"the" seven angels/ no trumps sound in Revelation 8

[goforit/leap]

John wrote in a way that shows Revelation 8 is only
where the story is told, so the events of the seven trumpets
happened earlier.

saw four beasts...sees them again, then John uses the definite article.

Time after time, John leaves out "the" if he is seeing or hearing an action or
character in the visions for the first time.


So when did John first watch the set of seven angels?
These angels seal the 144,000. Afterwards, they return to stand before God
and announce the numbers they set a mark on to be protected.

saw the seven angels,
which stood before God

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Your threads are not making sense to a point that I'm seeing.
2 threads so far aside from your defence of MD and I'm clueless to your thoughts on the book of Revelation.

 

[ewq1938]

Time after time, John leaves out "the" if he is seeing or hearing an action or
character in the visions for the first time.

Can you show these many examples?

 

[Randy Kluth]

John wrote in a way that shows Revelation 8 is only
where the story is told, so the events of the seven trumpets
happened earlier.

saw four beasts...sees them again, then John uses the definite article.

Time after time, John leaves out "the" if he is seeing or hearing an action or
character in the visions for the first time.


So when did John first watch the set of seven angels?
These angels seal the 144,000. Afterwards, they return to stand before God
and announce the numbers they set a mark on to be protected.

saw the seven angels,
which stood before God

The real issue, for me, is that we should see the Apocalypse as an unfolding of a series of visions--not a single vision. It has a single narrative, but that narrative is told in a non-chronological way through a series of visions. The visions take place in a chronological order only in the sense that John saw each vision, one after the other.

But the visions he sees may be disconnected from one another, flashing back in time in one vision, or repeating Christ's Coming a number of times in different visions. The visions do not all represent a single chronological sequence if several of the visions repeat the same event describing it in different ways.

Once an idea is introduced then a future part of the narrative may refer to it as "the thing that had already been mentioned." One can mention an earlier vision without attributing to it a particular time in an overarching singular sequence.

The time sequence is really just the order in which the visions are given, and not necessarily a chronological order. The "thing referred to" is the thing seen in an earlier vision, and not necessarily an earlier event in time.

 

[goforit/leap]

Your threads are not making sense to a point that I'm seeing.
2 threads so far aside from your defence of MD and I'm clueless to your thoughts on the book of Revelation.

As John reveals the characters and subjects in the Book of Revelation, he introduces us to them.

Revelation 4:1
"After this I looked, and, behold, a door..."

John did not say, "the door", so it is the first time that he sees it,
and tells us about it.

4:2
"And immediately...a throne...in heaven...on the throne..."

John used the definite article only after he first had already marked
the starting time of this throne was first seen by him.

Using this pattern in the entire Book, then Revelation 8:2 was not when
he first told us about the set of seven angels.

"And I saw the seven angels..."

John was seeing that same set again, for a new job, but the seven
trumpets angels role had ended. The pouring of the seven vials full of
God's wrath soon begins! It will be done by the already sounded the seven
trumpets group of angels.


silence in heaven
return of the seven angels
time for the pouring of the first full vial

 

[goforit/leap]

Can you show these many examples?

Revelation

1:10
" I was in the Spirit...and heard...a great voice..."
1:12
"And I turned...the voice..."
1:12
"...that spake with me...saw seven golden candlesticks;"
1:13
"And...the seven candlesticks..."
1:16
"And he had...seven stars..."
1:20
"The mystery of the seven stars...the seven golden candlesticks...."

4:6
"And before the throne...a sea of glass...four beasts..."
4:8
"And the four beasts..."

 

[goforit/leap]

The real issue, for me, is that we should see the Apocalypse as an unfolding of a series of visions--not a single vision. It has a single narrative, but that narrative is told in a non-chronological way through a series of visions. The visions take place in a chronological order only in the sense that John saw each vision, one after the other.

It is filled with many visions, we agree! The visions in the mystery section are not in the same order
that they were shown to John. John was writing the events, then was told about the "mystery of God".
John shows how the visions flow along by using "after", "after this", and other ways.

Rev. 4:1
"After this...

Rev. 5:2
"And I saw a strong angel..."

10:1
"And I saw another mighty angel..."

We can also watch for the actions by the types of angels, such as if John saw
them flying.

 

[goforit/leap]

What did John see in Rev. 7?

He saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth.

He saw angels rising out of the East.

What did they do?

They carried the seven trumpet plagues and delivered them to the
set of four angels.
to whom were given
ways to hurt/ harm

the earth, sea, and trees
(as in-the seven trumpet harms)

 

[goforit/leap]

What happens after the plagues for the harms have been
given to the four angels?

the angels that ascended from the east/

Those angels go about sealing the 144,000 of the tribes
of Israel.

What takes place after the sealing project ends?

The sealing angels...7...return to heaven, and stand before God.

Why?

Because they will announce/ report the numbers that they sealed
for protection from the soon trouble.

 

[strepho]

Thread doesn't make much sense to me.
The seals are not in chronological order.
The trumps are order.
Were in the third seal. Inflation.
Were in the 5th trump.
I know what I'm talking about. I studied under pastor Arnold murray and dennis for 22 years.

The first 4 trumps align with zechariah chapter 1, the 4 horns.
Its education system, economic, political and religion. It's 4 agencies. These are the 4 horns and 4 trumps of revelation chapter 8.

Zechariah chapter 1 and revelation chapter 8 have correlation.
Satan as antichrist will come 6th trump.

The 4 horns/ first 4 trumps are evolving the one world political system. It's all nations in one world political system.

This political system receives deadly wound near future. Satan as antichrist heals deadly wound at the 6th trump. Its 5 month period.
Revelation chapter 13.

 

[Zao is life]

As John reveals the characters and subjects in the Book of Revelation, he introduces us to them.

Revelation 4:1
"After this I looked, and, behold, a door..."

John did not say, "the door", so it is the first time that he sees it,
and tells us about it.

4:2
"And immediately...a throne...in heaven...on the throne..."

John used the definite article only after he first had already marked
the starting time of this throne was first seen by him.

Using this pattern in the entire Book, then Revelation 8:2 was not when
he first told us about the set of seven angels.

"And I saw the seven angels..."

John was seeing that same set again, for a new job, but the seven
trumpets angels role had ended. The pouring of the seven vials full of
God's wrath soon begins! It will be done by the already sounded the seven
trumpets group of angels.


silence in heaven
return of the seven angels
time for the pouring of the first full vial

It's difficult to follow what you are saying, though the little I can follow, 'sounds' like you have seen/noticed something about the language difference between for example "a throne" when it's first introduced and "the throne" when it's mentioned again, and "seven angels" when they are first introduced, and "the seven angels" when they are spoken about again.

You seem to be saying that it explains, or goes a long way to explain the "when" of whatever is being written about, is happening.

But I need to be spoon-fed and you're expressing the understanding you already have in your mind without adequately putting it into English, text-book style, as in fact A leads to fact B leads to fact C because what you have said so far is almost as 'cryptic' as the Revelation itself (because I need to be spoon-fed). So this isn't a criticism but a request for you to do a Fact A leads to Fact B leads to Fact C.

@goforit/leap I added this: So far you mentioned something about the voices, thunderings and lightnings, and I'm not sure whether or not what you see below is what you mean:

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, "which God gave to Him to declare to His servants things which must shortly come to pass" (Rev.1:1), is saturated with types and anti-types so that His saints, i.e those who have ears to hear what He is saying, will understand. So let's look at the biblical type of the 7th seal: Joshua 6:1-20

There were seven priests blowing seven trumpets when the walls of Jericho fell, and they fell when the 7th trumpet sounded, the 7th time the Israelite tribes marched around the city, on the 7th of 7 days.

I believe this is why we see the seven angels with seven trumpets when the seventh seal has been opened, and "the cities of the nations fell" when the seventh of seven angels poured out his bowl of wrath.

"And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.". (Revelation 8:6).

The seven angels have been appointed to carry out God's judgment:

"Voices, thunderings, Lightnings, and an earthquake"

The door that had been opened in heaven for John immediately before he was made aware of the scroll's existence, allowed John to be able to see the throne of God, so that he could be shown the scroll (which was still sealed with seven seals), and John saw "lightnings and thunderings and voices" coming out from the throne (Revelation 4:5).

We read of "voices, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake" when God speaks: We see it in Exodus 20:18, we see it used in poetic form by David in 2 Samuel 22:14-15, and we see it again in the seventh seal, the seventh trumpet, and the seventh plague or bowl of wrath:



And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air. And a great voice came out of the temple of Heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done! -- Rev 16:17

And He said to me, It is done. I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who thirsts I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely.
He who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son. But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death. -- Rev 21:6-8​

 

[goforit/leap]

It's difficult to follow what you are saying, though the little I can follow, 'sounds' like you have seen/noticed something about the language difference between for example "a throne" when it's first introduced and "the throne" when it's mentioned again, and "seven angels" when they are first introduced, and "the seven angels" when they are spoken about again.

You seem to be saying that it explains, or goes a long way to explain the "when" of whatever is being written about, is happening.

But I need to be spoon-fed and you're expressing the understanding you already have in your mind without adequately putting it into English, text-book style, as in fact A leads to fact B leads to fact C because what you have said so far is almost as 'cryptic' as the Revelation itself.​

Revelation 15:1
"And I saw another sign in heaven...seven angels..."
15:7
"And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels..."

John saw - another sign, so at least one other sign in heaven must
be placed ahead of this one on the overall timeline of events. He saw
-the four beasts, so we know that the scene in Rev. 4 happens first, because
that is where John marked his first point of them.

Rev. 4:6 KJV
"And before the throne...a sea...in the midst of the throne, and round about the
throne were four beasts..."

What I'm wanting us to study is that Rev. 15:1 was actually written by John before he
ever saw the time of Rev. 8:2.

Rev. 15:1 refers to -another sign in heaven

So, let's find the very first one that John had revealed to him.

Rev. 12:1
"And there appeared a great wonder in heaven..."
Rev, 12:3
And...appeared another wonder in heaven..."
Rev. 15:1
"And I saw another sign in heaven...seven angels..."

This was all shown to John before he ever had the things in Rev. 8
shown to him. Revelation 8:2 has - John referring to that set as now
-the seven angels.

Why is this section of Revelation jumbled with hidden parts? Because
John had to make a mystery that ends at the time of the 7th trumpet.

the mystery of God

This will finish as was declared to the prophets. It will end early. God will
repent...call back some of the trouble that was to take place.

Rev. 10:7
"But in the days of voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to
sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his
servants the prophets."

In this chapter, John will take and eat a little book. This little book is where
we get the final chapters of Revelation from, and it was not made into a mystery.
John was told that he was to prophesy again - must prophesy again, and later told
not to seal the sayings in Rev. 22:10.

seal not the sayings
- this book//referring to the little book that John ate with prophecy contained in it

 

[Zao is life]

Revelation 15:1
"And I saw another sign in heaven...seven angels..."
15:7
"And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels..."

John saw - another sign, so at least one other sign in heaven must
be placed ahead of this one on the overall timeline of events. He saw
-the four beasts, so we know that the scene in Rev. 4 happens first, because
that is where John marked his first point of them.

Rev. 4:6 KJV
"And before the throne...a sea...in the midst of the throne, and round about the
throne were four beasts..."

What I'm wanting us to study is that Rev. 15:1 was actually written by John before he
ever saw the time of Rev. 8:2.

Rev. 15:1 refers to -another sign in heaven

So, let's find the very first one that John had revealed to him.

Rev. 12:1
"And there appeared a great wonder in heaven..."
Rev, 12:3
And...appeared another wonder in heaven..."
Rev. 15:1
"And I saw another sign in heaven...seven angels..."

This was all shown to John before he ever had the things in Rev. 8
shown to him. Revelation 8:2 has - John referring to that set as now
-the seven angels.

Why is this section of Revelation jumbled with hidden parts? Because
John had to make a mystery that ends at the time of the 7th trumpet.

the mystery of God

This will finish as was declared to the prophets. It will end early. God will
repent...call back some of the trouble that was to take place.

Rev. 10:7
"But in the days of voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to
sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his
servants the prophets."

In this chapter, John will take and eat a little book. This little book is where
we get the final chapters of Revelation from, and it was not made into a mystery.
John was told that he was to prophesy again - must prophesy again, and later told
not to seal the sayings in Rev. 22:10.

seal not the sayings
- this book//referring to the little book that John ate with prophecy contained in it

What the seven thunders uttered are only one part of the Revelation, and the only part that John was told to seal. The only mystery.

Revelation 12 -13 is telling us about the spiritual reality behind all the things taking place in the earth from the time Jesus ascended until the time the dragon gives the beast his seat and power and great authority. There were no chapter and verse divisions in the Revelation until 1227 A.D. Added for our benefit, but not part of the text. Some things do not belong in the chapter they appear in, for example Revelation 19:1-4 belongs with Revelation 18.

Revelation 15 is introducing another aspect of the seven last judgments of God being poured upon the earth. There are parallels in the Revelation. John couldn't have seen every aspect of God's judgments all at once. So he sees it in stages. Different aspects of the same final seven judgments carried out by the same seven angels.

Personally I believe that the more any of us tries to unscramble the Revelation the more we scramble it - until the mystery of God is finished immediately before the 7th trumpet sounds and we know what the seven thunders uttered.

@goforit/leap Added: That doesn't mean I think we should not study the Revelation and ask God to give us the discernment and understanding of it and the wisdom we lack. I believe that Jesus wants us all to study it because He wants all those who will hear His voice to know immediately that what is taking place is what was written in the Revelation, when it comes. We will all understand when we need to, and we will all agree - i.e those who belong to Him and none who have fallen away or fallen into the error of false prophets and teachers.​

 

[goforit/leap]

Thread doesn't make much sense to me.
The seals are not in chronological order.
The trumps are order.
Were in the third seal. Inflation.
Were in the 5th trump.
I know what I'm talking about. I studied under pastor Arnold murray and dennis for 22 years.

The first 4 trumps align with zechariah chapter 1, the 4 horns.
Its education system, economic, political and religion. It's 4 agencies. These are the 4 horns and 4 trumps of revelation chapter 8.

Shinar Zechariah chapter 1 and revelation chapter 8 have correlation.
Satan as antichrist will come 6th trump.

The 4 horns/ first 4 trumps are evolving the one world political system. It's all nations in one world political system.

This political system receives deadly wound near future. Satan as antichrist heals deadly wound at the 6th trump. Its 5 month period.
Revelation chapter 13.

Zechariah 5 shows the land of Shinar is cursed, but first she will again rise to power.

The roll that he sees flying over the earth is hunting for the location that earned the curse.
To have this curse unfold, it first needs to enter into a house - a place made of timber and
stones-just like the holy house of God was made in Jerusalem before Babylon burned it.

He soon sees a house is going to be built in the land of Shinar.
This is the kingdom of the past that earned the curse which
is written on the roll. After the house is built, as in the throne - the kingdom
is here again in the end days, then the curse to one day consume it will enter
into the house.
Shinar/Babylon earned this curse roll that has the same dimensions
as the past entrance to the holy temple of God that was destroyed by
Nebuchadnezzar.
The prophecy is how there are two mountains of brass.
the north country and the south country

Babylon and Egypt from the times of the brass -latter times of
the former Greek kingdom.

 

[goforit/leap]

Zechariah chapters 4, 5, 6 all were given at one time.

chapter 5

v1"Then I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a
flying roll."

This roll is the dimensions that are also found for the former
temple of God in Jerusalem as the porch. Nebuchadnezzar
the former king of Babylon crossed this porch and has brought
this roll searching for his throne, kingdom = house.

The scene is - Babylon already fell to Persia.

v2"And he said unto me, What seest thou...I answered...a flying roll.
..length twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits."

v3"Then said he unto me, This is the curse that goeth forth..."

1 Kings 6:3
""And the porch before the temple of the house, twenty cubits was the length
...ten cubits was the breadth..."

Zechariah 5

So, a curse with the dimensions of the porch =entrance to
the temple that Solomon built to God is going about the earth - flying
to where? It is looking for where to drop that curse roll.

v4
"I will bring it forth...it shall enter into the house of him...shall consume
it with the timber thereof..."

The prophecy vision is foretelling the fall of a specific kingdom in
the future.

The vision continues to reveal that a house will be built in the land of
Shinar...as in Babylon will rise again.

v11"And he said unto me, To build it an house in the land of Shinar..."

 

[goforit/leap]

When holy things were built, we find a phrase such as - "build ye the sanctuary".
Moses made holy items with his people, and this meant that there would need to be
a freewill offering from the people of Israel/the Hebrews. Solomon was in charge
of the temple to God, and David told his princes to "build ye the sanctuary". Lots of
items would have been willingly given by the people of Israel, but Solomon only
saw value in counting gold. We find a time of Solomon gained 666 talents of gold. It
lists many sources where this money did not come from.

What happened after Belshazzar sinned against God by wickedly using
the holy vessels? Daniel 5 tells how Belshazzar was put on the balances.
He was weighed for his sin. He was found wanting - as in the number for him could
not be found, because Solomon never weighed those vessels.
Eccl. 1:15 tells how when something is wanting - lacking, it can't
be numbered.

Ecclesiastes 1:15
"...that which is wanting cannot be numbered."

Daniel 5:27
."..weighed in the balances, and art found wanting."

 

[rwb]

What did John see in Rev. 7?

He saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth.

He saw angels rising out of the East.

What did they do?

They carried the seven trumpet plagues and delivered them to the
set of four angels.
to whom were given
ways to hurt/ harm

the earth, sea, and trees
(as in-the seven trumpet harms)

Revelation 7:1-5 (KJV) And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

With greater context we can better understand the message John is conveying through this vision. The four angels John is shown at the four corners of the earth are "holding the four winds of the earth, that the WIND should not blow..." What does this symbolism represent? You leave out so much context, and then add your own opinion to the text that it makes your understanding impossible to follow. For instance, where in the text can we find angel(s) rising out of the east? John writes that he "saw another ANGEL ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God..." Four angels are commissioned to keep the wind from blowing upon the entirety of the earth (four corners), while ANOTHER angel ascends from the east with the seal of the living God.

Why is the WIND prevented from blowing upon the whole earth until after the 144,000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel are sealed? Who or what does the "wind" represent/symbolize? Without understanding of the wind, how can we possibly come to the correct understanding of John's words describing the vision?

In the book of Acts 2 when describing what occurred at Pentecost the universal outpouring of the Holy Spirit is described as "a rushing mighty wind." Before Pentecost the Spirit had not been sent to be in people of faith. How might having this information on the timing of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon ALL flesh be helpful in understanding the timing of the vision John describes in Rev 7?

 

[goforit/leap]

Is there a way to easily add Bible verses here or type a certain way to
link to them being displayed?

 

[goforit/leap]

Revelation 7:1-5 (KJV) And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of

"And after these things"...The "things" term is referring to other visions.
John is showing the starting point for a new fresh vision of scenes. New visions
can begin at any point on a timeline of the past, present, or the future. We don't want
to see this next part as being events that occur as part of the end of
the 6th seal.

Rev. 4:1
"After this I looked..."

Rev. 15:5
"After that..." not - these

Rev. 18:1
"And after these things..."
Rev. 19:1
"And after these things..."

"saw four angels"
John just then sees this specific group of angels for the first time///in the overall visions shown
to him up to this point.

 

[goforit/leap]

four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east

Take the part "four corners" and open the Bible to Ezekiel 7:1

Rev. 7 and Ezekiel 7 are about times of trouble, when the end was near upon a place.
Ezekiel 7- the end has come the four corners of the land of Israel. It will lead to God
will hide His face and send the worst of the heathen (Babylon) to destroy Jerusalem.

Rev, 6:16

"...hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne..."



6th seal - God shows His face

Rev. 7 steps back in time to reveal why He will first hide His face from Israel and
punish her.