Amen kaoticprofit
These guys think they know more than Jude and Peter.
Who were eye witnesses.
Bloodlines of the Nephilim - A Biblical Study
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Amen kaoticprofit
These guys think they know more than Jude and Peter.
Who were eye witnesses.
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, "Son of Man."
"EYE-WITNESSES?!!" Do you really believe that? So, Jude (Y'hudah) and Simon Peter (Shim`own Kefa) were THERE?!!! The Bible hasn't been in existence THAT long that the authors of the Bible would have been present before the Flood!
I'm opening this up to all reading:
Guys (and ladies), TIME is a crucial factor to consider when interpreting the Bible. It is not irrelevant! Knowing who wrote a particular book of the Bible and when that occurred are key elements to contemplate when trying to understand what God was intending for us to know. The world is not 2D, but it is also not just 3D! There is a fourth dimension - the dimension of time! Today, we have GPS devices, Global Positioning System devices, that use satellite information and positions to determine exact coordinates (within a certain degree of acceptable error) of locations on the earth. Typically, that's a 2-dimensional system.
However, I'm sure there is a system in place (although we don't hear much about it, yet) that uses triangulation between satellites to a particular location that can estimate if not pin-point where that position is located vertically, as well. It may involve sophisticated links to local weather radar to enhance the information, but that would be a 3-dimensional, Global Positioning System.
Most people don't think about it this much, but if you will consider that certain other rules of physics are involved, such as no two solid objects can occupy the same place at the same time, EVERY THING has it's own "global position!" However, that global position changes for creatures like mankind and animals over a length of time because we MOVE from place to place. Even long-lived plants such as trees have a "global position," and God knows where everything is! But, although trees don't generally move from where they are rooted, trees come and go in TIME, just as do other created beings. They have a "birth" from acorn or nut or seed, they live in one particular area, growing larger there, and then they die, whether by rot and decay or by natural disaster such as a forest fire or by human intervention such as a war or a building project. While they live, they have a "global position" that is just as "permanent" as that of a mountain. Even mountains might change over the course of very long time periods or by the leveling effects of human intervention such as the use of explosives to make a highway. The point I'm making here is that TIME is also a factor that should really be considered when looking at a true 4-dimensional, Global Positioning System.
The development of the Bible is the same way. It has CHANGED over the course of the last 5000 years or so. It started with just the verbal communications of history passed from one individual to another. Then, when writing was developed, Moshe (Moses) wrote that history down within the book of Beree'shiyt (Genesis) along with his more immediate history of the Exodus of the Isra'elites from Egypt in the rest of the Torah (the Pentateuch). The history continued in the books of Joshua and then Judges and then Ruth. The history continued in the books of 1 and 2 Samu'el and then 1 and 2 Kings, and all of this history was then supplemented by the synopsis of 1 and 2 Chronicles. That takes us through the destruction of the first Temple and the beginning of the Captivity of the Southern Kingdom of "Y'hudah (Judah)" under Bavel (Babylon). The history is then recorded for us in bits and pieces through the prophets, such as Yirmeyahu (Jeremiah) and Yesha`yahu (Isaiah) and Dani'el and Esther, and then continues in the Return to the Land in the books of Nehemiah and Ezra. Ezra finishes a little while after the completion of the Temple (which I believe occurred in 418 B.C., not 516-515 B.C.). We are only given prophecies of anything after that time period in the Tanakh (the OT).
The history picks back up in the NT in the last remaining years of Herod the Great with the Gospels and continues through the book of Acts until 2 years after Paul arrived in Rome, around 61 A.D. Other works were written at periods somewhat later, but one can only glean bits and pieces of history after that. Revelation itself is a book on prophecy that was said to be written to certain churches in Asia Minor during the persecutions of Nero (A.D. 37-68) or Domitian (A.D. 81-96). Therefore, the date of its writing depends on which of these persecutions you believe the churches in chapters 2 and 3 were currently suffering. Thus, the Bible is finished in its writing in either circa 68 A.D. or circa 96 A.D.
So, if Moses wrote the first five books before his death in 1451 B.C., then the Bible took more than 1,500 years to write but probably no more than 1,550 years.
Jude was written AFTER Peter's death and before the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. in the mid to late 60s A.D. The epistles of Peter were also written in the 60s, but earlier than Jude. So HOW were they CONTEMPORARIES as "EYE WITNESSES" with the nefaliym of Genesis 6?! HOW could they be CONTEMPORARIES with the nefaliym of Numbers 13 called "sons of Anak"?! HOW could they even be CONTEMPORARIES as "EYE WITNESSES" with the giants from whom came Golyat (Goliath) whom David fought and killed?!
Shalom, kaoticprofit.
Typically, true "giants," such as Golyat (Goliath) whom David fought and killed, are victims of pituitary malfunctions. Some of those malfunctions may be caused by genetics; some may be caused by a benign tumor on the pituitary gland, but in either case, the growth hormone is excessively provided during the growth periods before maturity and a person may become as tall as a normal man (5' 9" in the U.S., which is about 2" taller than the international average) as early as the age of 10. If they continue to grow quickly during growth spurts, a person, like Robert Pershing Wadlow, could reach heights of 8' 11.1" (almost 9') and 491 pounds! If the growth hormone is absent or severely limited, a person, like Gul Mohammed, may grow only to a height of 1' 10.4" and 37.5 pounds!
Golyat was said to be "six cubits and a span" in height. If a cubit is 21 inches and a span is 8 inches, that would be a height of 6(21) + 8 = 135 inches or 11' 3"; however, that's a big "IF!" This is assuming the royal cubit and span. However a normal reach, the common cubit, is 18 inches, and a normal span is only about 6 inches. this would make his height more to be 6(18) + 6 = 114 inches or 9' 6". It really depends on who is doing the measuring, because a "cubit" is the length of the forearm from the elbow to the tip of the middle finger and the "span" in the length of the hand from the tip of the baby finger to the tip of the first finger when the hand is spread out, leaving the thumb free for holding things. Builders just needed a convenient way to measure distances using their own body parts to determine shorter lengths. If we use the normal, shorter cubit, 9' 6" is only 7" taller than the tallest man on modern record. If the measurer was somewhat shorter having only a 17-inch cubit and a 5-inch span, we would have a measurement comparable to the tallest man on modern record, because 6(17) + 5 = 107 inches or 8' 11".
People like to exaggerate and embellish their stories. Just look at the history of the Western U.S. during the 1700s and 1800s: Stories like Paul Bunyan, Pecos Bill, and John Henry grew to outrageous proportions (and last we heard of these men they were still growing)! Even real famous characters, such as Daniel Boone, Sam Houston, and Davy Crocket, had some WHOPPERS told about them that continued to grow while they lived and served the new United States of America.
The conclusion is this: Big and tall people are not so unusual as to require the intervention of "angelic breeding" (as if there were such a thing). Furthermore, the term "nefaliym" is NOT referring to a "race" of people that no longer exist. The word simply refers to the OCCUPATION of a tree FELLER, a lumberjack! And, stories like Paul Bunyan probably grew from ACTUAL huge, strong men who gravitated to the profession. It gave them the ability to make a good living from their size advantage. The problem in Genesis 6:1-8 is NOT that they were "angel-born," but that they were TYRANTS - BULLIES - and God would not put up with it, giving them 120 years to make amends or suffer the consequences.
"EYE-WITNESSES?!!" Do you really believe that? So, Jude (Y'hudah) and Simon Peter (Shim`own Kefa) were THERE?!!! The Bible hasn't been in existence THAT long that the authors of the Bible would have been present before the Flood!
I'm opening this up to all reading:
Guys (and ladies), TIME is a crucial factor to consider when interpreting the Bible. It is not irrelevant! Knowing who wrote a particular book of the Bible and when that occurred are key elements to contemplate when trying to understand what God was intending for us to know. The world is not 2D, but it is also not just 3D! There is a fourth dimension - the dimension of time! Today, we have GPS devices, Global Positioning System devices, that use satellite information and positions to determine exact coordinates (within a certain degree of acceptable error) of locations on the earth. Typically, that's a 2-dimensional system.
However, I'm sure there is a system in place (although we don't hear much about it, yet) that uses triangulation between satellites to a particular location that can estimate if not pin-point where that position is located vertically, as well. It may involve sophisticated links to local weather radar to enhance the information, but that would be a 3-dimensional, Global Positioning System.
Most people don't think about it this much, but if you will consider that certain other rules of physics are involved, such as no two solid objects can occupy the same place at the same time, EVERY THING has it's own "global position!" However, that global position changes for creatures like mankind and animals over a length of time because we MOVE from place to place. Even long-lived plants such as trees have a "global position," and God knows where everything is! But, although trees don't generally move from where they are rooted, trees come and go in TIME, just as do other created beings. They have a "birth" from acorn or nut or seed, they live in one particular area, growing larger there, and then they die, whether by rot and decay or by natural disaster such as a forest fire or by human intervention such as a war or a building project. While they live, they have a "global position" that is just as "permanent" as that of a mountain. Even mountains might change over the course of very long time periods or by the leveling effects of human intervention such as the use of explosives to make a highway. The point I'm making here is that TIME is also a factor that should really be considered when looking at a true 4-dimensional, Global Positioning System.
The development of the Bible is the same way. It has CHANGED over the course of the last 5000 years or so. It started with just the verbal communications of history passed from one individual to another. Then, when writing was developed, Moshe (Moses) wrote that history down within the book of Beree'shiyt (Genesis) along with his more immediate history of the Exodus of the Isra'elites from Egypt in the rest of the Torah (the Pentateuch). The history continued in the books of Joshua and then Judges and then Ruth. The history continued in the books of 1 and 2 Samu'el and then 1 and 2 Kings, and all of this history was then supplemented by the synopsis of 1 and 2 Chronicles. That takes us through the destruction of the first Temple and the beginning of the Captivity of the Southern Kingdom of "Y'hudah (Judah)" under Bavel (Babylon). The history is then recorded for us in bits and pieces through the prophets, such as Yirmeyahu (Jeremiah) and Yesha`yahu (Isaiah) and Dani'el and Esther, and then continues in the Return to the Land in the books of Nehemiah and Ezra. Ezra finishes a little while after the completion of the Temple (which I believe occurred in 418 B.C., not 516-515 B.C.). We are only given prophecies of anything after that time period in the Tanakh (the OT).
The history picks back up in the NT in the last remaining years of Herod the Great with the Gospels and continues through the book of Acts until 2 years after Paul arrived in Rome, around 61 A.D. Other works were written at periods somewhat later, but one can only glean bits and pieces of history after that. Revelation itself is a book on prophecy that was said to be written to certain churches in Asia Minor during the persecutions of Nero (A.D. 37-68) or Domitian (A.D. 81-96). Therefore, the date of its writing depends on which of these persecutions you believe the churches in chapters 2 and 3 were currently suffering. Thus, the Bible is finished in its writing in either circa 68 A.D. or circa 96 A.D.
So, if Moses wrote the first five books before his death in 1451 B.C., then the Bible took more than 1,500 years to write but probably no more than 1,550 years.
Jude was written AFTER Peter's death and before the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. in the mid to late 60s A.D. The epistles of Peter were also written in the 60s, but earlier than Jude. So HOW were they CONTEMPORARIES as "EYE WITNESSES" with the nefaliym of Genesis 6?! HOW could they be CONTEMPORARIES with the nefaliym of Numbers 13 called "sons of Anak"?! HOW could they even be CONTEMPORARIES as "EYE WITNESSES" with the giants from whom came Golyat (Goliath) whom David fought and killed?!
Shalom, kaoticprofit.
Typically, true "giants," such as Golyat (Goliath) whom David fought and killed, are victims of pituitary malfunctions. Some of those malfunctions may be caused by genetics; some may be caused by a benign tumor on the pituitary gland, but in either case, the growth hormone is excessively provided during the growth periods before maturity and a person may become as tall as a normal man (5' 9" in the U.S., which is about 2" taller than the international average) as early as the age of 10. If they continue to grow quickly during growth spurts, a person, like Robert Pershing Wadlow, could reach heights of 8' 11.1" (almost 9') and 491 pounds! If the growth hormone is absent or severely limited, a person, like Gul Mohammed, may grow only to a height of 1' 10.4" and 37.5 pounds!
Golyat was said to be "six cubits and a span" in height. If a cubit is 21 inches and a span is 8 inches, that would be a height of 6(21) + 8 = 135 inches or 11' 3"; however, that's a big "IF!" This is assuming the royal cubit and span. However a normal reach, the common cubit, is 18 inches, and a normal span is only about 6 inches. this would make his height more to be 6(18) + 6 = 114 inches or 9' 6". It really depends on who is doing the measuring, because a "cubit" is the length of the forearm from the elbow to the tip of the middle finger and the "span" in the length of the hand from the tip of the baby finger to the tip of the first finger when the hand is spread out, leaving the thumb free for holding things. Builders just needed a convenient way to measure distances using their own body parts to determine shorter lengths. If we use the normal, shorter cubit, 9' 6" is only 7" taller than the tallest man on modern record. If the measurer was somewhat shorter having only a 17-inch cubit and a 5-inch span, we would have a measurement comparable to the tallest man on modern record, because 6(17) + 5 = 107 inches or 8' 11".
People like to exaggerate and embellish their stories. Just look at the history of the Western U.S. during the 1700s and 1800s: Stories like Paul Bunyan, Pecos Bill, and John Henry grew to outrageous proportions (and last we heard of these men they were still growing)! Even real famous characters, such as Daniel Boone, Sam Houston, and Davy Crocket, had some WHOPPERS told about them that continued to grow while they lived and served the new United States of America.
The conclusion is this: Big and tall people are not so unusual as to require the intervention of "angelic breeding" (as if there were such a thing). Furthermore, the term "nefaliym" is NOT referring to a "race" of people that no longer exist. The word simply refers to the OCCUPATION of a tree FELLER, a lumberjack! And, stories like Paul Bunyan probably grew from ACTUAL huge, strong men who gravitated to the profession. It gave them the ability to make a good living from their size advantage. The problem in Genesis 6:1-8 is NOT that they were "angel-born," but that they were TYRANTS - BULLIES - and God would not put up with it, giving them 120 years to make amends or suffer the consequences.
All that and not one single consideration of the Matthew 10:28 usage of "soul" (psuche - equivalent to Hebrew nephesh).
Matt 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him Which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
(KJV)
That one verse strikes down all your doctrines of men that one's soul is part of the material matter of flesh.
The word 'substance' does not automatically mean material matter. That's only one defintion for substance.
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, veteran.
Hello, McFly? <Knock Knock Knock> Is anybody in there? Is anybody home? THINK, McFly, THINK!
They are able to kill the body but are not able to kill the "body and the spirit," the "SOUL!" The "soul" is NOT an immaterial part separate from the body; it is the COMBINATION of the body (the physical part) and the spirit (the immaterial part). It CONTAINS an immaterial part as well as the physical part!
You may THINK you've "killed a big one," but ... OOPS! ... you hit a straw man, instead!
Sorry, but you'll have to do better than that.
Hello, McFly? <Knock Knock Knock> Is anybody in there? Is anybody home? THINK, McFly, THINK!
They are able to kill the body but are not able to kill the "body and the spirit," the "SOUL!" The "soul" is NOT an immaterial part separate from the body; it is the COMBINATION of the body (the physical part) and the spirit (the immaterial part). It CONTAINS an immaterial part as well as the physical part!
You may THINK you've "killed a big one," but ... OOPS! ... you hit a straw man, instead!
Sorry, but you'll have to do better than that.
Peter and Jude, Paul, Matthew, John, and Christ Himself were eye witnesses to the fact that the book of Enoch was part of their scriptures.
While you're knocking, you might knock on that hard head of yours.
If the flesh body is dead, and the soul is not, then it's impossible for them to be the same thing. Saying it is is to put one's faith in flesh salvation, which is only ASSUMED by those who cannot fathom this matter per God's Word.
Paul covered this difference in 1 Cor.15 about the resurrection, as also in 2 Cor.5 about the heavenly body or "spiritual body", and also as Christ did to Nicodemus in John 3. That which is born of flesh IS flesh He said, and that which is born of the Spirit IS spirit (John 3:6).
Not only that, but this matter was first defined by Solomon in Ecclesiates 12:5-7, with the flesh body goes BACK to the earth where it came from, and the spirit goes BACK to God Who gave it.
If you'd rather believe something else, that's your problem.
revturmoil
New Member
If I'm understanding everyone correctly on this one I side with Retro. From what I can remember from a study on this several years ago the soul is what allows a body to have a spirit. And it allows animals to have life. Though I'm not completely sure and actually it doesn't matter a whole lot to me but I should study it again.
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Both fish and animals are said to have a soul.
It appears that Adam became a living soul after God gave him a spirit.
1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
Like our Lord Jesus revealed in Matt.10:28, don't fear man who can kill the flesh body, but NOT the soul, but God that can destroy both soul and body (spiritual body) in the lake of fire (geena).
You guys have failed to understand the division between flesh and spirit which Paul specifically taught in 1 Cor.15 about the resurrection. Even our Lord Jesus Himself said those of the resurrection are "as the angels of God in heaven" (Matt.22:30). The soul is our 'person', our 'intellect', the real part that is the difference between me, you, they. One can look up the Greek and Hebrew terms for it all day and still not understand it.
Yet a look at how Paul explained it in 1 Cor.15 starts to reveal the difference.
For example, what is a 'body' specifically per God's Word. Are 'you'... a body? I mean the real 'you', your intellect, your mind? Obviously not per God's Word, because Eccl.12:5-7 emphatically tells us the flesh body perishes, goes back to the material elements of the earth where it came from. There ain't NO mind dwelling in those dead bones in a casket.
Our loved ones and friends that have died are NOT in those caskets in the ground. The only thing that's there is rotted flesh and bones, made up from earthly matter, breaking back down to the atoms and molecules from the elements the earth is made of.
But Eccl.12:5-7 also tells us that the 'spirit' goes back to God Who gave it. Now those who try to attach the 'soul' to material matter of the earth will try and say that 'spirit' of Eccl.12 is only for animation of flesh, like NO intellect attached to it, kind of like a drop of water from God out of an endless ocean of Spirit that He has, and at man's flesh death that drop goes back into that ocean and its identity is lost back in God (don't laugh, that is actually what a lot of deluded occultists believe happens).
What's the result of those two ideas then, one for flesh, and one for spirit? If the flesh goes back to earth matter where it came from, 'mind' is not part of it. If the spirit is only for animation purposes and goes back to God with its identity (intellect) lost, then the 'person' would then cease to exist forever! Not just for a specific timespan until the resurrection, but gone forever, like no more. It would mean we are 'literally' destroyed by flesh death! Our Lord Jesus was specific in Matt.10:28 that the soul has continued existence if the flesh body is killed, for only God can destroy a soul.
This is why the "lake of fire" destruction is a heavenly order type of event. It's purpose is not to destroy flesh and bones, but one's 'spirit' and 'soul', for Satan and his angels were never born in the flesh, nor ever will be. Yet they have a spirit and a soul, even in the heavenly order independent of flesh. That's why that lake of fire has been specially prepared for him and his angels. So does Satan, his angels, and even God's heavenly angels have 'mind'? Who could say no? So how could they have 'mind' but no flesh body?
Simple, it's because the 'mind', or intellect, our 'person', is not dependent upon a flesh body. But it is... dependent upon having a body. So what kind of 'body' other than flesh is there per God's Word? Paul called that other kind of 'body' a "spiritual body", and also "the image of the heavenly" (1 Cor.15).
It's that kind of 'body', a "spiritual body", that our 'mind' must have to continue to exist in order to have Eternal Life through Christ Jesus. Moreover, per Paul in 1 Cor.15 with the KJV phrase "this mortal", that is about the 'mind' or 'intellect' which must put on immortality. Nowhere in 1 Cor.15 was Paul teaching that flesh could be made immortal! As a matter of fact, he was very specific that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither doth corruption inherit incorruption" (1 Cor.15:50). His description about "corruption" and "incorruption" was only about the change from a flesh corruptible body to an incorruptible spiritual body.
What Paul revealed is that the "this mortal" part is a separate idea about the 'soul', or 'intellect', or 'person', or 'mind', and not the same thing as the "spiritual body" (or body of "incorruption").
I've explained this before, trying to make it simple, and it really is simple. If a 'body' is not the same thing as our 'mind' or 'soul', then what is it? It's a VEHICLE for the 'mind' or 'soul'. Paul revealed there's TWO types of bodies in 1 Cor.15, "a natural body" (flesh, corruption), and "a spiritual body" (a body of incorruption that cannot die, unless... God Himself destroys it apart from the flesh in the "lake of fire"). Just to make sure he would be well understood, Paul gave another description of the two types of bodies with, "the image of the earthy" vs. "the image of the heavenly".
What's the idea of an 'image' about? It's about the likeness, outer appearance. Is it 'mind' or 'intellect'? NO! A 'body' has an outer likeness or appearance; mind does not. And if anyone here can show me what image appearance a 'mind' has, I'd be interested in seeing a picture of it. (please don't send me images of a brain that's made up of material earthly matter that perishes with the flesh body.)
That's what the "spiritual body", or "image of the heavenly" is for after our flesh body dies. It's a continued life support system for one's 'mind', the 'person', the 'soul'. And the way that spiritual body with the mind (soul intellect I'll call it now) can be destroyed is by God Himself with the future "lake of fire" event He has ordained of old for the wicked who follow Satan.
Here on earth in this world, we have 3 Parts to our makeup. We have a flesh body, our spirit inside it, and our 'mind' or soul attached to that spirit. That 'spirit' inside our flesh body actually IS... the "spiritual body" Paul was teaching about in 1 Cor.15. You don't have to wait until Christ comes to get one; you ALREADY have it. It's simply dwelling within your flesh with your intellect or personality. When the flesh body dies, 'you', that spirit and intellect simply casts off that dead flesh body.
This is why... Solomon mentioned about a "silver cord" that must be separated at flesh death (Eccl.12:5-7). There's an invisible silver cord which our spirit with soul has attached to our flesh body while alive in the flesh. At flesh death it is severred. This is why some have experienced a temporary separation of their spiritual body with soul from their flesh body in a near-death-experience. They lived to tell about it because their "silver cord" was not severred, otherwise they would have died. That is exactly what Apostle Paul was explaining in 2 Cor.12 about the one that was caught up to Paradise to the third heaven.
When our Lord Jesus Christ returns in our very near future, this change of putting off our flesh body is going to happen to all alive upon this earth at that time. So it's time to start understanding this matter, and prepare for it, which is why our Heavenly Father obviously gave this in His Word so we'd know.
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, "Son of Man."
Sorry, but there's not enough evidence to support this conclusion of YOURS! The book of Enoch (Chanokh) is FICTION that was added TO the Scriptures as though it was one of the canonical books, but it was created by the inhabitants of Qumran.
Shalom, veteran.
You don't know what you're talking about...again! What is the resurrection if not the raising of the fleshly body?! True, it's transformed into a powerful "spiritual body," a sooma pneumatikos, but that is to be compared to the "natural body," a sooma psuchikos! Isn't it odd that we have the word "spiritual" but we don't have a word like "soulual," for "psuchee," from which the word "psuchikos" comes, means "soul?" Instead, we use the word "natural" for translation! Why is that? And, is it legitimate to use that word for translation? Think about it.
Oh, and for the record, the resurrection is called the redemption of our bodies!
Romans 13:11
11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
KJV
Ephesians 1:13-14
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
KJV
1 Thessalonians 5:9-10
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
KJV
2 Timothy 2:10-13
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
KJV
Titus 2:11-14
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
KJV
Hebrews 1:14
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
KJV
Hebrews 9:28
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
KJV
1 Peter 1:3-5
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
KJV
The term "salvation" often refers to the "redemption of our bodies."
And yet, you STILL haven't answered my question about Ecclesiastes 12:5-7! What happens to the SOUL (Hebrew: nefesh)? Why isn't it mentioned? The "spiritual body" is not that different from the "soulual body" or the "natural body." The only difference is in the STRENGTH of the body! They are BOTH physical; however, the "natural body" is a "breathing body" while the "spiritual body" is a "BLASTING body!" a "LIFE-GIVING body!" While they are as different as seeds are from the stalks of wheat they produce, they are still both PHYSICAL! The same is true about the "spiritual body!" It is a body like that of the Messiah that could walk along the road, eat with the disciples, and could be handled by His disciples! He was not a ghost nor was He in a ghostly body! IT WAS TANGIBLE! And, that's how OUR bodies will be! When they are resurrected they will be stronger, more powerful, significantly altered, but PHYSICAL, TANGIBLE, REAL BODIES!
Who exactly is "kicking against the ox-goads" here? JUST LOOK AT THE SCRIPTURES! It would be good for you to get to the point where you can read and study the Scriptures in the original languages. Since Greek is more Occidental than Oriental, you would probably find the Greek easier to study than the Hebrew. But, you REALLY NEED to read daily from the Greek New Testament!
Sorry, but there's not enough evidence to support this conclusion of YOURS! The book of Enoch (Chanokh) is FICTION that was added TO the Scriptures as though it was one of the canonical books, but it was created by the inhabitants of Qumran.
Shalom, veteran.
You don't know what you're talking about...again! What is the resurrection if not the raising of the fleshly body?! True, it's transformed into a powerful "spiritual body," a sooma pneumatikos, but that is to be compared to the "natural body," a sooma psuchikos! Isn't it odd that we have the word "spiritual" but we don't have a word like "soulual," for "psuchee," from which the word "psuchikos" comes, means "soul?" Instead, we use the word "natural" for translation! Why is that? And, is it legitimate to use that word for translation? Think about it.
Oh, and for the record, the resurrection is called the redemption of our bodies!
Romans 13:11
11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
KJV
Ephesians 1:13-14
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
KJV
1 Thessalonians 5:9-10
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
KJV
2 Timothy 2:10-13
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
KJV
Titus 2:11-14
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
KJV
Hebrews 1:14
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
KJV
Hebrews 9:28
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
KJV
1 Peter 1:3-5
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
KJV
The term "salvation" often refers to the "redemption of our bodies."
And yet, you STILL haven't answered my question about Ecclesiastes 12:5-7! What happens to the SOUL (Hebrew: nefesh)? Why isn't it mentioned? The "spiritual body" is not that different from the "soulual body" or the "natural body." The only difference is in the STRENGTH of the body! They are BOTH physical; however, the "natural body" is a "breathing body" while the "spiritual body" is a "BLASTING body!" a "LIFE-GIVING body!" While they are as different as seeds are from the stalks of wheat they produce, they are still both PHYSICAL! The same is true about the "spiritual body!" It is a body like that of the Messiah that could walk along the road, eat with the disciples, and could be handled by His disciples! He was not a ghost nor was He in a ghostly body! IT WAS TANGIBLE! And, that's how OUR bodies will be! When they are resurrected they will be stronger, more powerful, significantly altered, but PHYSICAL, TANGIBLE, REAL BODIES!
Who exactly is "kicking against the ox-goads" here? JUST LOOK AT THE SCRIPTURES! It would be good for you to get to the point where you can read and study the Scriptures in the original languages. Since Greek is more Occidental than Oriental, you would probably find the Greek easier to study than the Hebrew. But, you REALLY NEED to read daily from the Greek New Testament!
There shall be NO Salvation in a 'flesh' body, like Apostle Paul said...
1 Cor 15:48-52
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(KJV)
Those who have died = "...the dead shall be raised incorruptible"
Those still alive on earth when Christ returns = "we shall be changed"
EVERYONE must... put on the "spiritual body" to continue into Christ's future "thousand years" reign, and then only those in Christ Jesus may continue to the new heavens and a new earth, IN their "spiritual body" state. We will be "as the angels" like Jesus said.
1 Cor 15:48-52
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(KJV)
Those who have died = "...the dead shall be raised incorruptible"
Those still alive on earth when Christ returns = "we shall be changed"
EVERYONE must... put on the "spiritual body" to continue into Christ's future "thousand years" reign, and then only those in Christ Jesus may continue to the new heavens and a new earth, IN their "spiritual body" state. We will be "as the angels" like Jesus said.
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