Bloodlines of the Nephilim - A Biblical Study

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Retrobyter

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Shalom, NJBeliever.

Please understand that the word "nfaliym" is NOT a line of beings, whether human or supernatural. Here's the word in Strong's Greek Dictionary:

OT:5303 nephiyl (nef-eel'); or nephil (nef-eel'); from OT:5307; properly, a feller, i.e. a bully or tyrant:
KJV - giant.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

See, the word "feller" was an older English word that was common when the dictionary was written. Today, we would say "woodcutter" or "lumberjack." Just as our legend of Paul Bunyan probably grew out of the truth of how lumberjacks were often larger and stronger in the late 1700s and early 1800s of our nation's history, so this word was about guys who were huge hulks in their age because of this occupation. If you will allow the profiling, they were the "biker types" before the flood. (No offense intended to bikers.) Because they were big and strong, they lorded it over others and were the first bullies and tyrants of that age. That's what the word means. They are not a "race" separate from human beings!

Furthermore, I challenge anyone to find a place in Scripture where "sons of God" EVER refers to "angels!" Even in `Iyov's book (Job), it makes better sense to recognize "sons of God" as referring to human beings than to "angels." Here are some reasons why: First, the word usually translated "angel" and which means "messenger" IS used in the book of Job: The Hebrew word is "mal'aakh" and is used in Job 1:14 for one of Iyov's men:

Job 1:14-15
14 And there came a messenger unto Job, and said, The oxen were plowing, and the asses feeding beside them:
15 And the Sabeans fell upon them, and took them away; yea, they have slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
KJV


It is also used in Job 4:18:

Job 4:17-19
17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
18 Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly:
19 How much less in them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation is in the dust, which are crushed before the moth?
KJV


So, why wouldn't he just use this word instead of "sons of God" if he meant "angels?"

Second, look at where these "sons of God" are going:

Job 1:6
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
KJV


Job 2:1
2 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
KJV


They came "to present themselves before the LORD." This is the Hebrew phrase, "lhityatseev `al YHWH." The same phrase is found in Deuteronomy 31:14 twice and in 1 Samuel 10:18:

Deuteronomy 31:14
14 And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thy days approach that thou must die: call Joshua, and present yourselves in the tabernacle of the congregation, that I may give him a charge. And Moses and Joshua went, and presented themselves in the tabernacle of the congregation.
KJV


1 Samuel 10:18
19 And ye have this day rejected your God, who himself saved you out of all your adversities and your tribulations; and ye have said unto him, Nay, but set a king over us. Now therefore present yourselves before the Lord by your tribes, and by your thousands.
KJV


Thus, there is no reason to see these "sons of God" as appearing before God "IN HEAVEN!" It could just as easily refer to human beings presenting themselves before God at the Temple! Furthermore, "sons of God" in the NT refers to human beings; so, why does the OT have to refer to angels?

In fact, we can understand why human beings must present themselves before God, but why would "angels" have to appear before God?

There is one more place "sons of God" is found in Job:

Job 38:3-11
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
KJV


However, this passage, too, can be referring to human beings. This is NOT a verse that refers to Creation; it refers to the RE-Creation after the Flood when Noach was in the ark. There are several clues that prove this: First, verse 8 talks about shutting up the sea with doors, "when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb." Second, verse 9 talks about clouds and thick darkness (storm clouds), but it hadn't rained before the Flood! Third, verses 10 and 11 talk about the continental shelves and the rocks and cliffs by the sea as "bars and doors" that restrict the damaging effects of the waves of the sea. These weren't in existence before the Flood. Indeed, if they were, then HOW DID THE FLOOD HAPPEN? They should have stopped the waves! No, this passage is not talking about Creation.

Therefore, even here, these "sons of God" could still be referring to either Noach and his family or those who had lived before the Flood or both! It does not have to refer to "angels" which may be who are referred to as "the morning stars" in Job 38:7.

I don't believe that anyone should find Genesis 6:1-4 as referring to angels taking the daughters of men as their wives. Instead, this term "sons of God," in my opinion, is a term of prejudice that the "sons of God" applied to themselves, as though they were better than other men! I believe that this is when wives were first thought of as chattel! It was a form of slavery and belittling women!

Oh, and by the way, Numbers 13:33 is the only other verse in the Tanakh (the OT) that uses the word "nfaliym." Given that only eight souls survived the Flood, the "nfaliym" before the Flood cannot be related to those in Numbers 13:33:

Numbers 13:25-33
25 And they returned from searching of the land after forty days.
26 And they went and came to Moses, and to Aaron, and to all the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the wilderness of Paran, to Kadesh; and brought back word unto them, and unto all the congregation, and shewed them the fruit of the land.
27 And they told him, and said, We came unto the land whither thou sentest us, and surely it floweth with milk and honey; and this is the fruit of it.
28 Nevertheless the people be strong that dwell in the land, and the cities are walled, and very great: and moreover we saw the children of Anak there.
29 The Amalekites dwell in the land of the south: and the Hittites, and the Jebusites, and the Amorites, dwell in the mountains: and the Canaanites dwell by the sea, and by the coast of Jordan.
30 And Caleb stilled the people before Moses, and said, Let us go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it.
31 But the men that went up with him said, We be not able to go up against the people; for they are stronger than we.
32 And they brought up an evil report of the land which they had searched unto the children of Israel, saying, The land, through which we have gone to search it, is a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that we saw in it are men of a great stature.
33 And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.
KJV


However, again, this was their OCCUPATION! They were lumberjacks! But these "sons of Anak," from whom came Golyat (Goliath) and his four brothers, were just large men who could have been bullies because of their size!
 

Trekson

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Hi Retro, Your words: Furthermore, I challenge anyone to find a place in Scripture where "sons of God" EVER refers to "angels!" In every verse you listed!

you say, "It could just as easily refer to human beings presenting themselves before God at the Temple!"

and it could just as easily be "fallen" angels. According to some experts, the timing of Job is pre-Moses, probably because of His life span (200 yrs.) it puts him in the time of the patriarchs, thus no temple.

Goliath was 9 ft. 9 inches which makes him a little bigger than your average lumberjack. I don't see why you have a hard time believing that "fallen" angels (fell to earth) mated with the "daughters of men" differentiating them from "sons of God", if they were totally human, why not "sons of men". Thus giving birth to many of our legends like centaurs, minotaurs, giants, etc.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Trekson.

I hope you're aware of the traditional view on the Genesis 6:1-4 passage, namely that the term meant that they were men of "noble birth," sheiks.

Genesis 6:1-2
Sons of Elohim and daughters of men: -- Opinions have differed greatly as to the meaning of the name "Sons of God," or rather of "Elohim." The rabbis, as was natural, from their love of the marvellous, took for granted that the fallen angels are meant; since "nephilim" is derived from the verb "to fall." Hence Apocryphal Jewish literature assumes this constantly, while not a few writers of the most opposite schools still support this explanation, which, nevertheless, seems fanciful and ungrounded. The giants are not said to have been "the sons of Elohim," and their name may as fitly be explained as referring to their "falling upon" their fellow men as by any mysterious connection with the rebel angels. Nor does the name "sons" of "Elohim" necessarily refer to angels at all; for the word "Elohim" is used elsewhere in Scripture of men. Thus, in Ps 82:1, we read that God "judges in the midst of the Elohim," who are shown in the next verse to be those who "judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked." The name is evidently given them from their office, in which they represented, in Israel, the supreme judge of the nation -- Jehovah. Jewish interpreters generally adopt this meaning of the passage, believing that the "great" or "mighty" sons of Cain are contrasted with the lowlier daughters of Seth. It is, moreover, very doubtful if the word be ever applied in the Old Testament to angels. On the other hand, it is continually used of heathen idols, and hence it may well point in this particular case to intermarriages between the adherents of idolatry and the daughters of the race of Seth, and a consequent spread of heathenism, far and near, with its attendant violence and moral debasement. If, however, by "the sons of Elohim" we understand the worshippers of Jehovah, the "daughters of men" would mean those of the race of Cain. This interpretation, indeed, is now very generally adopted, and seems the most natural. We should, then, read "the sons of the godly race" took wives of "the daughters of men." The children of such marriages sadly increased the prevailing corruption. They became "gibborim," or fierce and cruel chiefs, filling the world with blood and tumult. It was to prevent the final triumph of evil, Scripture tells us, that the deluge was sent from God.
(C. Geikie, D. D.)
(from The Biblical Illustrator Copyright © 2002, 2003, 2006 Ages Software, Inc. and Biblesoft, Inc.)

Genesis 6:2; Genesis 6:3; Genesis 6:4
Genesis 6:2
That the a sons of God saw the daughters b of men that they [were] c fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
(a) The children of the godly who began to degenerate.
(B) Those that had wicked parents, as if from Cain.
(c) Having more respect for their beauty and worldly considerations than for their manners and godliness.

Genesis 6:3
And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always d strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an e hundred and twenty years.
(d) Because man could not by won by God's leniency and patience by which he tried to win him, he would no longer withhold his vengeance.
(e) Which time span God gave man to repent before he would destroy the earth, 1 Peter 3:20.

Genesis 6:4
There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of f renown.
(f) Who usurped authority over others, and degenerated from that simplicity, in which their father's lived.
(from Geneva Notes, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2003, 2005, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)


Genesis 6:1; Genesis 6:2; Genesis 6:3; Genesis 6:4
Genesis 6:1
And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
When men began to multiply. This is a general statement relative to the increase of the human family, without any intimation of the precise period to which it refers. Some writers have maintained that in the times immediately preceding the flood, the world was as densely populated as it is in the present day. But all calculations of the numbers of mankind founded on modern statistics, and applied to estimate the probable amount of the antediluvian population, are utterly fallacious. So far from its having been so great as has been surmised, the awfully corrupt and disordered state of society which widely prevailed must have been unfavourable to population, or have rapidly diminished it; and, accordingly, there are Scriptural data to warrant the belief that it was comparatively small. Noah, in the 600 th year of his life, reckoned his whole family as consisting of eight persons; so that, if this was an average number from one man, the race could not have multiplied very fast, and we may see why the merciful Creator determined that it should not, in order that the judgment inflicted by the deluge should not be so severe as it would have been if the whole earth had been inhabited.
Further, the Scriptures represent the existing race of mankind as having been all within the reach of Noah's warning voice and actions (cf. Heb 11:7, with 1 Peter 3:19-20; 2 Peter 2:5); and the most rational supposition is, that the area occupied by mankind was bounded by a circumference not very distant from the central abode of the first parent.
And daughters were born unto them. They are particularly mentioned because the seductive influence of their beauty and manners was one principal cause of the antediluvian apostasy and debasement.

Genesis 6:2
That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
The sons of God saw the daughters of men. This is a difficult passage, and various modes of interpreting it have been proposed:
(1) An opinion extensively adopted is, that the "sons of God" denote angels, "daughters of men," women generally; and that the transaction referred to was, that the angels who had been appointed to guard Eden and perambulate the world, becoming enamoured with women, mingled familiarly in their society, and cohabited with them. This view is of great antiquity, having been entertained, according to Josephus, in the later ages of the Jewish Church, and eagerly adopted by Justin, Athenagoras, Clemens Alexandrinus, Tertullian, and Lactantius, whose semi-pagan imaginations were dazzled by the rhapsodical legends of the Apocryphal book of Enoch. Being strenuously opposed at a subsequent period by Chrysostom, Augustine, and others, it was long exploded in the Christian Church as a wild and revolting fiction, until it was revived in modern times, and supported on various grounds by Rosenmuller, Gesenius, Kurtz, Tuch, Knobel, and Delitzsch, in Germany; and by Govett ('Isaiah Unfulfilled'), Maitland ('False Worship'), and others (Birks' 'Difficulties') in England, not to speak of Milton, Byron, and Moore, all of whom enlisted it in the service of poetry.
The alleged application of the name "sons of God" to angels in the poetical book of Job (Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7; and perhaps Dan 3:25), which is thought to have been written by Moses; the Septuagint version [which has hoi, angeloi tou Theou, the anqels of God]; the supposed testimonies of Peter (1 Peter 3:19-20; 2 Peter 2:4) and Jude (Jude 6-7) in favour of this view, referring, as some imagine, to a class of fallen angels who, unlike Satan and his followers, are, because the enormity of their crimes, reserved in chains until the judgment-day; and the assumption that an extraordinary outrage must have been perpetrated before a judgment so awful as the flood would have been inflicted, are the grounds on which this opinion is rested by its supporters. But Keil, Faber, and others, have successfully shown that angels are not designated "the sons of God" in any part of the Pentateuch; that there is no reference to angels in this passage; still less in Peter, where, by 'the disobedient spirits in prison,' and the angels that kept not their first habitation, as also in Jude, where by the allusion to Sodom and Gomorrah, Balaam and Korah (Jude 7-11), it is proved that the apostles had in view only erring, sinful men.
Moveover, not to dwell on the impossibility (Matt 22:30; Mark 12:25; Luke 20:36) of angels having such a carnal intercourse as is alluded to, and on the likelihood that Divine Providence would have immediately interposed rather than have deferred the judicial punishment of so enormous a violation of natural order for 120 years, the entire context of this passage refers to men as having corrupted their ways, and being, by the withdrawal of God's Spirit, doomed to punishment. For these and other reasons, this opinion as to the connection of angels with women is generally opposed by orthodox divines as contrary to all sound notions both of philosophy and religion.
(2) Another interpretation of the passage, which has been suggested in our own day, proceeds on the hypothesis that there were other varieties of mankind in existence beside the descendants of Adam; and, in accordance with this view, the following translation is proposed:-`And it came to pass, when the Adamites (literally, the Adam) began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,' 'the sons of °Elohiym'-the sons of the gods-the other races, saw the daughters of the Adamites that they were goodly, and they took them wives of all which they chose ('Genesis of the Earth and of Man'). That °Aadaam, with the Hebrew article, is used as the name of an individual, see the note at Gen 5:1-2. The term is, indeed, frequently used generically for mankind, but never to denote a distinct race of human beings; and accordingly it is not found in the plural, which it would have been if applied to a race. It might naturally have been expected, that in some ancient version this interpretation, if right, would have been found, but not one has been discovered to give the smallest countenance to such a view; and therefore, until some stronger evidence shall be adduced than what the world has yet seen, to prove that mankind are not all descended from one pair, the theory respecting the existence of a race called the Adamites, as separate from other human creatures, must be rejected.
(3) The most correct, and now the most prevalent, view of this passage-the view supported by Chrysostom and Augustine in ancient, and by Luther, Calvin, Hengstenberg, Keil, Faber, etc., in modern times-is that by "the sons of God," are meant the Sethites principally, but including also those other descendants of Adam who professed the same religious views and feelings:
'That sober race of men, whose lives
Religious titled them the sons of God.'

And by "the daughters of men," women of Cainite descent, including such as might have joined their degenerate society from other branches of the Adamic family. Pious people, professors of the true religion, who truly reflected the divine image, were "the sons of God (°Elohiym)," and were called by that name long before the theocracy had brought the Israelites into the special relationship of the Lord's (Yahweh's) children (Ex 4:22-23; Deut 14:1; 32:5; Ps 73:15; 82:6; Isa 63:16; Hos 1:10), or the idea attached to the name had received its full development in the Christian Church (John 1:12; Rom 8:14,19; 1 John 3:1-2).
Moveover, that the Hebrew word °Aadaam, with or without the article, is often used to denote a particular class, in contradistinction to men in general-men of worldly, irreligious character-will appear from the following passages (Judg 16:7; 18:28; Ps 73:5; 1 Cor 3:4). The meaning of the clause under notice, then, is that the professedly religions class of the antediluvians, consisting principally of Sethites, with some others-a class who, by their principles and practice, had long kept themselves separate from the world-began gradually to relax their strictness, and to abandon their isolated position, by cultivating acquaintance, and then forming alliances, with "the daughters of men" in general, the Cainite and other women of similar character. This is what is referred to by Jude, when he says (Jude 6) that they kept not [teen heautoon archeen] their primitive dignity as sons of God, and the original excellence in which they were created, but left [to idion oiketeerion] their own proper situation (Bloomfield). The interpretation of the phrase, "sons of God" now given connects the present passage with Gen 4:26, from which it is divided by the insertion of Gen 5, which seems a distinct document; and the two verses thus viewed throw light upon each other, as well as upon the course of the following narrative.
They took wives of all which they chose. The Hebrew verb, laaqach, to take, with °ishaah (Gen 19:15; 1 Sam 25:43), and sometimes without it (Gen 34:9,16; Deut 20:7; 1 Chron 2:21), signifies to take in marriage. From this usual import of the term, therefore, the marriages which the Sethites formed with the Cainite women were legitimate connections; and as female beauty has always exercised a powerful influence over the minds of men in the choice of their wives, there was no impropriety in allowing that element of attraction to have weight in forming the matrimonial relation then, any more than now. But the Sethites seem, in their admiration of external charms, to have paid no regard to the will of God respecting religious principle and character; and as intermarriages with unbelievers and profane women have in all ages been productive of numerous evils (Gen 27:46; 28:1; Ex 34:16; 2 Cor 6:14), it must be concluded that the sacred historian had such consequences in view when he took such a prominent notice of the manners which formed a characteristic feature of the latest antediluvian age.
Mixed marriages between parties of opposite principles and practice must necessarily be sources of extensive corruption. The women, irreligious themselves, would, as wives and mothers, exert an influence fatal to the existence of religion in their household, and consequently the later antediluvians sank to the lowest depravity. But the phrase "took them wives of all which they chose evidently implies something very different from the simple exercise of a free choice; and it seems a conclusion perfectly warranted by the terms of this passage, that the practice of polygamy had widely spread. until it became the chief cause of that universal corruption and violence which ensued. In connection with this, it may be added that the Hebrew °Elohiym sometimes signifies 'the great, the mighty' (Ps 29:1; 82:1,6; John 10:34), and the Hebrew °aadaam, as distinguished from °iysh, denotes the poor, humble, and common people (Ps 49:1-2; Isa 2:8-9); so that we may consider the passage still further as implying that the princes, or sons of the chief men, broke through the restraints of social and domestic order, by taking, in profligate and violent licentiousness, numbers of beautiful women from among the humbler classes to fill their harems.

Genesis 6:3
And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
And the Lord said. There is nothing said either of the time when or the parties to whom this communication was made. But it is supposed that the words which follow are a traditional fragment of Enoch's prophecies (Jude 14-15).
My Spirit shall not always strive with man. The Hebrew [yaadown], 'my Spirit shall not be made low in man; i.e., the higher and divine nature shall not forever be humiliated in the lower, shall not ever descend from heaven and dwell in flesh forever (Gesenius). Others, as De Wette, Maurer, Knobel, and Delitzsch, render it, 'My spirit (the divine breath which was breathed into him at creation) shall not judge or rule in man forever;' i.e., they shall not live so long as their ancestors. But "my Spirit" seems rather to refer here to the Holy Spirit; and in that view there are two interpretations given to this clause. The Septuagint, the Syriac, the Chaldaic, and the Vulgate [reading yaadowr] render it 'my Spirit shall not always dwell or remain with man,' as threatening to forewarn them that the Shechinah, or divine presence, which had hitherto continued at the gate of Eden, and among the Sethites, would be withdrawn from the world. The other interpretation is that given in the King James Version, and it seems most in accordance with the context: "shall not strive," namely, by bringing a charge of guilt against them judicially by the external ministry of His servants, until at length the trial of the world is brought to a close by Noah condemning it through his faith (Heb 11:7). Christ, as God, had, by His Spirit inspiring Enoch, Noah, and perhaps other prophets (1 Peter 3:9; 2 Peter 2:5; Jude 14), preached repentance to the antediluvians; but, as they had continued incorrigible, He would withdraw the services of His prophetic messengers, who had been sent to admonish and warn them, and would come to employ any further efforts for reclaiming a people who resisted the most powerful means of conviction, giving them over to a reprobate mind (Hos 4:17; Rom 1:28), and letting merited vengeance take its course (cf. Isa 63:10; Acts 5:9; 7:51; Eph 4:30; 1 Thess 5:19).
For that he also is flesh. 'The objection,' says Keil, 'to this explanation is that the gam, rendered also, introduces an incongruous emphasis into the clause. I therefore prefer to regard it as a plural suffix with the infinitive of shaagah, 'in their erring (that of men) he (man as a genus) is flesh;' i.e., men have proved themselves, by their erring and straying, to be flesh, given up to sensuality, incapable of being ruled by the Spirit of God, and led back to the divine goal of their life. The term "flesh" is used in the sense which it commonly bears in the New Testament-the nature of man as corrupted and degraded by the predominance of debasing lusts and unbridled passions (John 3:6; Rom 8:5-7; 13:14).
Yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. Josephus, and most of the old commentators, with Tuch, Baumgarten, Hupfeld, Knobel, Ewald among the modern, consider these words as intimating that the life of man, instead of being, as hitherto, continued to a patriarchal longevity, was to be reduced to a comparatively brief period; that the withdrawal of the vivifying Spirit of God, in consequence of human transgression, would render man a frail, short-lived creature on earth, and hence, the duration of his mortal existence would be limited to 120 years. This explanation, however, is objectionable, on the ground that it is not consistent with the facts of the sacred history; because the age of many of the post-diluvian patriarchs exceeded that specified time-namely, Noah and his sons lived much longer after the flood - Arphaxad, 530 years (Gen 11:13); Salah, 403 (Gen 11:15); Eber, 430 (Gen 11:17); Abraham, 175 (Gen 25:7); Isaac, 180 (Gen 35:28); Jacob, 147 (Gen 47:28); and after the time of Moses the life of man was gradually shortened, and reduced further and further, until it was fixed at the normal standard of threescore years and ten.
Therefore, the 120 years cannot refer to any alteration in the length of human life, but to a respite granted to mankind from an awful judgment, and to the limitation of the season of grace to that number of years. This is the opinion of Onkelos, Luther, Calvin, Ranke, Keil, Kurtz, and Hengstenberg. It accords with the tenor of Scripture, which describes the period allotted for repentance and reformation as "the long-suffering of God in the days of Noah" (1 Peter 3:19-20); and well might it be designated a period of "long-suffering," for, as has been well observed, the probationary term afforded to the antediluvians was three times greater than the time of trial to the Jews in the wilderness, and to the same people after the crucifixion until the destruction of Jerusalem. It may be inferred from data in this history, that the announcement of the predicted doom of the antediluvian race was made to Noah in the 480 th year of his age, after which he became "a preacher of righteousness."

Genesis 6:4
There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
There were giants in the earth in those days [Hebrew, ha-N­piliym]. The Nephilim were in the earth in those days. The marked manner in which they are introduced to our notice is sufficient to prevent them from being identified with "the sons of God," or considered as the offspring of these; because they are described as already in existence and well known at the time when the Sethites began to intermarry with the other branches of the Adamic family. Who, or what, then, were the Nephilim? In the only other passage where the word occurs (Num 13:32-33) it clearly means giants, being derived, as Havernick suggests, from the mutually related roots of three verbs, yielding the fundamental idea of huge, extraordinary size. Nor can it be deemed incredible that in the antediluvian age, when, from the remains of quadrupeds and other inferior animals, we see that they were of an immensely larger type than the existing race of them exhibits, the physical powers and stature of Adam's descendants should have been greatly superior to the present standard of humanity. The analogy of nature would require that 'man among the mammoths' should, in physique, have borne some proportion to the magnitude of his bestial contemporaries.
Also, archaeology shows from the traditionary fables of the classical poets, as well as from the colossal monuments that are extant, that there were people in remote times of Cyclopean strength; and whether this may be predicated of mankind generally, or was the characteristic peculiarity of a certain class only, various circumstances contribute to warrant the conclusion, that in the world before the flood there were Titans distinguished by corporeal stature and energies far above the present scale. But although the idea of gigantic power does underlie the language of the sacred historian, the term Nephilim seems to bear a deeper significance; and if etymology may guide us, it describes a class of men of worthless and at the same time of violent character. It is commonly traced to naapal, to fall, and considered to signify either fallen ones, apostates, or falling upon others. In the first sense many of the fathers applied it to designate fallen angels. But it evidently describes a particular class of men, and hence, the latter meaning is preferable, intimating that the Nephilim were marauding nomads-men of a violent, overbearing, lawless character-who abused their bodily powers to obtain their selfish ends; who were constantly roving from place to place in quest of plunder, and, emerging suddenly from their retreat, made attacks both on the property and the lives of men (cf. Josh 11:7; Job 1:15; 16:14; 22:15, where they are called m­teey ... 'aazew, associated in wickedness).
And also after that - afterward went in [Hebrew, yabo°uw]. The use of the future intimates the continuance of the relationship.
The same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown - literally, these were the heroes who from ancient times were men of renown [Hebrew, hagiboriym, mighty men: a term descriptive of any superiority, physical or mental, Gen 10:9]. Robbers and tyrants who despoiled and oppressed the peaceful inhabitants were already existing in the world; and it was not at all wonderful that among the descendants of Cain numbers should be found addicted to deeds of rapine and bloodshed. Whether the Sethite husbands, having broken through the restraints of religion, settled in infidelity, or, slaves to female influence, they abandoned all care of their households to their worldly and godless partners, a progeny was reared under them, utter strangers to everything sacred and good, without either precept or example to control the outbursts of juvenile passions. Each succeeding race became worse. But the mixed marriages that became so frequent produced a vast increase of violent and lawless characters like the Nephilim-persons of reckless ferocity and audacious impiety, who spread devastation and carnage far and wide, and by the terror which their name inspired, obtained such lasting notoriety that in subsequent ages of ignorance and idolatry they were exalted by different nations, under various names, into the demigods of pagan mythology.
(from Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1997, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)


Allow me to give you one more: This is from my notes on the subject:

Please direct your attention to Genesis chapter 4 to the record we have of the first murder. Qayin (Cain) slew his own brother Hevel (Abel) out of envy and bitterness that he allowed to grow in his heart despite being warned of God to let it go. When God confronted Cain about his sin, Cain lied and God replied, "What hast thou done?! The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the GROUND! And now art thou cursed FROM THE EARTH, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand; when thou tillest the GROUND, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a FUGITIVE and a VAGABOND shalt thou be IN THE EARTH!" (Gen. 4:1-12)

Cain replied, "My punishment is greater than I can bear (greater than I deserve). Behold, Thou hast driven me out this day FROM THE FACE (SURFACE) OF THE EARTH; and FROM THY FACE SHALL I BE HID; and I shall be a FUGITIVE and a VAGABOND IN THE EARTH; and it shall come to pass, that every one that FINDETH me shall slay me." (Gen. 4:13-14)

The LORD in His pity for Cain then said, "Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold." And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any FINDING him should kill him. (Gen. 4:15)

Cain then went out FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nowd ("wandering"), on the east of Eden. (Gen. 4:16)

Then, Cain and his wife had a son and called his name Chanokh (or Enoch). Then, Cain built a city and called the name of that city "Chanokh" after his son. Then, we are told of six more generations that his son produced. What if this city is not on the surface of the earth? What if Nod, a place of Wandering, was a CAVERN SYSTEM where he could hide? (Gen. 4:17)

We are next told of an interesting story, the first recorded incident of killing in self-defense:

Genesis 4:16-24
16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.
18 And unto Enoch was born Irad: and Irad begat Mehujael: and Mehujael begat Methusael: and Methusael begat Lamech.
19 And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah.
20 And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle.
21 And his brother's name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ.
22 And Zillah, she also bare Tubal-cain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron: and the sister of Tubal-cain was Naamah.
23 And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt.
24 If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold.

KJV

The problem is that God never truly intervened for Lamekh (Lamech) as He did for Qayin (Cain). I believe that either he and his family were driven out of Chanokh and out of the cavern system at this time or they fled for their lives. In either case, they were forced out into the full sunlight which they had never had to deal with in the past. We read that Yaval (Jabal) was "the father of such as dwell in tents" and that his half-brother, Tuval-Qayin (Tubal-Cain), was "an instructer [sic] of every artificer in brass and iron." Why did they live in tents? After years without the sun, their skin was quite blanched and more susceptible to sunburns. Where did Tuval-Qayin get his knowledge of brass and iron? In Chanokh within the caverns, he had learned to work metals, even in alloys since brass is an alloy.

Now, some of you are going to turn me off (or may have already turned me off) thinking that this is all fanciful thinking and conjecture. I don't deny that this is conjecture, but if you will bear with me, I think you will find that there is merit to this idea, and that it fits many facts.

Meanwhile, on the surface--in the light of the sun, under the blue skies (heavens), and "under the face of God"--Adam has another son and named him "Shet (Seth)" as a substitute for Hevel (Abel):

Genesis 4:25-26
25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.
26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.
KJV


Now, I've heard some preachers say that this was when people began to pray; however, Adam was already familiar with speaking to God and receiving answers. A few preachers will even suggest that this was when people started to "get saved." But that is not what this verse is talking about. Looking carefully at the Hebrew words, one will discover that this was when people started to use the name of the LORD as a talisman or a good-luck charm! They began to tack his name onto their own to ward off evil, and they became prideful that they were allowed to be in the LORD'S presence.

Looking again carefully at the passage in Genesis 6,

Genesis 6:1-8
1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face (SURFACE) of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God (a term applied to themselves as a term of prejudice) saw the daughters of men that they were fair (tov "good"); and they (forcefully) took them wives of all which they chose (desired).
3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4 There were giants (n'faliym "tyrants") in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men (g'boriym "champions" [like Goliath] or "heroes") which were of old, men of renown (famous or popular men).
5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

KJV

Now we can see what so enraged the LORD! He hated the tyranny, the slavery ("white" slavery, if you'll forgive the pun), and injustice to fellow human beings, but when you compound that with the fact that the rest of the population made them out to be heroes and champions and to make them popular as well, this was the last straw!

Now, granted this has been conjecture, but one may notice that it does fit the facts and gives a plausible explanation as to how these "sons of God" could be the progeny of Shet (Seth) and still act like anything but "sons of God" in spite of the fact that they were called "the sons of God." It was a term of PREJUDICE!
 

JosyWales

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The sons of God can be either human or divine in nature.

The man Adam was referred to as the son of God in the Bible in the lineages of Christ written by Luke (Luk 3:38). This tells me that the sons of God in Genesis who mated with the daughters of men are the sons of Adam.

However, the use of the phrase 'sons of God' that is used in the book of Job seems to indicate divine beings . We know this because Satan was among the sons of God and both he and God were able to speak to each other in a face-to-face manner, so it is unlikely that this event occurred in a physical Temple on earth.

The duality of this term is also expressed in its use towards Jesus . Christ was referred to as both the Son of Man and the son of God. This again shows that the phrase 'son of God' can be used toward those in the physical realm and the spiritual realm.

Once again we see this to be a matter of application depending on the situation.

Actually, Angels can also mean either a physical man or a divine being. As we know the word Angel only means messenger, and that can be anyone. I think the problem was people have somehow been conditioned into accepting words as having only one meaning or application. This happens all the time and leads to much confusion

For example: the word Messiah in Daniel has become commonly accepted as being Jesus. People don't seem to realize that the word that is interpreted as Messiah in Daniel is used throughout the Bible. However in every other case is always interpreted as 'anointed one'. This same word is used in the book of Isaiah applied toward Cyrus king of Persia.

I will point out one more time that if people really wish to understand the Bible, they should read the Bible cover to cover, straight through, at least once, otherwise they truly have no frame of reference in which to make valid interpretations . Actually I should amend that and say you should read it several times through cover to cover, because it is amazing how much you pick up on second and third readings.
 
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Retrobyter

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Shalom, JosyWales.

The sons of God can be either human or divine in nature.

The man Adam was referred to as the son of God in the Bible in the lineages of Christ written by Luke (Luk 3:38). This tells me that the sons of God in Genesis who mated with the daughters of men are the sons of Adam.

However, the use of the phrase 'sons of God' that is used in the book of Job seems to indicate divine beings . We know this because Satan was among the sons of God and both he and God were able to speak to each other in a face-to-face manner, so it is unlikely that this event occurred in a physical Temple on earth.

The duality of this term is also expressed in its use towards Jesus . Christ was referred to as both the Son of Man and the son of God. This again shows that the phrase 'son of God' can be used toward those in the physical realm and the spiritual realm.

Once again we see this to be a matter of application depending on the situation.

Actually, Angels can also mean either a physical man or a divine being. As we know the word Angel only means messenger, and that can be anyone. I think the problem was people have somehow been conditioned into accepting words as having only one meaning or application. This happens all the time and leads to much confusion

For example: the word Messiah in Daniel has become commonly accepted as being Jesus. People don't seem to realize that the word that is interpreted as Messiah in Daniel is used throughout the Bible. However in every other case is always interpreted as 'anointed one'. This same word is used in the book of Isaiah applied toward Cyrus king of Persia.

I will point out one more time that if people really wish to understand the Bible, they should read the Bible cover to cover, straight through, at least once, otherwise they truly have no frame of reference in which to make valid interpretations . Actually I should amend that and say you should read it several times through cover to cover, because it is amazing how much you pick up on second and third readings.

VERY GOOD!!! Well said! I've been trying to get people to see this for quite some time, but you have said it quite eloquently! One SHOULD read and re-read the Bible often! And, since it was written by several different authors under the inspiration of the Master Author, they can read it book by book. For instance, I believe that one should read a WHOLE prophecy in one sitting as often as possible. That may be difficult to do with the longer prophecies, such as Isaiah or Ezekiel, but surely the shorter ones like Micah and Joel can be read in a single sitting. Even when read out loud, some of them will take less than an hour or two to read from beginning to end.

Secondly, I believe you are "spot on" when it comes to various terms in the Bible. "Angel" means "messenger" because both "mal'akh" in Hebrew and "aggelos" in Greek mean "messenger!" People HAVE been conditioned to think of the word "angel" as only referring to supernatural messengers. (I would rather not use the word "divine" as I believe that only refers to God.)

You're also right about the word "messiah." The Hebrew word is "maashiyach," Strong's OT:4899 spelled "mem-shin-yod-chet," often with a "qamets" under the "mem," a "chireq" under the "shin," and a "patach" under the "chet," and there were several people in the Tanakh (the OT) that were "maashiyachiym" or "messiahs." The word does mean "one who is anointed or rubbed with oil"; however, that does not mean to have oil "poured" over a person, but rather to have a thickened oil poured into a person's cupped hand and then "rubbed" over a person's head, much as we do with shampoo when washing our hair. Sha'uwl (Saul) was one so anointed by Sh'mu'el (Samuel), as was Dawid (David) and Shlomo (Solomon), but then so were Aharown (Aaron) and any of his sons and grandsons who were so anointed as cohen gadowl (high priest) after him. Indeed, even prophets were so anointed, such as Eliyahuw (Elijah).

Since the translation of "maashiyach" into Greek was "christos," also meaning "rubbed" or "anointed," which in turn was shortened and adopted into English as "christ," there were, therefore, many christs in the Tanakh! Thus, it would be appropriate to call Dawid "christ David" and Shlomo "christ Solomon". However, the ULTIMATE "Christ" was our Master Yeshua` (Lord Jesus). Thus, the title was added to His name: Christ Jesus, Jesus the Christ, Jesus Christ,

Now, "rubbed" is what the word meant, but it demonstrated that the person was "selected by God" for a particular service, whether to serve as the high priest, a prophet, or a king. The person was a representative on God's behalf, an emmissary for God.

Other words are so treated by Christians: "heaven," "hell," and "church," to name a few.

Oh, and about "sons of God" (as opposed to "Son of God"): Isn't it interesting that all of the OT references are said to be of "angels," while all the NT references are said to be of men?
 

veteran

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Job 1:6-8
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered My servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
(KJV)


Saying that is about flesh men presenting themselves before The LORD, along with the cherub Satan, is certainly outside the Scripture meaning.



The phrase "sons of God" is about the angelic state, i.e., the future resurrection state for those in Christ. Under the New Covenant it is applied to the faithful of Christ's Church, but linked to a still future event, the time of our redemption by Christ.


Rom 8:18-19
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
(KJV)


I Jn 3:1-2
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew Him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is.
(KJV)

NOWHERE in Scripture is that title "sons of God" applied to the flesh, but instead to one's spirit led by The Spirit of God, being of God.


And our Lord Jesus said this about those of the resurrection unto Life...

Mark 12:25
25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
(KJV)


In the heavenly, the angels which follow and serve Christ are still "sons of God". But those that appeared before The LORD in Job were angels that rebelled with Satan. Other of Satan's rebellious angels did the deed of Gen.6 which Jude declared are locked in chains awaiting the great day of judgment...


Jude 1:6-7
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
(KJV)



It is truly a silly doctrine to try and use word definition play in attempt to get around this matter of what those angels did, especially in light of the following prophecy...

Rev 12:7-12
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
(KJV)

The verses in red can only point to the time after Christ's crucifixion and resurrection. This means the devil and his angels are coming here in the last days, on earth.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, JosyWales.

Retrobyter, the sons of God mentioned in Genesis who mate with the daughters of men are the sons of Adam, not angels.

Right! If you thought I said otherwise, you're mistaken. I'm an advocate AGAINST the "sons of God" being "angels."
 

JosyWales

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I was gonna write this big long thing to Veteran, but instead Ill just say that in Luke 3:38 Adam is called the son of God, therefore his sons are also sons of God and thats who I think this is talking about. I am glad that Retrobyter agrees with me on this.

I do agree that the passage in Job appears to be nonphysical, and truly in the spiritual realm.

The war in Heaven between Michael and Satan may start in Heaven (I am not actually sure of that to be honest) but it ends up on Earth, since the woman is taken into the wilderness and protected for the same 1260 days that the 2 Witnesses walk the earth, which is also the time of the Beasts' reign according to Revelation. This is also proven by the statement that Michael and his angels (in Rev 12:9) overcome Satan by the "Blood of the Lamb" and "loved not their lives unto the death". Since people dont die in Heaven, this must take place on earth.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, veteran.

Job 1:6-8
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered My servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
(KJV)


Saying that is about flesh men presenting themselves before The LORD, along with the cherub Satan, is certainly outside the Scripture meaning.

Not at all, bro'. You are ASSUMING that the LORD has to be in "Heaven" for these "sons of God" to present themselves before Him. And yet, YHWH has this to say:

Exodus 20:22-24
22 And the Lord said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.
23 Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold.
24 An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee.
KJV


The phrase "sons of God" is about the angelic state, i.e., the future resurrection state for those in Christ. Under the New Covenant it is applied to the faithful of Christ's Church, but linked to a still future event, the time of our redemption by Christ.

Rom 8:18-19
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
(KJV)

I Jn 3:1-2
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew Him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is.
(KJV)

NOWHERE in Scripture is that title "sons of God" applied to the flesh, but instead to one's spirit led by The Spirit of God, being of God.

Right, sure. Umm.... ever read this?

1 John 3:2
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
KJV


And our Lord Jesus said this about those of the resurrection unto Life...

Mark 12:25
25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
(KJV)

In the heavenly, the angels which follow and serve Christ are still "sons of God". But those that appeared before The LORD in Job were angels that rebelled with Satan. Other of Satan's rebellious angels did the deed of Gen.6 which Jude declared are locked in chains awaiting the great day of judgment...

Jude 1:6-7
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
(KJV)

Again, you are ASSUMING that there is a connection between Genesis 6:1-8 and Jude 1:6-7. There's no proof for that assumption. Furthermore, you are assuming that these "angels" or "aggeloi" are SUPERNATURAL "messengers"; they may not be supernatural but HUMAN "messengers!" Are you saying that the homosexual males in Sodom and Gomorrha were "angels?!" Think again!

It is truly a silly doctrine to try and use word definition play in attempt to get around this matter of what those angels did, especially in light of the following prophecy...

Rev 12:7-12
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
(KJV)

The verses in red can only point to the time after Christ's crucifixion and resurrection. This means the devil and his angels are coming here in the last days, on earth.

You have a bad habit of calling any idea with which you don't agree "silly." I agree with you about the timing; that's not the issue. The problem is assuming that "heaven" is "God's abode" beyond the "heaven of stars," when "heaven" simply means "the sky." This passage is talking about an ARIAL BATTLE! The Enemy and his messengers will be grounded.

Furthermore, you should understand that this is about the RESCUE in the future. That's to what the word "salvation" refers. This is about the early stages of Yeshua`s arrival. And, it is certainly wrong to assume ... AGAIN ... that these "angels" are necessarily supernatural "messengers!"
 

veteran

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I was gonna write this big long thing to Veteran, but instead Ill just say that in Luke 3:38 Adam is called the son of God, therefore his sons are also sons of God and thats who I think this is talking about. I am glad that Retrobyter agrees with me on this.

Adam is called "son of God" in Luke 3 for what reason though? Can't apply his flesh creation to anyone in the flesh like all his descendents can. Furthermore, applying that title to us would be wrongly applying to the idea of flesh creation, when Paul and John were not confused on the title being of The Spirit and not of flesh. So your logic fails.


I do agree that the passage in Job appears to be nonphysical, and truly in the spiritual realm.

It is in the heavenly realm, even before The Father's throne, unless you believe it was in some tabernacle tent on earth.


The war in Heaven between Michael and Satan may start in Heaven (I am not actually sure of that to be honest) but it ends up on Earth, since the woman is taken into the wilderness and protected for the same 1260 days that the 2 Witnesses walk the earth, which is also the time of the Beasts' reign according to Revelation. This is also proven by the statement that Michael and his angels (in Rev 12:9) overcome Satan by the "Blood of the Lamb" and "loved not their lives unto the death". Since people dont die in Heaven, this must take place on earth.

The ones that overcome by The Blood of The Lamb is about those of the 5th Seal of Rev.6, not the archangels like Michael and Gabriel.

Shalom, veteran.


Not at all, bro'. You are ASSUMING that the LORD has to be in "Heaven" for these "sons of God" to present themselves before Him. And yet, YHWH has this to say:

Exodus 20:22-24
22 And the Lord said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.
23 Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold.
24 An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee.
KJV

Rev.12;7 reveals Satan and his angels have a place in... heaven. There's TWO heavens mentioned in Gen.1:1 per the Hebrew. Only ONE of them is about the 'sky' around the earth! One of these days you'll know about the other one instead trying to relate it to the sky and stars and such, which is from thinking with a fleshy mind. This is why God coming to the tabernacle and temple in OT times involving flesh man is different than the angels coming in His direct Presence in the Heavenly per Job 1 & 2.


Right, sure. Umm.... ever read this?

1 John 3:2
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
KJV

Funny how you just simply PASS over the rest of what John said there in relation to that "sons of God" title. Note that he's speaking of a future 'change' that's involved. It's the same idea Paul used about those in Christ becoming a "new creature" (actually 'new creation' per the Greek). It's about our spirit inside our flesh being born of The Spirit. It's is NOT about our flesh body state. How can one who claims to have believed on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ miss that point from the NT Scripture?


Again, you are ASSUMING that there is a connection between Genesis 6:1-8 and Jude 1:6-7. There's no proof for that assumption. Furthermore, you are assuming that these "angels" or "aggeloi" are SUPERNATURAL "messengers"; they may not be supernatural but HUMAN "messengers!" Are you saying that the homosexual males in Sodom and Gomorrha were "angels?!" Think again!

I don't have to assume anything about the Jude Scripture. It's plain as day that even a little child can understand it.

Jude 1:6-7
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
(KJV)

Trying to imply the word "angel" in Scripture always applies to some flesh human being is laughable at best! You've got to be listening to a son of the devil with that ignorance! Maybe you ought to get them to tell Christ how He mis-used the idea of angels too!!!


You have a bad habit of calling any idea with which you don't agree "silly." I agree with you about the timing; that's not the issue. The problem is assuming that "heaven" is "God's abode" beyond the "heaven of stars," when "heaven" simply means "the sky." This passage is talking about an ARIAL BATTLE! The Enemy and his messengers will be grounded.

Can't help it, got that from my Heavenly Father (Jer.4:22 with "sottish" = foolish, silly). Some ideas you're heeding that angels only mean flesh people, that is silly. No other expression for that kind of idea. Same goes for thinking our Heavenly Father's Abode of the Heavenly is in the sky atmospheric heaven that surrounds the earth, or out in the stars somewhere. Obviously you have yet to learn the difference between flesh and this material world vs. His Spirit and His Heavenly Abode (John 4:24).


Furthermore, you should understand that this is about the RESCUE in the future. That's to what the word "salvation" refers. This is about the early stages of Yeshua`s arrival. And, it is certainly wrong to assume ... AGAIN ... that these "angels" are necessarily supernatural "messengers!"

What happens where you worship? Are they the ones teaching you those ideas? Christ's Salvation is just that, His Salvation unto Eternal Life, His servants putting on immortality and living with Him and The Father forever while the unbelieving are destroyed. Rescue is an idea that better fits with the false Pre-trib Rapture believers. And yes, the "angels" of Jude 1 are SUPERNATURAL, meaning NOT of our material dimension existence. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit, like Jesus said (John 3).
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, veteran.

Adam is called "son of God" in Luke 3 for what reason though? Can't apply his flesh creation to anyone in the flesh like all his descendents can. Furthermore, applying that title to us would be wrongly applying to the idea of flesh creation, when Paul and John were not confused on the title being of The Spirit and not of flesh. So your logic fails.

Actually, JosyWales is not so far off. When Adam was created, flesh AND spirit into one soul, it was BEFORE his fall. He was created by a perfect God to be included among His creation pronounced by God as "very good."

It is in the heavenly realm, even before The Father's throne, unless you believe it was in some tabernacle tent on earth.

It's not in the Temple; it's not in the Tabernacle (tent); and it's CERTAINLY not "before the Father's throne" off-world somewhere! It's AT THE ALTAR that God meets with human beings, now that we're after the Fall. Our altar was the Cross! (Ron Wyatt says the Cross was built as an altar OVER the mercy seat. See http://www.wyattarchaeology.com/). Upon that altar, the blood of the Lamb of God (haKeves Elohiym) was spilt, and it is at THAT altar where God now meets with mankind.


Rev.12;7 reveals Satan and his angels have a place in... heaven. There's TWO heavens mentioned in Gen.1:1 per the Hebrew. Only ONE of them is about the 'sky' around the earth! One of these days you'll know about the other one instead trying to relate it to the sky and stars and such, which is from thinking with a fleshy mind. This is why God coming to the tabernacle and temple in OT times involving flesh man is different than the angels coming in His direct Presence in the Heavenly per Job 1 & 2.

Now, THIS is good. This is something that is fundamental to the discussion. SHOW ME these "TWO heavens": Here's the Hebrew transliterated of Genesis 1:1:

Bree'shiyt 1:1
1 Bree'shiyt baaraa' Elohiym eet ha-shaamayim v'eet haa'aarets.
PC Study Bible V5 Interlinear


The ball's in your court; be careful of your return. I may just slam this one down your throat! (In other words, if you truly know, I already know how you'll respond.)

Funny how you just simply PASS over the rest of what John said there in relation to that "sons of God" title. Note that he's speaking of a future 'change' that's involved. It's the same idea Paul used about those in Christ becoming a "new creature" (actually 'new creation' per the Greek). It's about our spirit inside our flesh being born of The Spirit. It's is NOT about our flesh body state. How can one who claims to have believed on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ miss that point from the NT Scripture?

I didn't just PASS over the rest; I just didn't linger on it. See, we already are the "sons of God," though. We don't need to have our bodies redeemed first before we can be called "sons of God." It's a "DONE DEAL!" You know this as do I. The point is that we can already - as natural human beings - be called "sons of God." The OT times are no different because they were justified by God IN THE SAME WAY before Yeshua`s death - looking forward to His death through the symbols and the rituals - as we are today! They were justified by God through His grace, through faith, and by blood. The ONLY difference is that God no longer requires the symbolism and ritual because the ACTUAL has taken place! Furthermore, because the symbolism and ritual were temporary (only lasting a year at best), they had to KEEP looking forward to His death, just as we now REMEMBER what Yeshua` has accomplished through the Lord's Supper and Baptism. These are OUR constant reminders so that the memory does not fade! That's why churches now that diminish either the Lord's Supper or baptism usually lose the message of God's justification soon afterward. They DO make a difference!

I don't have to assume anything about the Jude Scripture. It's plain as day that even a little child can understand it.

Jude 1:6-7
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
(KJV)

Trying to imply the word "angel" in Scripture always applies to some flesh human being is laughable at best! You've got to be listening to a son of the devil with that ignorance! Maybe you ought to get them to tell Christ how He mis-used the idea of angels too!!!

The Messiah never misused the idea of "aggeloi" (obviously). However, He did make it a point to QUALIFY His usage of the word:

Mark 12:25
25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
KJV


I never claimed that every usage of the word was a "flesh human being." HOWEVER, it is equally wrong to assume that every usage of the word always applies to some supernatural being! That, too, is "laughable" (if it weren't so tragic). See, there ARE times when the word does NOT refer to supernatural beings! Here are two such cases:

Firstly, the one who speaks to Yochanan (John) was a human being called an "aggelos":

Revelation 22:8-9
8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
KJV


Here's the Greek:

Apokalupsis 22:8-9
8 Kagoo Iooannees ho akouoon kai blepoon tauta. Kai hote eekousa kai eblepsa, epesa proskuneesai emprosthen toon podoon tou aggelou tou deiknuontos moi tauta.
9 Kai legei moi, "Hora mee! Sundoulos sou eimi kai toon adelfoon sou toon profeetoon kai toon teerountoon tous logous tou bibliou toutou; too Theoo proskuneeson."

PC Study Bible V5 Interlinear

8 Kagoo = 8 And-I
Iooannees = Yochanan/John
ho = the
akouoon = hearer
kai = and
blepoon = seer
tauta. = of-these-things.
Kai = And/Also
hote = when
eekousa = I-had-heard
kai = and/also
eblepsa, = I-had-seen,
epesa = I-fell-down
proskuneesai = prostrating-myself
emprosthen = in-front-of
toon = the
podoon = feet
tou = of-the
aggelou = messenger/angel
tou = of-the
deiknuontos = one-who-showed
moi = me
tauta. = these-things.
9 Kai = 9 And/also
legei = he-said
moi, = to-me,
"Hora = "Look
mee! = no!
Sundoulos = A-co-slave
sou = of-you
eimi = I-am
kai = and/also
toon = of-the
adelfoon = brothers/siblings
sou = of-you
toon = of-the
profeetoon = prophets
kai = and/also
toon = of-the
teerountoon = keepers/guards
tous = of-the
logous = words/topics
tou = of-the
bibliou = book
toutou; = this-one;
too = to-the
Theoo = God
proskuneeson." = prostrate-yourself."

8 And-I Yochanan/John the hearer and seer of-these-things. And/Also when I-had-heard and/also I-had-seen, I-fell-down prostrating-myself in-front-of the feet of-the messenger/angel of-the one-who-showed me these-things.
9 And/also he-said to-me, "Look no! A-co-slave of-you/your I-am and/also of-the brothers/siblings of-you/your of-the prophets and/also of-the keepers/guards of-the words/topics of-the book this-one; to-the God prostrate-yourself."

Neither in the English of the KJV nor in the Greek are any other verbs used in his statement within verse 9 than the one verb eimi, "I am." Thus, the conjunction links the phrases from the verb, not the direct object. Therefore, this angel - this messenger - was not saying "I am a co-slave of you and a co-slave of your brothers the prophets...." He was saying, "I am a co-slave of you and I am of your brothers the prophets...!" Therefore, this "angel" was really a messenger who USED TO BE one of his brothers, a prophet!

Secondly, John the Baptist was a human being called an "aggelos":

Matthew 11:7-10
7 And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
8 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses.
9 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.
10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger (Greek: aggelos) before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
KJV

Here, the word directly is applied to Yochanan the Immerser (John the Baptist), as quoted by Yeshua` Himself!

Can't help it, got that from my Heavenly Father (Jer.4:22 with "sottish" = foolish, silly).

Be careful that you're not falling into this category:

Matthew 5:22
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool (Greek: "mooros" from which we get our word "moron"), shall be in danger of hell fire (Greek: "teen ge-ennan tou puros" referring to "of-the gei-Hinnom of-the fire," the valley near the constantly burning rubbish heap in which kings used to set up their judgment seats outside Yerushalayim/Jerusalem).
KJV


Some ideas you're heeding that angels only mean flesh people, that is silly. No other expression for that kind of idea. Same goes for thinking our Heavenly Father's Abode of the Heavenly is in the sky atmospheric heaven that surrounds the earth, or out in the stars somewhere. Obviously you have yet to learn the difference between flesh and this material world vs. His Spirit and His Heavenly Abode (John 4:24).

No, I STARTED that way, i.e., "'knowing' that there was a difference between flesh and this material world vs His Spirit and His Heavenly Abode," and then learned the TRUTH about how far theological philosophy has veered from the actual wording of the Scriptures! It's about time that people come to understand that the Scriptures are far simpler to understand than jokers who speak about a "Heavenly Abode" and wrongly using the term "spiritual" propose. I've learned to reject the common theological errors that are propagated to new-comers to theology. Why should we teach this convoluted, fictitious gobbledygook? STICK TO SCRIPTURES!

What happens where you worship? Are they the ones teaching you those ideas? Christ's Salvation is just that, His Salvation unto Eternal Life, His servants putting on immortality and living with Him and The Father forever while the unbelieving are destroyed. Rescue is an idea that better fits with the false Pre-trib Rapture believers. And yes, the "angels" of Jude 1 are SUPERNATURAL, meaning NOT of our material dimension existence. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit, like Jesus said (John 3).

No, some of them are stuck in the old Pre-trib Rapture while others believe Post-trib Rapture. And, I believe something entirely different because that is how God's leading me in my studies. As far as the "angels" of Jude 1 being supernatural, I think you need to consider the verse in context. It makes no sense to look at the verse disjoint from the rest of the book.
 

veteran

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Our soul and spirit are not of flesh, though they are 'in' the flesh body. In Matt.10 for one example, our Lord Jesus Christ well showed that fact.

Matt 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him Which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
(KJV)

Even in Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 this fact is shown early in Scripture that the flesh body is not of the same order as one's spirit. What Jesus said in Matt.10 adds the idea of the soul in the same class as one's spirit; it's because the soul and spirit are inseparable from each other. But the soul and spirit can be separated from one's flesh, which is what happens at flesh death.

The 'dead in the ground', and the idea that the soul is of the flesh order, is an old Jewish tradition. That's why you would think that God's Heavenly Abode is literally in the sky atmosphere around the earth somewhere, or among the literal stars, which is still part of this material existence which God created, i.e., the celestial bodies Paul spoke of. Celestial bodies are simply material objects out away from the earth, like the sun, moon, planets, and stars, galaxies, solar systems, etc. They are all a part of this present material dimension we live in. They are simply extra-terrestrial (away from the earth).

So God our Rock is not an alien from another planet.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, veteran.

Our soul and spirit are not of flesh, though they are 'in' the flesh body. In Matt.10 for one example, our Lord Jesus Christ well showed that fact.

Matt 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him Which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
(KJV)

Even in Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 this fact is shown early in Scripture that the flesh body is not of the same order as one's spirit. What Jesus said in Matt.10 adds the idea of the soul in the same class as one's spirit; it's because the soul and spirit are inseparable from each other. But the soul and spirit can be separated from one's flesh, which is what happens at flesh death.

The 'dead in the ground', and the idea that the soul is of the flesh order, is an old Jewish tradition. That's why you would think that God's Heavenly Abode is literally in the sky atmosphere around the earth somewhere, or among the literal stars, which is still part of this material existence which God created, i.e., the celestial bodies Paul spoke of. Celestial bodies are simply material objects out away from the earth, like the sun, moon, planets, and stars, galaxies, solar systems, etc. They are all a part of this present material dimension we live in. They are simply extra-terrestrial (away from the earth).

So God our Rock is not an alien from another planet.

Well, our spirits are not of flesh, but our souls are the COMBINATION of our spirits and our bodies! Also, the word "spirit" means a "breath" or "wind." Now, that may be representative of the "immaterial part" of a person, but strictly speaking, the Hebrew word "ruach" and the Greek word "pneuma" refer to the "breath" as a breeze of a current of air. It is defined well in Genesis 2:7:

Gen 2:7
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
KJV


Thus, God formed the body, breathed into his nostrils the spirit, and man became a living soul. Literally, in Hebrew this means that God formed the body, breathed into his nostrils the breath, and man became a living breather! It's that simple. The "soul" was not put into the man, the "spirit" was; he BECAME a living "soul!" Doesn't it bother you that Ecclesiastes 12:7 doesn't mention the "soul?"

You also need to pay closer attention to the Greek language for words like "heaven" and "hell." It's NOT a mediaeval dichotomy, like they used to believe in the 1200s A.D.! "Hell" is the English word that was used to translate three different Greek words in the NT: geenna, hadees, and tartaro-oo.

Geenna is the Greek transliteration of the Hebrew phrase "Gei-Hinnom," the valley just outside of the Old City of Yerushalayim, where the trash and refuse of the city was burned, where the idol of Moloch was set up for people to sacrifice their children, and where the kings used to set up their judgment seats to handle matters like a supreme court. One can go to Isra'el and see "Gei-Hinnom," the "Valley of Hinnom," today!

Hadees (usually written as "Hades" but is not pronounced "HAY-deez," but is actually pronounced "hah-DACE") means the "unseen." It refers to the grave or the results of death. Did you get to see the movie "Avatar" a couple of years back? It's similar to the way that the local inhabitants of Pandora would use the phrase "I see you." When people die, they move into the realm of the "unseen," much as we would use the word, the "unknown," today.

Tartaro-oo (pronounced "tar-tar-AH-oh," often given the noun form not found in the Bible but found in other Greek literature, Tartaros or Tartarus in Latin) is a verb that was only used once in Scripture, in 2 Peter 2:4, that Strong's says means "to incarcerate in eternal torment." Since it is used only the one time, to understand the word, one can only glean information from its context or go to that secular, pagan, Greek literature for an explanation as to how the word is used. I've done so in the past, and I have no reason to quarrel with Strong's.

The word used in Matthew 10:28 is "geenna." Thus, it is not that they should fear the One who could "destroy both body and soul" in "HELL," but "condemn both body and breather - the whole person" - in "the valley of Hinnom" and then carry out that sentence, "destroying fully" the whole person! It only stands to reason that Yeshua` will also set up HIS Judgment Seat in that same hated valley.

Finally, I know that about the word "celestial," but you must understand that the SAME GREEK WORD is used for the New Jerusalem in Hebrews 12:22! That is where the New Jerusalem is currently being built! Why is this so troublesome for you? The "gates of pearl," the "golden streets," the "river of the water of life," the "tree of life," and even the "throne of God and of the Lamb" are all within the NEW JERUSALEM (Rev. 21 and 22), not some ethereal "Heaven" out there somewhere beyond the Universe! And, where do you get off claiming I'm calling "God our Rock "an alien from another planet"?! I know that God exists outside our Universe in some sense in order for Him to CREATE the Universe; HOWEVER, WE DO NOT!! We were created for the earth, and the earth was created for mankind. Our ancestor Adam was part and parcel of the original Creation and was pronounced, along with everything else, "very good." It's where we belong! on an earth similar to the original creation, the NEW EARTH, upon which the New Jerusalem will land! We're not going to fly off to the "second star to the right and straight on 'til morning!" We're not going to some "Never-never Land" called "Heaven!" That's just theological FICTION!
 

us2are1

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The nephilim were the bastard children of the fallen angels who took for themselves wives from the daughters of men.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, "Son of Man."

You can scream it, highlight it, change the text size and color, and even change the font, all you want. It doesn't change the fact that it is an outrageous, fanciful claim that never should have been made in the first place.
 

revturmoil

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Shalom, "Son of Man."

You can scream it, highlight it, change the text size and color, and even change the font, all you want. It doesn't change the fact that it is an outrageous, fanciful claim that never should have been made in the first place.

Why not! I would have made a similar statement. Where did the giants come from and why would they be here anyway?
 

veteran

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Shalom, veteran.



Well, our spirits are not of flesh, but our souls are the COMBINATION of our spirits and our bodies! Also, the word "spirit" means a "breath" or "wind." Now, that may be representative of the "immaterial part" of a person, but strictly speaking, the Hebrew word "ruach" and the Greek word "pneuma" refer to the "breath" as a breeze of a current of air. It is defined well in Genesis 2:7:

Gen 2:7
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
KJV


Thus, God formed the body, breathed into his nostrils the spirit, and man became a living soul. Literally, in Hebrew this means that God formed the body, breathed into his nostrils the breath, and man became a living breather! It's that simple. The "soul" was not put into the man, the "spirit" was; he BECAME a living "soul!" Doesn't it bother you that Ecclesiastes 12:7 doesn't mention the "soul?"


Matt 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul (psuche): but rather fear Him Which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
(KJV)

Both of those Scripture ideas have to be weighed together. Greek psuche and pneuma are both... about the 'breath'. It's because both are made up of the same substance which God breathed into the man Adam. The idea of one's 'soul' is not of the flesh order. In the Gen.2:7 sense, it's about God breathing Adam's soul into flesh, and it manifesting in a perishable flesh body (i.e., Adam being "also flesh" in Gen.6:3; "also flesh" and what else? That shows a distinction between nephesh and flesh).

I King 17:20-22
20 And he cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, hast Thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son?
21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, "O LORD my God, I pray Thee, let this child's soul come into him again."
22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.
(KJV)

That word for "soul" (Hebrew nephesh) there in 1 Kings 17 is the same Hebrew word for "soul" as in Gen.2:7. Yet that 1 Kings 17 Scripture is clear that that child's soul (nephesh) left its flesh body.

That is the same meaning as Greek psuche in Matt.10:28 above. In the Matt.10:28 Scripture, Jesus is revealing to us that our flesh body can be killed and perish apart from our 'soul'.



You also need to pay closer attention to the Greek language for words like "heaven" and "hell." It's NOT a mediaeval dichotomy, like they used to believe in the 1200s A.D.! "Hell" is the English word that was used to translate three different Greek words in the NT: geenna, hadees, and tartaro-oo.

I don't need Greek lessons from you, thank you. I'm well aware of that the KJV word "hell" is 3 different Greek words in the NT manuscripts, and I'm aware of their Greek origin and ancient meanings. That certainly does not prove your theory that God's Heavenly Abode is out in the galaxies somewhere in the universe.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, veteran.

Matt 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul (psuche): but rather fear Him Which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
(KJV)

With this verse, let's let A = body, and B = soul. You are saying simply that A <> B (<> means "is not equal to") because those mortals who can kill A cannot kill B.
I'm going to squeeze into the mix the spirit: let A = body, B = spirit, C = soul. If C = A + B, then these mortals can kill A but not C, which means they can kill A but not A + B, meaning also that they cannot do anything to B! They cannot affect the spirit of an individual! Can you see how - logically - the verse can mean how I view Yeshua`s words, here? He doesn't mean that they are separate and apart; He means that they are just different! A body with the person's spirit is different than the body without the presence of the person's spirit!

Mankind can kill a person's body, but only God can destroy both the person's body and his spirit! I will admit, however, that verses like this one suggest to me that the spirit is more than just the "breath" of an individual but may also represent the "immaterial part" of a person by analogy.

Both of those Scripture ideas have to be weighed together. Greek psuche and pneuma are both... about the 'breath'. It's because both are made up of the same substance which God breathed into the man Adam. The idea of one's 'soul' is not of the flesh order. In the Gen.2:7 sense, it's about God breathing Adam's soul into flesh, and it manifesting in a perishable flesh body (i.e., Adam being "also flesh" in Gen.6:3; "also flesh" and what else? That shows a distinction between nephesh and flesh).

Sure, psuchee and pneuma are both about the "breath"; however, they are different in how that "breath" is referenced: The psuchee (and I just use the double ee to remind any reader that it is an eta at the end of the word instead of the epsilon) is an "animated creature" ("creature" in the sense of a "created being," not a "monster"), i.e. it is "one that breathes" or a "breather." The pneuma refers to the "breath" itself. And, if we use these facts as an analogy, then the "psuchee" is the body with the "spirit" inside, an "animated creature," while the "pneuma" is the "spirit" within that creature's body that goes on to be with the Lord at the death of its body.

What "substance" might that be, by the way? A "substance" is material, and I KNOW you don't mean that! No, there is more of a difference between "soul" and "spirit" than you are supposing, and you are changing the truth of God's Word into a lie when YOU say that God "breathed the soul into the man Adam." That's NOT what the Scriptures say! Not in English and not in Hebrew! God did NOT breathe "Adam's soul into flesh"; He breathed the "BREATH" into Adam's flesh, and Adam "BECAME a living soul!" The idea of one's "soul" IS partly about the flesh of his body but it is also about the "spirit" within that body and how they come together to make a living person! We can see that in the Greek of the NT when we look at 1 Corinthians 15:45, as well:

1 Corinthians 15:45
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul (psucheen zoosan); the last Adam was made a quickening spirit (pneuma zoo-opoioun).
KJV


Pros Korinthious A 15:45
45 Houtoos kai gegraptai, "Egeneto ho prootos anthroopos Adam eis psucheen zoosan"; ho eschatos Adam eis pneuma zoo-opoioun.
The Greek New Testament, United Bible Societies


"Egeneto ho anthroopos eis psucheen zoosan" literally translates to "Was made the man into a-soul/breather living." So, even in the Greek here the man Adam was made into a living soul, a living breather!

Now, you also brought up Genesis 6:3; however, you are looking at a particular translation of the Hebrew which is somewhat misleading (at least, it misled you):

Genesis 6:3
3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
KJV


Bree'shiyt 6:3
3 Vayo'mer YHWH, "Lo' yaadown ruwchiy baa'aadaam l`olaam bshaggam huw' baasaar; vhaayuw yaamaayv mee'aah v`esriym shaanaah:"
JPS Hebrew-English Tanakh, Jewish Publication Society


3 Vayo'mer = 3 And-said
YHWH, = YaHuWH/ADONAI/LORD
"Lo' = "Not
yaadown = shall-strive
ruwchiy = my-Spirit
baa'aadaam = in-man
l`olaam = to-vanishing-point
bshaggam = in-straying/sinning
huw' = he
baasaar; = flesh;
vhaayuw = and-shall-be
yaamaayv = his-days
mee'aah = a-hundred
v`esriym = and-twenty
shaanaah:" = years:"

3 And-said YaHuWH/ADONAI/LORD "Not shall-strive my-Spirit in-man to-vanishing-point in-straying/sinning he [is] flesh; and-shall-be his-days a-hundred and-twenty years:"

Now, what happened to your word "also?" IT'S NOT THERE!

I Kings 17:20-22
20 And he cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, hast Thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son?
21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, "O LORD my God, I pray Thee, let this child's soul come into him again."
22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.
(KJV)

That word for "soul" (Hebrew nephesh) there in 1 Kings 17 is the same Hebrew word for "soul" as in Gen.2:7. Yet that 1 Kings 17 Scripture is clear that that child's soul (nephesh) left its flesh body.

That is the same meaning as Greek psuche in Matt.10:28 above. In the Matt.10:28 Scripture, Jesus is revealing to us that our flesh body can be killed and perish apart from our 'soul'.

Well, not exactly. Again, to be that picky, one MUST look at the Hebrew:

Mlaakhiym A 17:20-22
20 Vayiqraa' el YHWH vayo'mar, "YHWH Elohaay hagam `al haa'almaanaah asher aniy mitgowreer `imaah haree`owtaa lhaamiyt et bnaah?"
21 Vayitmodeed `al hayeled shaalosh p`aamiym vayiqraa' el YHWH vayo'mar, "YHWH Elohaay, taashaav naa' nefesh hayeled hazeh `al qirbow."
22 Vayishma` YHWH bqowl Eeliyaahuw vataashaav nefesh hayeled `al qirbow vayechiy.
JPS Hebrew-English Tanakh, Jewish Publication Society


20 Vayiqraa' = 20 And-he-cried-out
el = to
YHWH = YaHuWH/ADONAI/LORD
vayo'mar, = and-said,
"YHWH = "YaHuWH/ADONAI/LORD
Elohaay = my-God
hagam = also
`al = against/upon
haa'almaanaah = the-widow
asher = whom
aniy = I
mitgowreer = lodge
`imaah = with-(her)
haree`owtaa = hast-Thou-spoiled
lhaamiyt = to-the-killing
et = (direct object follows)
bnaah?" = of-her-son?"
21 Vayitmodeed = 21 And-he-extended-himself
`al = against/upon
hayeled = the-boy
shaalosh = three
p`aamiym = strokes
vayiqraa' = and-cried-out
el = to
YHWH = YaHuWH/ADONAI/LORD
vayo'mar, = and-said,
"YHWH = "YaHuWH/ADONAI/LORD
Elohaay, = my-God,
taashaav = turn-back/retreat
naa' = now
nefesh = a-soul/breather/life
hayeled = of-the-boy
hazeh = this-one
`al = against/upon
qirbow." = his-battle."
22 Vayishma` = 22 And-heard
YHWH = YaHuWH/ADONAI/LORD
bqowl = in-calling-aloud
Eeliyaahuw = Eliyahu/Elijah
vataashaav = and-turned-back/retreated
nefesh = a-soul/breather/life
hayeled = of-the-boy
`al = against/upon
qirbow = his-battle
vayechiy. = and-he-lived.

20 And-he-cried-out to YaHuWH/ADONAI/LORD and-said, "YaHuWH/ADONAI/LORD my-God also against/upon the-widow whom I lodge with-(her) hast-Thou-spoiled to-the-killing (direct object follows) of-her-son?"
21 And-he-extended-himself against/upon the-boy three strokes and-cried-out to YaHuWH/ADONAI/LORD and-said, "YaHuWH/ADONAI/LORD my-God, turn-back/retreat now a-soul/breather/life of-the-boy this-one against/upon his-battle."
22 And-heard YaHuWH/ADONAI/LORD in-calling-aloud Eliyahu/Elijah and-turned-back/retreated a-soul/breather/life of-the-boy against/upon his-battle and-he-lived.

I don't need Greek lessons from you, thank you. I'm well aware of that the KJV word "hell" is 3 different Greek words in the NT manuscripts, and I'm aware of their Greek origin and ancient meanings. That certainly does not prove your theory that God's Heavenly Abode is out in the galaxies somewhere in the universe.

Good! I'm GLAD you don't! (And, you're welcome.) Then, don't think of these as lessons on Greek but rather as lessons on ATTENTION TO DETAIL. Just don't forget, while you're forming your opinions on prophecy and eschatology, to what "hell" might refer, and take the initiative to look up WHICH "hell" the verse it talking about!

I'm not saying that God is limited to this Universe in any way; HOWEVER, I AM saying that what people CALL "God's Heavenly Abode" or "Heaven" is really just the New Jerusalem, and that the New Jerusalem IS within our galaxy, close enough that it won't take too much time to get here, and far enough away that if it can be seen at all, it would be mistaken for a star (and I believe a RED star because jasper is the "blood flecks" of the bloodstone or heliotrope). Again, this is because Hebrews 12:22 calls it "Ierousaleem epouranioo," "Jerusalem from-above-the-sky," using the SAME GREEK WORD that is used in 1 Corinthians 15:40-41 for the "soomata epourania," "celestial bodies," such as the sun, moon, and stars!

It's really not that far-fetched nor is it unbiblical. So, why be a nay-sayer all the time?