Rapture Thoughts of Some Early Church Leaders

TazzJazz said:

Yes, His brothers are sheeplike; they follow Him, too.

But at Matthew 25:31-40, Jesus differentiated between the two groups, not me. At John 10:16, Jesus said, "I have other sheep which are not of this fold (the fold which are His brothers); those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they must become one flock one Shepherd."

Simply put, Christ's brothers are those chosen to rule with Jesus in God's Kingdom, associate Kings and priests. But not everyone can be a king (a chosen one)..... Most of Christ's sheep, the ones of Matthew 25, will be subjects of that Kingdom (Daniel 2:44; Matthew 6:9,10), enjoying the benefits of Jesus' Kingdom rule over a paradise Earth.

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Yes, interestingly God is said to have “sons”, not “brothers”…..but Jesus is said to have “brothers” not ”sons”….clearly they are two separate entities who have their own attributes and positions of power….none more powerful than the “Almighty God”…..Yahweh/Jehovah….Jesus is not once referred to as the “Almighty”….and he referred to his Father as “my God”. (Rev 3:12) Can God have a God?

TazzJazz said:

But at Matthew 25:31-40, Jesus differentiated between the two groups

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What was the differentiation, and what was its result?

TazzJazz said:

Most of Christ's sheep, the ones of Matthew 25, will be subjects of that Kingdom

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Not all of Christ's sheep?

TazzJazz said:

Yes, His brothers are sheeplike; they follow Him, too.

But at Matthew 25:31-40, Jesus differentiated between the two groups, not me.

Click to expand...

It's not two groups. The least of these are a subset of the sheep. Jesus said "He who is not with me is against me" (Matthew 12:30). The sheep represent those who are with Jesus and belong to Him (see John 10) and the goats represent those who are against Him and do not have their names written in the book of life. They will be cast into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels when Jesus comes. So, Matthew 25:41 refers to the same thing as Revelation 20:15.

TazzJazz said:

At John 10:16, Jesus said, "I have other sheep which are not of this fold (the fold which are His brothers); those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they must become one flock one Shepherd."

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He was referring to the Gentiles there after referring to the Jews previously. Through His sacrifice, Jew and Gentile believers have been brought together as "one new man" and "one body" in the church (Ephesians 2:11-22). The two folds were brought together as one fold (the church).

TazzJazz said:

Simply put, Christ's brothers are those chosen to rule with Jesus in God's Kingdom, associate Kings and priests.

Click to expand...

All believers are kings and priests in His kingdom.

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

TazzJazz said:

But not everyone can be a king (a chosen one)..... Most of Christ's sheep, the ones of Matthew 25, will be subjects of that Kingdom (Daniel 2:44; Matthew 6:9,10), enjoying the benefits of Jesus' Kingdom rule over a paradise Earth.

Click to expand...

There is no basis for what you are saying. You are trying to divide what the blood of Christ brought together as "one new man", "one body" and "one fold".

Aunty Jane said:

Yes, interestingly God is said to have “sons”, not “brothers”…..but Jesus is said to have “brothers” not ”sons”….clearly they are two separate entities who have their own attributes and positions of power….none more powerful than the “Almighty God”…..Yahweh/Jehovah….Jesus is not once referred to as the “Almighty”….and he referred to his Father as “my God”. (Rev 3:12) Can God have a God?

Click to expand...

No one says that God has a God. God exists as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Here is God the Father speaking to God the Son...

Hebrews 1:8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

You continue to fail to understand that Jesus is God and man at the same time because of being blinded by the Jehovah's Witnesses cult.

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

Many scriptures teach that Jesus is God and you foolishly deny them all. This passage is clear. Jesus was "in the form of God" and "equal with God". That means He is God. But, He came to earth "in the likeness of men" and was "found in appearance as a man". Despite being God, He humbled Himself and also became a man so that He could sacrifice Himself for the sins of the world.

Jesus is God and became flesh and dwelt among human beings as a human. But, He never stopped being God as well. He is 100% God and 100% human at the same time.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.....14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’ ”

Spiritual Israelite said:

All believers are kings and priests in His kingdom.

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

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Let me just ask you this.....over whom did the kings and priests in Israel preside?
Was the whole nation eligible to be “kings and priests” regardless of which tribe they belonged to?

Did they have “all chiefs and no Indians”?
The nation of Israel and its rulership and priesthood prefigured another one....the heavenly one that Jesus came to teach them about.....just as some were eligible for rulership and priesthood, others were not. What does that picture? How is it that now these “kings and priests” can be from any tribe of spiritual Israel?
Like Jesus, they are specially appointed by God to assume both roles....”in the manner of Melchizedek.”

What is revealed in the Revelation?
John sees angels who are holding back the destruction that is to come upon the earth in this “time of the end”, prophesied by Daniel.

Rev 7:2-4...ESV..
“Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel”.

These servants of God receive a “sealing” and they are also a specific number. This is spiritual Israel, “the Israel of God” who are made up of both natural Jews and Gentiles from all nations. (Gal 6:16; Acts 10:24-25) These are “chosen from among mankind as firstfruits”.......so, to the agricultural nation of Israel, what were the “firstfruits”?
They knew that firstfruits were the best of the crop, and they also knew that there would be a secondary crop to follow, not as good in quality as the firstfruits, but still a valuable part of the crop, harvested later.

Rev 14:1-5...John says....
“Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. . . .and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb, and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.” (ESV)

This is not the political nation of today’s “Israel”, that is very much a part of the world and its bloodshed ....this is a heavenly Mt Zion......

Heb 12:22-23...Paul wrote....
“But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect”. (ESV)

This Jerusalem is heavenly, so Mount Zion is also heavenly.....not an earthly location.

And those who are “enrolled in the heavens” are “the assembly of the firstborn” those who are Christ’s brothers....chosen to rule with him in the heavenly Kingdom. (Rev 20:6)

So then, what does John see next.....?
“After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”. . . .Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. “Therefore they are before the throne of God,and serve him day and night in his temple;and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them,nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd, and he will guide them to springs of living water,and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.” (Rev 7: 9-10, 13-17 Rev 21:2-4 ESV)

There are clearly two groups here....one numbered and one unnumbered. This would make no sense unless the numbers were literal.
The group who are invited to heaven are chosen by God, so they will be the best rulers that humans have ever had on this planet......and the ones who will be their earthly subjects will rejoice daily in their administration of the “government” that is placed on the shoulders of “the Prince of Peace”.

Spiritual Israelite said:

There is no basis for what you are saying. You are trying to divide what the blood of Christ brought together as "one new man", "one body" and "one fold".

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There is indeed very good evidence for the existence of the two groups, who both owe their salvation to God and the Lamb...no mention of the third party however.
As John 17 :3 says we have to “know the only true God AND the one he sent Jesus Christ”.....why do we not need to “know” the Holy Spirit?

You seem to have large holes in the story you prefer....there are no holes in the story Jesus told.....it was he who presented the Revelation, which he said was from God, not himself. (Rev 1:1)

Spiritual Israelite said:

No one says that God has a God. God exists as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

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No Scripture says so.....Jesus called the Father his God even after his return to heaven. (Rev 3:12)
That means that an equal part of God worships himself.....you don’t have a blind spot with that observation?

Spiritual Israelite said:

Here is God the Father speaking to God the Son...

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So he talks to himself as well? And prays to himself too?
The Father can know things the Son doesn’t? (Matt 24:37-39)
He can serve as his Father’s High Priest because he is also God? Are you hearing yourself?

Spiritual Israelite said:

Hebrews 1:8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

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Read on and see what the next verse says...

“But of the Son he says,“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.” (ESV)

Greek phrasing is also at work here as that first part of verse 8 should be translated...”God is your throne forever” which is in keeping with what the next verse says, rather than contradicting it. Many verses are translated to support a doctrine that Bible does not teach.
Does God have companions?

Spiritual Israelite said:

You continue to fail to understand that Jesus is God and man at the same time because of being blinded by the Jehovah's Witnesses cult.

Click to expand...

When Jesus walked the earth, what do you think the Jews would have called him.....? The leader of a cult! Don’t listen to him because he disagrees with what our leaders have taught us.....sound familiar?
What cult do youbelong to? Do you disagree with what the churches teach? Are you also a cult leader? A church of one?

Spiritual Israelite said:

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

Many scriptures teach that Jesus is God and you foolishly deny them all.

Click to expand...

And for good reason...here again is a very poor translation of the Greek....
Correctly translated, it says the oppositeof what this translation suggests....

The ESV, not the NWT says.....
“Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

When you take those verses apart and examine them closely you will see the error......
Just the highlighted parts tell the real story......not the distorted ones that bad translations do. Twisting the words to mean what they never did.

See what it really says.....Jesus did NOT consider equality with God as something to be grasped.

As a human, he humbled himself, because he was a magnificent spirit being in heaven at his Father’s side since his creation. (Rev 3:14)....and he was also obedient to his Father to the point of death, which shows that he was not in any way equal with his own God. If he was God he was also immortal, which means he could not die the same death as Adam...all Jesus needed to be was “sinless” to pay the price of redemption....which was an equal payment to the debt. God is not an equal payment.

If Jesus has a name given to him by his Father that is above every name then he would also be above the name of his God and Father who is identified in Psalm 83:18 as Yahweh. Nowhere in all of Scripture is Jesus ever called “Yahweh” who is “the Most High over all the earth.” No one can be higher.

Bowing the knee to Jesus is obeisance, not worship. It is the same word in Greek but is only worship when it refers to Yahweh. Angels did not “worship” Jesus and neither did the magi.

And every tongue is confessing that Jesus is “Lord” not “God”...and it is not to his own glory but to his Father’s.

It is apparent that you read Scripture that way you want to, not as it is written.

Spiritual Israelite said:

This passage is clear. Jesus was "in the form of God" and "equal with God". That means He is God. But, He came to earth "in the likeness of men" and was "found in appearance as a man". Despite being God, He humbled Himself and also became a man so that He could sacrifice Himself for the sins of the world.

Jesus is God and became flesh and dwelt among human beings as a human. But, He never stopped being God as well. He is 100% God and 100% human at the same time.

Click to expand...

You see what errors you assume to be true? Jesus was not 200% of anything. In order to pay the ransom demanded, all he needed to be was a sinless 100% human. Immortals cannot die, so if Jesus didn’t die the ransom is not paid, and we are without hope.

Spiritual Israelite said:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.....14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’ ”

Click to expand...

Again you read without study or comprehension....what does the word “theos” mean in Greek? It means any god or goddess, even false gods like satan. (2 Cor 4:4)
It can also mean anyone who is authorised as God’s representative, as the judges were in Israel.
Yahweh called those Judges, “gods” (theos) himself. (John 10:31-36)

What did Jesus call himself?...”the Son of God”...but never “God the Son”....that is a Catholic invention.

You will notice that creation came “through” the Son......and Col 1:15-16 also says that all creation came from the Father, but through the Son....

“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.” (ESV)

If you work “through” someone else, that is an agent...and we all know what an agent is......real estate agents and agents in the entertainment industry represent their clients.......Christ’s agency is mistaken for him being the Creator, when he is never given that title.

It was the Word who became flesh, not God. Yahweh was not in a position to pay the price of redemption....so he sent the only one who could.....His faithful Son who had been at his Father’s side in the creation of all things.

If John 1:1 was correctly translated the trinity would be shot down immediately.
It should read....”In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Yahweh and the Word was divine.”

No trinity there....and John 1:18 confirms it...

“No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.” (NASB)

If “no one has seen God at any time”, then Jesus is not God.....thousands saw Jesus....he is the one who “explained Him”....he is “monogenes theos”...”the only begotten god”....who occupies a special place in his Father’s heavenly family. Most trinitarians shy away from that truth because they cannot explain how God can be “begotten”.......any one “begotten” in the Bible had to have a ‘begetter’ who existed before them and caused them to come into existence.

The Son is His God’s most trusted “holy servant”. (Acts 4:27, 30) The Almighty cannot be his own servant.

Too many errors in translation...so if you don’t do your careful research, these details will escape you.

Aunty Jane said:

No Scripture says so.....Jesus called the Father his God even after his return to heaven. (Rev 3:12)
That means that an equal part of God worships himself.....you don’t have a blind spot with that observation?

So he talks to himself as well? And prays to himself too?
The Father can know things the Son doesn’t? (Matt 24:37-39)
He can serve as his Father’s High Priest because he is also God? Are you hearing yourself?

Read on and see what the next verse says...

“But of the Son he says,“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.” (ESV)

Greek phrasing is also at work here as that first part of verse 8 should be translated...”God is your throne forever” which is in keeping with what the next verse says, rather than contradicting it. Many verses are translated to support a doctrine that Bible does not teach.
Does God have companions?

When Jesus walked the earth, what do you think the Jews would have called him.....? The leader of a cult! Don’t listen to him because he disagrees with what our leaders have taught us.....sound familiar?
What cult do youbelong to? Do you disagree with what the churches teach? Are you also a cult leader? A church of one?

And for good reason...here again is a very poor translation of the Greek....
Correctly translated, it says the oppositeof what this translation suggests....

The ESV, not the NWT says.....
“Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

When you take those verses apart and examine them closely you will see the error......
Just the highlighted parts tell the real story......not the distorted ones that bad translations do. Twisting the words to mean what they never did.

See what it really says.....Jesus did NOT consider equality with God as something to be grasped.

As a human, he humbled himself, because he was a magnificent spirit being in heaven at his Father’s side since his creation. (Rev 3:14)....and he was also obedient to his Father to the point of death, which shows that he was not in any way equal with his own God. If he was God he was also immortal, which means he could not die the same death as Adam...all Jesus needed to be was “sinless” to pay the price of redemption....which was an equal payment to the debt. God is not an equal payment.

If Jesus has a name given to him by his Father that is above every name then he would also be above the name of his God and Father who is identified in Psalm 83:18 as Yahweh. Nowhere in all of Scripture is Jesus ever called “Yahweh” who is “the Most High over all the earth.” No one can be higher.

Bowing the knee to Jesus is obeisance, not worship. It is the same word in Greek but is only worship when it refers to Yahweh. Angels did not “worship” Jesus and neither did the magi.

And every tongue is confessing that Jesus is “Lord” not “God”...and it is not to his own glory but to his Father’s.

It is apparent that you read Scripture that way you want to, not as it is written.

You see what errors you assume to be true? Jesus was not 200% of anything. In order to pay the ransom demanded, all he needed to be was a sinless 100% human. Immortals cannot die, so if Jesus didn’t die the ransom is not paid, and we are without hope.

Again you read without study or comprehension....what does the word “theos” mean in Greek? It means any god or goddess, even false gods like satan. (2 Cor 4:4)
It can also mean anyone who is authorised as God’s representative, as the judges were in Israel.
Yahweh called those Judges, “gods” (theos) himself. (John 10:31-36)

What did Jesus call himself?...”the Son of God”...but never “God the Son”....that is a Catholic invention.

You will notice that creation came “through” the Son......and Col 1:15-16 also says that all creation came from the Father, but through the Son....

“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.” (ESV)

If you work “through” someone else, that is an agent...and we all know what an agent is......real estate agents and agents in the entertainment industry represent their clients.......Christ’s agency is mistaken for him being the Creator, when he is never given that title.

It was the Word who became flesh, not God. Yahweh was not in a position to pay the price of redemption....so he sent the only one who could.....His faithful Son who had been at his Father’s side in the creation of all things.

If John 1:1 was correctly translated the trinity would be shot down immediately.
It should read....”In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Yahweh and the Word was divine.”

No trinity there....and John 1:18 confirms it...

“No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.” (NASB)

If “no one has seen God at any time”, then Jesus is not God.....thousands saw Jesus....he is the one who “explained Him”....he is “monogenes theos”...”the only begotten god”....who occupies a special place in his Father’s heavenly family. Most trinitarians shy away from that truth because they cannot explain how God can be “begotten”.......any one “begotten” in the Bible had to have a ‘begetter’ who existed before them and caused them to come into existence.

The Son is His God’s most trusted “holy servant”. (Acts 4:27, 30) The Almighty cannot be his own servant.

Too many errors in translation...so if you don’t do your careful research, these details will escape you.

Click to expand...

Evidently there a a few denominations that teach Michael is Jesus, what are your thoughts on that ?

seer said:

Evidently there a a few denominations that teach Michael is Jesus, what are your thoughts on that ?

Click to expand...

Hello and welcome to the forum.

I believe what the Bible tells me.....Micheal is featured as one of only two angels named in the Bible.....the other one is Gabriel. Both had important assignments from their God.

Michael is seen contending with the enemies of Daniel’s people in chapter 12.

Daniel closes chapter eleven with a prophetic picture of the final siege by the “king of the north” and then says: “He will have to come all the way to his end, and there will be no helper for him.” His political rival for world domination, the “king of the south,” will also be brought to his end with no one to help and save him. (Daniel 11:45)
The sons of Daniel’s people back there were the faithful remnant of Israelites who left Babylon and rebuilt Jerusalem and Jehovah’s temple there.

Today, Daniel’s people would be, not the fleshly circumcised Israelites in the literal state of Israel, who reject the Messiah....whose appearance Daniel foretold some 500 years before Jesus’ birth, but the remnant of spiritual Israelites of our day, (Gal 6:16) ......“the Israel of God” today are the spirit-begotten Christians alive in this “time of the end”.

Once again ‘Michael the great prince’ in heaven, stands, and he exerts his power and authority in behalf of this spiritual remnant. This action is what precipitates the “time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time.”...known as “the great tribulation” as foretold also by Jesus. (Matt 24:21)

So because I do not believe that Jesus is “God” as part of a trinity, I do believe that Jesus plays many roles in his Father’s purpose, and is given many names as a result.....

And since Michael is said to be the Commander of the angelic forces and Jesus holds that same title, I believe that they could be one and the same person. I don’t believe that there is a Scriptural argument against it, and I hold it only as a belief, not a solid doctrine as the Bible doesn’t specifically say that the two are the same person. My one solid belief is that Jesus is not in any way, equal with his God and Father.

What are your thoughts?

Aunty Jane said:

Hello and welcome to the forum.

I believe what the Bible tells me.....Micheal is featured as one of only two angels named in the Bible.....the other one is Gabriel. Both had important assignments from their God.

Michael is seen contending with the enemies of Daniel’s people in chapter 12.

Daniel closes chapter eleven with a prophetic picture of the final siege by the “king of the north” and then says: “He will have to come all the way to his end, and there will be no helper for him.” His political rival for world domination, the “king of the south,” will also be brought to his end with no one to help and save him. (Daniel 11:45)
The sons of Daniel’s people back there were the faithful remnant of Israelites who left Babylon and rebuilt Jerusalem and Jehovah’s temple there.

Today, Daniel’s people would be, not the fleshly circumcised Israelites in the literal state of Israel, who reject the Messiah....whose appearance Daniel foretold some 500 years before Jesus’ birth, but the remnant of spiritual Israelites of our day, (Gal 6:16) ......“the Israel of God” today are the spirit-begotten Christians alive in this “time of the end”.

Once again ‘Michael the great prince’ in heaven, stands, and he exerts his power and authority in behalf of this spiritual remnant. This action is what precipitates the “time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time.”...known as “the great tribulation” as foretold also by Jesus. (Matt 24:21)

So because I do not believe that Jesus is “God” as part of a trinity, I do believe that Jesus plays many roles in his Father’s purpose, and is given many names as a result.....

And since Michael is said to be the Commander of the angelic forces and Jesus holds that same title, I believe that they could be one and the same person. I don’t believe that there is a Scriptural argument against it, and I hold it only as a belief, not a solid doctrine as the Bible doesn’t specifically say that the two are the same person. My one solid belief is that Jesus is not in any way, equal with his God and Father.

What are your thoughts?

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Hi AJ, I'm sure we both agree that Jesus is unique, one of a kind, there is no other.
Yet Michael is described as one the princes.
Daniel 10:13 But then Miʹcha·el,*p one of the foremost princes,*

seer said:

Hi AJ, I'm sure we both agree that Jesus is unique, one of a kind, there is no other.

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As God’s “only begotten.....his “firstborn” among many “sons”, what is it that makes this Son so unique?

Two Scriptures come to mind....
Col 1 :15-17 describes Jesus as “the firstborn of all creation”, which to me means that he was the first and only direct creation of the Father alone....all other creation came through the agency of the son....”all creation came through him and for him”....an odd thing for God to say about himself.

The other Scripture is in Rev 3:14.....which calls Jesus “the beginning of God’s creation”....and since Jesus was the one who conveyed the Revelation from God to John, he was speaking about himself.....

In Rev 3:12 Jesus calls his Father “my God” four times in that one verse....he has been back in heaven for over 50 years. Does God himself have a god even in heaven?

Only the trinity doctrine argues with God’s word on this one belief held by the majority in Christendom....yet for the first 300 years of “Christianity” there was no official doctrine of the trinity because the Bible never mentions it. The reason being that the first Christians were all Jewish and they did not have any notion of a triune God...their God Yahweh was one...not three. (Deut 6:4)

It took the apostate church that long and through much controversy to make it an official teaching of the church....and that from a church which Jesus warned would be misled by satan....the “weeds” of his parable.

We also have the clear unequivocal words of the apostles, collectively stating....
“For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.” (NASB)

For those taught by Jesus Christ himself...there was only “one God...the Father”...and their “one Lord” was Jesus Christ.....there is no confusion there, showing that the trinity was not around when the apostles wrote their contributions to Scripture.
Even up to John’s Revelation, given at the end of the first century, where he stated that Jesus was “the beginning of God’s creation”.

I’m pretty sure that if Jesus said he was God incarnate, they would know....yet they never specifically said.....but ambiguous verses have been offered through the centuries to try and make it stick......it apparently worked, as the majority believe it....the trouble is, it’s not the majority who will be found on the road to life. (Matt 7:13-14)

Putting another “god” in place of the Father is a breach of the first Commandment (Exodus 20:3)......something no God-fearing Jew would ever accept. But apostate “Christians” far removed from the apostles’ teachings have kept the doctrine alive......just like hell....another non existent church teaching.

seer said:

Yet Michael is described as one the princes.
Daniel 10:13 But then Miʹcha·el,*p one of the foremost princes,*

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This was a description from Daniel who was given the vision. He was an old man and Jesus’ birth was still 500 years into the future.
If Jesus was the one leading this battle in vision, he would appear to be “one of the foremost Princes” to Daniel.
Do we really know about rank among God’s spirit sons? What are angels? What are cherubs? What are Seraphs? We only have glimpses....

One other thing that distinguishes Michael as “the great Prince” is the fact that he alone is called “the Archangel Michael”.
In the book of Daniel, Michael is described as fighting wicked demons in behalf of God’s people. (Daniel 10:13; 12:1)
In the inspired letter of Jude, Michael confronts Satan in a dispute over Moses’ body. (Jude 9)
The book of Revelation shows that Michael wars with Satan and his demons and casts them out of heaven. (Rev 12:7-9)
No other angel is portrayed as having such great power and authority over God’s enemies. It’s no wonder, then, that the Bible appropriately refers to Michael as “the archangel,.....the prefix “arch” meaning “chief,” or “principal.”
If he is the Chief and Commander of the angelic army, he is not God, but is himself under God’s command. (1 Cor 11:3) This also puts Jesus and Michael on the same level. Both are described as having angels under their command. There can only be one Chief Angel....a position that in no way diminishes Jesus in the service of his God....he is always depicted as at his Father’s right hand....and yet the Holy Spirit is never said to be at his left.....

And at the final battle, it is Jesus and his angelic forces who bring down satan’s rulership....in Rev 3:12 Jesus talks about his “new name”.....in his role as King of God’s Kingdom.....so Jesus has more than one name....

Aunty Jane said:

As God’s “only begotten.....his “firstborn” among many “sons”, what is it that makes this Son so unique?

Two Scriptures come to mind....
Col 1 :15-17 describes Jesus as “the firstborn of all creation”, which to me means that he was the first and only direct creation of the Father alone....all other creation came through the agency of the son....”all creation came through him and for him”....an odd thing for God to say about himself.

The other Scripture is in Rev 3:14.....which calls Jesus “the beginning of God’s creation”....and since Jesus was the one who conveyed the Revelation from God to John, he was speaking about himself.....

In Rev 3:12 Jesus calls his Father “my God” four times in that one verse....he has been back in heaven for over 50 years. Does God himself have a god even in heaven?

Only the trinity doctrine argues with God’s word on this one belief held by the majority in Christendom....yet for the first 300 years of “Christianity” there was no official doctrine of the trinity because the Bible never mentions it. The reason being that the first Christians were all Jewish and they did not have any notion of a triune God...their God Yahweh was one...not three. (Deut 6:4)

It took the apostate church that long and through much controversy to make it an official teaching of the church....and that from a church which Jesus warned would be misled by satan....the “weeds” of his parable.

We also have the clear unequivocal words of the apostles, collectively stating....
“For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.” (NASB)

For those taught by Jesus Christ himself...there was only “one God...the Father”...and their “one Lord” was Jesus Christ.....there is no confusion there, showing that the trinity was not around when the apostles wrote their contributions to Scripture.
Even up to John’s Revelation, given at the end of the first century, where he stated that Jesus was “the beginning of God’s creation”.

I’m pretty sure that if Jesus said he was God incarnate, they would know....yet they never specifically said.....but ambiguous verses have been offered through the centuries to try and make it stick......it apparently worked, as the majority believe it....the trouble is, it’s not the majority who will be found on the road to life. (Matt 7:13-14)

Putting another “god” in place of the Father is a breach of the first Commandment (Exodus 20:3)......something no God-fearing Jew would ever accept. But apostate “Christians” far removed from the apostles’ teachings have kept the doctrine alive......just like hell....another non existent church teaching.

This was a description from Daniel who was given the vision. He was an old man and Jesus’ birth was still 500 years into the future.
If Jesus was the one leading this battle in vision, he would appear to be “one of the foremost Princes” to Daniel.
Do we really know about rank among God’s spirit sons? What are angels? What are cherubs? What are Seraphs? We only have glimpses....

One other thing that distinguishes Michael as “the great Prince” is the fact that he alone is called “the Archangel Michael”.
In the book of Daniel, Michael is described as fighting wicked demons in behalf of God’s people. (Daniel 10:13; 12:1)
In the inspired letter of Jude, Michael confronts Satan in a dispute over Moses’ body. (Jude 9)
The book of Revelation shows that Michael wars with Satan and his demons and casts them out of heaven. (Rev 12:7-9)
No other angel is portrayed as having such great power and authority over God’s enemies. It’s no wonder, then, that the Bible appropriately refers to Michael as “the archangel,.....the prefix “arch” meaning “chief,” or “principal.”
If he is the Chief and Commander of the angelic army, he is not God, but is himself under God’s command. (1 Cor 11:3) This also puts Jesus and Michael on the same level. Both are described as having angels under their command. There can only be one Chief Angel....a position that in no way diminishes Jesus in the service of his God....he is always depicted as at his Father’s right hand....and yet the Holy Spirit is never said to be at his left.....

And at the final battle, it is Jesus and his angelic forces who bring down satan’s rulership....in Rev 3:12 Jesus talks about his “new name”.....in his role as King of God’s Kingdom.....so Jesus has more than one name....

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Do you believe Michael and Jesus are the same person/being ?

seer said:

Do you believe Michael and Jesus are the same person/being ?

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I believe they could be...yes, but it’s no big deal if they aren’t either......it’s the role they play that counts, not their name. We know Jesus has more than one name, and that Michael also fits the description of God’s champion.....

@seer Just noticed you’re an Aussie, nice to welcome another a fellow Australian. There are a few of us here from Qld, Victoria, WA and I’m from NSW...and now a South Australian. We just need an N T resident to represent the whole country!

Aunty Jane said:

I believe they could be...yes, but it’s no big deal if they aren’t either......it’s the role they play that counts, not their name. We know Jesus has more than one name, and that Michael also fits the description of God’s champion.....

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If Michael and Jesus are the same person/being then why in Jude 1:9 Michael (Jesus?) did not dare slander/condemn the devil yet did so in Mat 4:10, Luke 4:35, Mark 1:25, Matt 16:23, Mark 8:23

Aunty Jane said:

I believe they could be...yes, but it’s no big deal if they aren’t either......it’s the role they play that counts, not their name. We know Jesus has more than one name, and that Michael also fits the description of God’s champion.....

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Michael and Jesus were and are not the same. Jesus is GOD and Michael, the Arc Angel was created.

Bladerunner said:

Michael and Jesus were and are not the same. Jesus is GOD and Michael, the Arc Angel was created.

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If the Bible teaches Michael is Jesus then it's simply a matter of pointing out where scripture teaches that as yet though I have not found anywhere where it does.

covenantee said:

What was the differentiation, and what was its result?

Not all of Christ's sheep?

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No....Because some of them -- Christs brothers -- are part of the Kingdom. They rule with Jesus.


Have a good day.

Spiritual Israelite said:

It's not two groups. The least of these are a subset of the sheep. Jesus said "He who is not with me is against me" (Matthew 12:30). The sheep represent those who are with Jesus and belong to Him (see John 10) and the goats represent those who are against Him and do not have their names written in the book of life. They will be cast into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels when Jesus comes. So, Matthew 25:41 refers to the same thing as Revelation 20:15.


He was referring to the Gentiles there after referring to the Jews previously. Through His sacrifice, Jew and Gentile believers have been brought together as "one new man" and "one body" in the church (Ephesians 2:11-22). The two folds were brought together as one fold (the church).


All believers are kings and priests in His kingdom.

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.


There is no basis for what you are saying. You are trying to divide what the blood of Christ brought together as "one new man", "one body" and "one fold".

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There's all kinds of bases. Jesus said "Happy are the meek, since they will inherit the Earth." See Psalm 37:11,29.

I'm not gonna argue with you. I don't argue over God's Word. I just like to present the scriptures and reason on them.

TazzJazz said:

No....Because some of them -- Christs brothers -- are part of the Kingdom. They rule with Jesus.


Have a good day.

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Mark 3
34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

All who do the will of God are Christ's brothers, and sisters, and mothers.

There is no differentiation.

A good day to you as well.