGH ADAM and all mankind has failed ,
JESUS CHRIST HAS PREVAILED . NOW raise those hands and BELEIVE YE IN HE WHOM GOD DID SEND .
Dont worry so much about things that are too high for us . SIMPLY , and RATHER LEARN JESUS
and all that HE did teach and all the doctrine the apostels also left us .
AND well FEAST ON IT ALL . feast on ALL THE HOLY SCRIPS .

In Truth (John 14:6), the sensibleness of the Word of God is praiseworthy and marvelous!

The original post contains some critical Scripture:In Truth (John 14:6), the sensibleness of the Word of God is praiseworthy and marvelous! The original post contains some critical information:

If anyone venture a reply to this thread, I encourage diligent care for it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

You (and @Jim B, @Marvelloustime and @Johann (all by way of your "Like" of amigo de christo's post)) explain that "choice" is a required cause of Adam eating of the tree forbidden as food, so, in order to get from the Word of God which is "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’" (the Word of God, Genesis 3:17), then you must add "choose" into Genesis 3:17 such that a different word manifests "Because you have chosen to listen to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’" (the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9)); therefore, according to the Word of God, the cause of Adam eating of the tree forbidden as food was Adam heeded/listened to Eve, and a person deviating from this is the person deviating from the Word of God.

The Word of God recorded in Genesis 3:17 makes perfect sense because of God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world. This means God's Plan was known to God prior to the creation of Adam.

Here is another part of the original post:

Adam as part of God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world (see also the meaning of the word "world" in the New Testament)
SINCE God saw creation was very good on the 6th Day (Genesis 1:31)
AND God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind is good (Ephesians 1:1-14, Ephesians 2:13)
AND no person can thwart God's Plan (Isaiah 14:27, Isaiah 46:11)
THEN a free will Adam could not have been roaming the Garden of Eden with the ability to choose to obey God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:17)
SINCE the only command carrying a punishment was the prohibition upon Adam against eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
THUS a free will Adam could have disrupted God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind
SO God could not conclude with certainty by declaring everything was good on the sixth day with a free will Adam in control roaming the Garden of Eden
THEREFORE it follows that Adam could not be endowed with the attribute of free will.

Your first 3 sentences also accuse that the Apostle Paul does not make sense in Romans 8:20-22, so let us visit this in detail.

Man's "Will" In Scripture Related To The Creation Account

Despite the Creation account in Genesis 1-3 being silent about man's "will", there exists Apostolic teaching on the matter of man's "will" with regard to the creation account.

Adam did not exercise willpower to disobey God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:16-17) for Paul wrote "the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly" (Romans 8:20, NASB); therefore, Adam did not make a choice, not a willing choice, to eat.

A "choice" by Adam is explicitly excluded by using scripture with scripture referencing, in fact, "the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly" (Romans 8:20, KJV), so Adam acted not willingly but rather acted subject to vanity in his eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

"Not willingly" indicates "not choice".

Some people may claim that Paul was referring to a timeframe exclusively after what they call "the fall" (after Adam ate of the tree [Genesis 3:6]), but the continuity of the passage of Romans 8:20-22 must be taken as a whole.

Paul left no room for disputing to the timeframe for which "not willingly" applies, for Paul also wrote "we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now" (Romans 8:22), and the phrase "until now" is the timeframe's most recent limiting factor which means that all times prior to "now" are included, so "the whole creation" includes the moment after God breathed into Adam's nostrils the breath of life (Genesis 2:7) until Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6); therefore, we can be certain that Paul includes the timeframe that Adam ate of the tree in the travailing/groaning because Paul wrote of all of this in the same passage, i.e. Romans 8:20-22.

Presenting an event driven review of Paul's writing "the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now" (Romans 8:20-22) and the creation account and more recorded in Genesis:

See "until now" (Romans 8:22) indicates all time prior to the Apostle Paul for he wrote "the whole creation" (Romans 8:22), as in "the whole creation" "until now".
See the serpent was in the garden tempting Eve (Genesis 3:1-5) before Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6).
See "subjected to futility" (Romans 8:20) as the serpent's futility of lying to Eve with "You surely will not die" (Genesis 3:4) - before Adam or Eve ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6), yet Adam and Eve died (Genesis 5:5, Genesis 7:21 none of mankind, besides the 8 [Genesis 7:7 and 1 Peter 3:20], survived the flood, so Eve had to be dead).
See "not willingly" (Romans 8:20) applies to Adam eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6) for the Word of God specifically attributed the cause of Adam eating of the tree as "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'" (Genesis 3:17), so here God reveals for Adam the cause (listen to wife) and the effect (eat of tree); therefore, eating of the tree was "not willingly" (Romans 8:20).

Paul includes the "not willingly" (Romans 8:20-22) to apply to the time that Adam ate of the tree (Genesis 3:6).

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

Kermos · Jun 18, 2023

amigo de christo said:
This makes zero sense my friend . CHOICE was for sure involved .
GOD didnt create adam to EAT OF THE TREE , HE SAID DONT EAT OF IT .
IF adam had no choice , then why did GOD even bother to tell him DO NOT EAT OF IT .
Apparently GOD DIDNT WANT HIM TOO . BUT ADAM had free will my friend .
AND speaking of how to prove that one . JESUS was made in the likeness of us .
AND HE TOO said NOT MY WILL but YOURS BE DONE . Now have a blessed day in the LORD .
And let us RATHER REJOICE IN THE GLORIOUS TRUTH that THOUGH ADAM and all mankind has failed ,
JESUS CHRIST HAS PREVAILED . NOW raise those hands and BELEIVE YE IN HE WHOM GOD DID SEND .
Dont worry so much about things that are too high for us . SIMPLY , and RATHER LEARN JESUS
and all that HE did teach and all the doctrine the apostels also left us .
AND well FEAST ON IT ALL . feast on ALL THE HOLY SCRIPS .

I would love to make you all aware, including @Jim B, @Marvelloustime and @Johann (all by way of your "Like" of amigo de christo's post), no one has the ability to choose Jesus because the Word of God says:

"you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people, not man choosing God, but truly God choosing man.
"I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
"What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the glorious blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

I praise the Lord God Almighty Jesus Christ who exclusively saves us children of God from the wrath of God. Salvation is by God's grace for God's glory!

As the original post shows richly in scripture, there is no such thing as free-will, but natural man possessing a self-will exists leading to damnation (2 Peter 2:9-10).

Jim B · Jun 18, 2023

Kermos said:
In Truth (John 14:6), the sensibleness of the Word of God is praiseworthy and marvelous!

The original post contains some critical Scripture:In Truth (John 14:6), the sensibleness of the Word of God is praiseworthy and marvelous! The original post contains some critical information:

If anyone venture a reply to this thread, I encourage diligent care for it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

You (and @Jim B, @Marvelloustime and @Johann (all by way of your "Like" of amigo de christo's post)) explain that "choice" is a required cause of Adam eating of the tree forbidden as food, so, in order to get from the Word of God which is "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’" (the Word of God, Genesis 3:17), then you must add "choose" into Genesis 3:17 such that a different word manifests "Because you have chosen to listen to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’" (the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9)); therefore, according to the Word of God, the cause of Adam eating of the tree forbidden as food was Adam heeded/listened to Eve, and a person deviating from this is the person deviating from the Word of God.

The Word of God recorded in Genesis 3:17 makes perfect sense because of God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world. This means God's Plan was known to God prior to the creation of Adam.

Here is another part of the original post:

Adam as part of God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world (see also the meaning of the word "world" in the New Testament)
SINCE God saw creation was very good on the 6th Day (Genesis 1:31)
AND God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind is good (Ephesians 1:1-14, Ephesians 2:13)
AND no person can thwart God's Plan (Isaiah 14:27, Isaiah 46:11)
THEN a free will Adam could not have been roaming the Garden of Eden with the ability to choose to obey God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:17)
SINCE the only command carrying a punishment was the prohibition upon Adam against eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
THUS a free will Adam could have disrupted God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind
SO God could not conclude with certainty by declaring everything was good on the sixth day with a free will Adam in control roaming the Garden of Eden
THEREFORE it follows that Adam could not be endowed with the attribute of free will.

Your first 3 sentences also accuse that the Apostle Paul does not make sense in Romans 8:20-22, so let us visit this in detail.

Man's "Will" In Scripture Related To The Creation Account
Despite the Creation account in Genesis 1-3 being silent about man's "will", there exists Apostolic teaching on the matter of man's "will" with regard to the creation account.

Adam did not exercise willpower to disobey God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:16-17) for Paul wrote "the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly" (Romans 8:20, NASB); therefore, Adam did not make a choice, not a willing choice, to eat.

A "choice" by Adam is explicitly excluded by using scripture with scripture referencing, in fact, "the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly" (Romans 8:20, KJV), so Adam acted not willingly but rather acted subject to vanity in his eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

"Not willingly" indicates "not choice".

Some people may claim that Paul was referring to a timeframe exclusively after what they call "the fall" (after Adam ate of the tree [Genesis 3:6]), but the continuity of the passage of Romans 8:20-22 must be taken as a whole.

Paul left no room for disputing to the timeframe for which "not willingly" applies, for Paul also wrote "we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now" (Romans 8:22), and the phrase "until now" is the timeframe's most recent limiting factor which means that all times prior to "now" are included, so "the whole creation" includes the moment after God breathed into Adam's nostrils the breath of life (Genesis 2:7) until Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6); therefore, we can be certain that Paul includes the timeframe that Adam ate of the tree in the travailing/groaning because Paul wrote of all of this in the same passage, i.e. Romans 8:20-22.

Presenting an event driven review of Paul's writing "the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now" (Romans 8:20-22) and the creation account and more recorded in Genesis:

See "until now" (Romans 8:22) indicates all time prior to the Apostle Paul for he wrote "the whole creation" (Romans 8:22), as in "the whole creation" "until now".

See the serpent was in the garden tempting Eve (Genesis 3:1-5) before Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6).

See "subjected to futility" (Romans 8:20) as the serpent's futility of lying to Eve with "You surely will not die" (Genesis 3:4) - before Adam or Eve ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6), yet Adam and Eve died (Genesis 5:5, Genesis 7:21 none of mankind, besides the 8 [Genesis 7:7 and 1 Peter 3:20], survived the flood, so Eve had to be dead).

See "not willingly" (Romans 8:20) applies to Adam eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6) for the Word of God specifically attributed the cause of Adam eating of the tree as "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'" (Genesis 3:17), so here God reveals for Adam the cause (listen to wife) and the effect (eat of tree); therefore, eating of the tree was "not willingly" (Romans 8:20).

Paul includes the "not willingly" (Romans 8:20-22) to apply to the time that Adam ate of the tree (Genesis 3:6).

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

I didn't read your lengthy post, but if I agreed with @amigo it was by mistake. I clearly oppose the judgmental, self-glorifying garbage that he writes,

amigo de christo · Jun 18, 2023

Kermos said:
I would love to make you all aware, including @Jim B, @Marvelloustime and @Johann (all by way of your "Like" of amigo de christo's post), no one has the ability to choose Jesus because the Word of God says:

"you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people, not man choosing God, but truly God choosing man.

"I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.

"What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the glorious blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

I praise the Lord God Almighty Jesus Christ who exclusively saves us children of God from the wrath of God. Salvation is by God's grace for God's glory!

As the original post shows richly in scripture, there is no such thing as free-will, but natural man possessing a self-will exists leading to damnation (2 Peter 2:9-10).

Take good heed and pay close attention . I have always told folks IT was GOD who drew me in .
The problem is some folks just dont like spirit filled reminders . And that we must take heed
EVERY apostel , who we all know were DRAWN TO GOD
sure seemed to also warn and remind the church to HEED the SPIRIT and not the flesh .
TO ABSTAIN from all appearance of evil , they corrected all sin and error .

amigo de christo · Jun 18, 2023

Jim B said:
I didn't read your lengthy post, but if I agreed with @amigo it was by mistake. I clearly oppose the judgmental, self-glorifying garbage that he writes,

WELL THEN , TRY READING IT . AND YOU SEE what you see in what he did write .
Dont let your hatred of me cause you to unite with someone . YOU read what they write jim .
Read it for yourself .

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