Faith without works is dead

Watchwithme said:

What gave you this idea?

The Nicolataitions are false clergy who deceive the layman.

Click to expand...

Stan said:

What idea are you now talking about?

I didn't ask WHAT they were, I asked WHO they were?

Click to expand...

Rach said:

.Stan joined about the same time you did and instead of being welcomed properly, got slapped a few times...he was a little touchy...understandably!

Click to expand...

Stan said:

What idea are you now talking about?

I didn't ask WHAT they were, I asked WHO they were?

Click to expand...

Rach said:

I hope you guys don't mind me jumping in here...I want to try and avoid the frustration certain confusion here may cause....
I believe Stan perhaps voiced his concern about RC bashing protestants, because the couple of posts of his above this one he had indeed been leapt on by a few RC's...my guess is he was a bit braced for more! So "the idea" that you're both struggling to understand right now is Stans question regarding that...and watchwithme's confusion to it...why would Stan automatically assume watchwithme was Catholic??
So...Stan...I don't think watchwithme is Catholic...there will be no Protestant bashing from him! Watchwithme...Stan joined about the same time you did and instead of being welcomed properly, got slapped a few times...he was a little touchy...understandably!
Hope that's helped and not made it more confusing!!

As far as the Nicolaitans...aren't they spoken of in the letters to the churches in Revelations?

Yet this you have: you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
(Revelation 2:6 ESV)

But I have a few things against you: you have some there who hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, so that they might eat food sacrificed to idols and practice sexual immorality. So also you have some who hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans.
(Revelation 2:14-15 ESV)

Still doesn't give a huge amount of info into who they were, though. Do we suppose that their teaching is likened to Balaam? Or perhaps we could understand it as works without faith. We know this was one of the problems in the Church (just as faith without fruit is dead was a problem also)...in in Rev 2:6 above is says 'works' of the Nicolaitans. What do you guys think?

Click to expand...

Episkopos said:

Nicolaitans is made up of 2 Greek words....Nico...meaning victory...and the word we use for laity....people. What this signifies is a class of people that are over the laity. It is not hard to surmise from there that the modern "clergy" fits the bill.

Click to expand...

Episkopos said:

Nicolaitans is made up of 2 Greek words....Nico...meaning victory...and the word we use for laity....people. What this signifies is a class of people that are over the laity. It is not hard to surmise from there that the modern "clergy" fits the bill.

Click to expand...

Rach said:

But isn't "modern clergy" a bit broad?

Click to expand...

Rach said:

Ah, I have to think you are completely wrong here Mr R. The Pharisees didn't believe Jesus was the Christ. They were enraged that this man claimed to be God...that's the ultimate reason they had him put to death (or the excuse they used for it). Most certainly they did not like what Jesus was preaching, but I doubt they would have also accused him of working his miracles via the power of Satan if they truly thought Jesus was Messiah. (Matt 10:25; 12:24)

We see in Matt 12:14 that the Pharisees clearly knew that Jesus was claiming to be the Messiah, but they did not believe it themselves...they judged such a claim to be the worst kind of heresy.
In fact in Matt 16:1, 19:3, 22:15; Luke 11:53-54 we see nothing to suggest that the Pharisees believe Jesus to try be the Messiah. In John 9:16 it says; "Some of the Pharisees said, 'This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath'. But others said, 'How can a man who is a sinner do such signs?'. And there was great division between them." They were divided about who Jesus was, but it did not occur to them that he truly was who he claimed to be.

We also see the 'Pharisaical' view in Paul's zealousness. He despised Christ, believing him to be a blasphemer of the worst sort. The moment Jesus revealed himself to Paul as truly God, the conversion was instant and complete.



A true orthodox Jew will not fall for dismissing the law? A Jew of today? Um...what about the Jews who come to Jesus and do just that? There are a fair number of them out there, you know, who are of Jewish decent who live just as I or other Christians do...in Christ's grace alone.

As far as your next sentence, I'm not sure I comprehend it...its very hard to read...punctuation is usually used for a reason...just fyi. I'm not aware that I claimed that Paul said anything against Jesus in his letters. And just because the law is fulfilled doesn't mean it was tossed away. And just because something is not tossed away, doesn't mean it is still used. If you have an loan with the bank, you make repayments until it is completed. Once it is completed, it doesn't void what you brought or did with that loan, but you most certainly aren't still making payments!

And yes, obviously Paul is talking to the audiences of the time, but every single thing he says to them has implications and applications for us now. Jew or Gentile...as we are all one in Christ...

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave or free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal 3:28

Click to expand...

Watchwithme said:

Yes it is. However given that we have the word of God and the Holy Spirit we can test each individual case. I was pastored by an independent Baptist minister from America for about five years. He was sound as a pound. He handed over the ministry to his son, who was a different kettle of fish all together. eg changing bible versions for one.

Click to expand...

Stan said:

Non-responsive and rude to boot. Is this how RCs on this Forum always debate? I ask for a verse and you guys tell me to read my Bible? I give you verses and instead of properly rebutting you say "our church doesn't accept that".
I can't accept that you respect anyone, BUT RCs, from what I've read from you so far on this thread.
I'm not interested in RC rhetoric, I'm interested in Biblical truth. FYI, I came from a VERY typical RC parish. One that had nuns and brothers and priests, ran a farm and a school, all of which they did very well. They did seem to me, in hindsight now, to be more interested in walking the walk, instead of talking it.




Well they have and still do. Orthodox Jews AND RC's are getting saved everyday, whether you acknowledge it or not.
Saul killed Christians for Jewish orthodox beliefs and spoke against the church all the time. Acts 9:1; Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples.
Matthew 5:18; For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
Yes Jesus did put a new perspective on the laws. Notice He says throughout chapter 5 here that; “You have heard that it was said"
Notice he never says, IT IS WRITTEN. Jesus told them the fallacies and then told them the truth. It is clear that the so-called Laws that the Pharisees and Teachers of the Law at that time were propagating, were in fact NOT from God, and Jesus was clarifying what the false teachings were and what the truth was. He was indeed rejecting the hearsay that was so prevalent to Jews in that day. All because they listened to their church leaders and NOT to what God said in His Word and by His prophets.
Just to be clear, Paul was WRITING to the Galatians, NOT talking to an audience, which you would know if you read that scripture.
How easy it is, it seems, for some people to still have the WRONG perspective on God's laws.

Click to expand...

Stan said:

OK, well I guess that clears one thing up. Yes I did come from a lukewarm background. It wasn't until I started going to a good old fashioned Pentecostal Church that I found out WHO Jesus actually was and how important He was to my life. It is also where I received grounding in God's Word and how to live life in the Holy Spirit.
Your initial comment about Paul pointed to ONE event, "AT THE TIME". Again it would help if you clarified and tried commenting productively instead of impudently. BTW are you from Newfoundland? 'old son', 'boy' and all...kind of sound like it. Not an accusation though, just a question.
All kinds of religious people get saved, not just RC's. Going to a church service on a regular basis doesn't make you a Christian, any more than living in a garage makes you a car.
I must admit I am ignorant when it comes to your last comment here though. ???

Click to expand...

Rach said:

I hope you guys don't mind me jumping in here...I want to try and avoid the frustration certain confusion here may cause....
I believe Stan perhaps voiced his concern about RC bashing protestants, because the couple of posts of his above this one he had indeed been leapt on by a few RC's...my guess is he was a bit braced for more! So "the idea" that you're both struggling to understand right now is Stans question regarding that...and watchwithme's confusion to it...why would Stan automatically assume watchwithme was Catholic??
So...Stan...I don't think watchwithme is Catholic...there will be no Protestant bashing from him! Watchwithme...Stan joined about the same time you did and instead of being welcomed properly, got slapped a few times...he was a little touchy...understandably!
Hope that's helped and not made it more confusing!!

As far as the Nicolaitans...aren't they spoken of in the letters to the churches in Revelations?

Yet this you have: you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
(Revelation 2:6 ESV)

But I have a few things against you: you have some there who hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, so that they might eat food sacrificed to idols and practice sexual immorality. So also you have some who hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans.
(Revelation 2:14-15 ESV)

Still doesn't give a huge amount of info into who they were, though. Do we suppose that their teaching is likened to Balaam? Or perhaps we could understand it as works without faith. We know this was one of the problems in the Church (just as faith without fruit is dead was a problem also)...in in Rev 2:6 above is says 'works' of the Nicolaitans. What do you guys think?

Click to expand...

Stan said:

I am just very straight forward. I see no reason to beat around the bush. Drives my kids crazy. -_-

Click to expand...

any more than living in a garage makes you a car.

Click to expand...

dragonfly said:

Hi Stan,

Just catching up on this thread and still have a bit of reading to do, but



appealed to my sense of humour.


Watchwithme,

This was totally uncalled for - 'A good old fashioned pentegram church' - and is anything but funny for some people.

Click to expand...

It is my fervent biblical opinion that the charismatic chaos Pentecostal movement is highly satanic. I'm not joking at all.

Click to expand...

dragonfly said:

Hi Watchwithme,



Is that an observation locally, or, have you seen it elsewhere in the world? To mention Satan carries specific meaning, rather than simply drawing attention to the spiritual dangers which disorderly and carnal men lay themselves open to, through sin and the flesh.

Click to expand...

Watchwithme said:

It is my fervent biblical opinion that the charismatic chaos Pentecostal movement is highly satanic. I'm not joking at all.

Click to expand...

Rach said:

Can I ask what you think about Churches that define themselves as "Charismatics with seat belts on?"

Click to expand...

Watchwithme said:

I haven't heard that term before, but its probably best to stay out of cars with charismatics all together. They are likely to literally let Jesus take the wheel. A seat belt wont help.

"Astallashundai Mistubishihyundaiuntieabowtie" Try saying that ten times fast if your having trouble speaking in tongues.

In my experience, which I grant is limited, all or most charismatics/pentecostal churches preach vehemently and openly i.e. they actively teach against the eternal security of the believer. Most if not all of the members remain out of fear of losing their salvation and or fall away all together. Some even go mad and or commit suicide. Also in my experience the ones who believe they have "the gift of prophesy" appear to be the most mentally unhinged.

Click to expand...