Well, yes it did happen already. Why else would Satan's host today be trying to rebuild it? And they will fail, just like Saddam also failed.
A Simple Way To Recognize The FINAL Beast Kingdom
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Well, yes it did happen already. Why else would Satan's host today be trying to rebuild it? And they will fail, just like Saddam also failed.
IN SUMMARY OF THIS THREAD THEN...
Daniel 2:34-35 and Daniel 2:44-45 reveal that ALL... the previous beast empires will be manifest together at the end of this world prior to Christ's coming.
This joining of religions can be seen as ecumenicalism. Examples of pagan religious worship are being invited on display in Christian Churches today, as a way to show respect for 'other' Faiths. This was one of the prophecies Apostle Paul warned the Church about in 2 Thessalonians 4, where Paul said the coming "man of sin" will exalt himself over all that is worshiped or that is called God. It's about a one-world religion.
Daniel 2:34-35 and Daniel 2:44-45 reveal that ALL... the previous beast empires will be manifest together at the end of this world prior to Christ's coming.
This joining of religions can be seen as ecumenicalism. Examples of pagan religious worship are being invited on display in Christian Churches today, as a way to show respect for 'other' Faiths. This was one of the prophecies Apostle Paul warned the Church about in 2 Thessalonians 4, where Paul said the coming "man of sin" will exalt himself over all that is worshiped or that is called God. It's about a one-world religion.
The Light
Well-Known Member
You are confusing the great city which is Vatican City with Jerusalem.
Additionally, you are further confusing this with the judgement against Babylon and land of the Chaldeans in Jeremiah 50 and 51.
Would you care to unpack verses 41-44 before you declare 34 an end time prophecy?
Verse 34 is the cross.
Verse 35 and 45 are the end times.
Verses 41-44 reflect in very broad terms what happens between the two - specifically, the coming of He church, the corruption of His church …
Chapter 7 - limited discussion of first 3 kingdoms, then the 4th kingdom after the cross,
Chapter 8 - limited discussion of the second and third kingdoms, then all about the little horn after the cross,
Chapter 9 - all about the restoration of His people and His city and the most detailed prophecies about the Messiah coming in the final week of the prophecy,
Chapter 11 - Very brief comments on the second and third kingdoms (1-4) and then an extremely detailed discussion of the events that take place after the Cross. The movements of His church, the decline of pagan Rome, the corruption of His church, the growth of the little horn and how he will continue until the end of time.
So God gave us His “blueprint “ for His plan of restoration and salvation for mankind in chapter 2… and then the rest of the chapters are the details that reveal what takes place largely between 2:34 and 2:45.
Try and unpack 2:41-44 which provides us with the 30,000 foot view.
Thanks.
Cannot break up those Daniel 2:34-35 verses like that. Their context is timed together. Verses 34 & 35 are about Neb seeing a "stone" smite the beast upon its feet of iron mixed with clay, which then all... the five pieces are shown broken 'together' (at the same time), and then the "stone" that smote the feet became a great mountain (kingdom) and filled the whole earth. That is about Christ as that "stone", and His smiting upon the feet of iron mixed with clay will end the beast kingdoms forever which will be established at the end again. Christ's Kingdom then will be setup over all, which is still future to us.
The Daniel 2:44-45 verses are a 'repeat' of the events of Daniel 2:34-35 with some additional prophetic information. The phrase "And in the days of these kings..." points to the end times, when a kingdom will be established as the "great mountain" that fills the whole earth after the beast is smitten by the "stone" (Christ). We are shown then that "the God of heaven will setup a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed:," which is pointing to that Dan.2:35 "great mountain, and filled the whole earth."
Thus those Daniel 2 Scriptures are actually very simple. All five pieces of the beast statue are to be manifest 'together'... at the END of this world as those "days of the these kings". And the only everlasting Kingdom that God will setup which will never be destroyed is Christ's future Kingdom that will be established here on earth at His future 2nd coming.
It is that Daniel 2:34-35 and 44-45 Scripture which 'governs' HOW those other Daniel Chapters are to be understood. Otherwise you have a conflict between those Scriptures.
As I mentioned, Daniel is the most difficult book in the Bible to unpack - nothing is simple in Daniel.
The only way to prove what you are saying is to understand verses 2:41-44… and not just claim they are end time verses. What do the scholars tell us they mean? We can start with their interpretations … those that you find acceptable.
God has given us these 4 verses for a reason- to reveal His “blueprint” of His plan for salvation. They tell us what will happen after the cross - after He (Stone) strikes the feet and separates the two elements only - iron and clay. This begins His earthly church (pottery clay goes out to preach the Good News and it is His church that grows into a great mountain. This “mountain” grows over a 2000 year period.
Verse 2:34 is what “causes” all of this - His church just didn’t happen.
Verse 2:33 represents the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome. Thus 4 and only 4 kingdoms are found within His plan of salvation (Book of Daniel). Then He gives us two verses - 2:34 THEN 2:35 that tell us the first and second coming. That is His “big picture plan.
Everything in Daniel occurs between 2:34 and 2:35. Anyone can make a statement that 2:34 and 2:35 are both end time events, just as I can contend they represent His first coming and His return.
It is verses 2:41-44 that will determine the answer. What are they telling us? Thanks.
I just made it simple for you. And I missed those Daniel 2:34-35 and Daniel 2:44-45 events for a long time, just looked over them like most brethren do. Yet they are symbolic 'anchors' there for the rest of the Book of Daniel.
I didn't "just claim"... they are end time verses. The prophecy is what reveals that. Understand the prophecy and you understand the timing.
That Scripture is simple enough so that one does not need a Bible scholar to reveal it, that is, if one truly has The Holy Spirit guiding them. And you cannot cover the 44-45 verses without referring back to the subject in the 34-35 verses. Their events are tied together.
Breaking it down:
Dan.2:44:
"in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed:" = can only mean God's Eternal Kingdom to come under Lord Jesus Christ. It is not today, because Lord Jesus prophesied of a one-world beast kingdom setup over all peoples and nations for the end of this world, just prior to His future return. Because that Eternal Kingdom is being described, it confirms the timing is for when Jesus' future 2nd coming happens. No brainer. So... the days of these kings place the kingdoms of the five pieces of the beast statue being 'together' at the end in the days just prior to Christ's future return. It's that kingdom God will setup that shall never be destroyed in place of the beast that sets this for the end time.
Dan.2:45:
"the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands," = means God's Hand in that stone. It is put for Lord Jesus Christ, the Stone which the builders rejected. This is a reference back to the "stone" first mentioned in Dan.2:34. Lord Jesus when He returns will end the Rev.13 one-world beast kingdom that will involve all five pieces of the Daniel 2 beast statue.
"that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold;" = reference back to Dan.2:35 about all those five pieces of the beast statue being broken "together" when the "stone" smites it upon its feet.
The first four were broken a long time ago. Only the ten toes of clay and iron that are mixed is left. The ten toes equate w/ the ten horns of the 4th beast of Dan. 7, which was "never" Rome and the ten horns/crowns of the beast of Rev. 13 which isn't Rome either. That last 10 confederacy (made up of nations from Rome's eastern empire which consisted of the four previous kings, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome) will be destroyed at Armageddon, who btw, will be headquartered in Jerusalem and the A/C is who the rest of the nations are coming to fight against having sickened of his rule and supposed authority.
Modern day Rome has nothing to do with Islamic countries like Medo-Persia (Iran, Iraq), nor Babylon (Iraq), nor modern Greece (they have their own Orthodox Greek Church patriarch that does not bow to the pope of Rome).
Ezekiel 38 gives us the list of nations that will come up against Israel on the last day. It will be Russia ("chief prince"), Persia (put for modern day Iran, Iraq), Gomer (put for old Soviet satellite nations like Georgia), Libya (a confirmed radical Islamic state supported by Russia), Ethiopia (which today's countries like Sudan and Somalia were part of the old Ethiopia in Ezekiel's day); Togarmah (old region of Cappadocia, the area of Turkey today, which is an Islamic nation even though joined with NATO).
The ten horns of Revelation 17, which are ten kings, suggest their power will be over ten regional areas of the 'whole'... earth, and not be from just one location like the EU or Rome. Along with Jesus showing the "seven heads" represent "seven mountains" suggests geographic areas of the 'whole'... earth also, like seven continents. The Revelation 13 declaration of that beast is about a kingdom that will be over ALL nations and peoples for 42 months. It will involve ALL religions like Paul showed in 2 Thessalonians 2:4. And the specific "man of sin" Paul revealed will not be a pope, but will be a deceptive mimic of The Messiah Jesus Christ, the strongest deception that has ever been, or ever will be, for this present world.
The way I see its structure per both the Books of Daniel and Revelation is like this...
[---------------The Antichrist-false Messiah in Jerusalem--------------]
[-------3 kings subdued but over a triparte division of the earth)-----]
[------------------------7 kings (over 7 "mountains")-------------------]
The 3 kings out of the 10 that are subdued by the "another" king of Daniel 9:24, is about the final Antichrist, a false-Messiah in Jerusalem which is the "beast" (king) that the ten kings give their power to per Revelation 17:12-13.
So that cannot be about a Catholic pope, for no pope will be crowned king of Israel in Jerusalem by the deceived Jews.
I never said, modern Rome had anything to do w/ these prophecies. The majority of the nations you mentioned were at some point historically ruled over by Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus/Darius, Artaxerxes, Alexander then his four generals and a host of different Roman leaders. Personally, I believe Ez. 38 to be post mill along w/ most of Zech. 14.
The battle with Gog/Magog after the future millennium is a different battle against a different host than Ezekiel 38. And it's easy to tell the difference.
In the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog it's about a host that comes out of the northern quarters. But after the Millennium in Revelation 20 it is about those who come out of the four corners of the earth.
In Ezekiel 38, Gog/Magog will involve a group of specific nations coming against Israel. After the Millennium Gog/Magog will come after the beloved city (Jerusalem) where the "camp of the saints" will already be established. That's a big sign, because still today in the nation state of Israel the majority of the Jews there still reject Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ.
Rev 20:7-9
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
KJV
The only way I might be persuaded EZ. 38 is not post mill is when the vss. 8 & 11 have been true for at least a decade.
Ezekiel 38:8 & 11 are not pointing to the nation state of Israel, because Jerusalem is not a land of "unwalled villigages" that dwells safely. It's like the wild west there, the Jews have to carry weapons while walking down the street. The Arabs almost conquered Israel in the 1973 war.
I keep trying to remind my Christian brethren to not be slack in studying their Old Testament Scriptures, because per God's Word there are TWO Israels. And I mean that literally. The one Ezekiel 38:8 & 11 is pointing to is the Israel in the West that make up the western Christian nations.
In Genesis 35, God said He would make Jacob's seed "a nation, and a company of nations". In Genesis 48 that promise was transferred to Ephraim who was to become "a multitude of nations", and his brother Manasseh would also become "great." Those prophecies involved the scattering of all 12 tribes of Israel, but particularly the ten northern tribes which God scattered first. They would become the founders of the western Christian nations.
It's the western Christian nations which dwell safely today, without walls, especially the United States, Canada, Europe, Australia, New Zealand, etc. They represent the Israel of the West along with its Christian nation allies. And that is who Russia and its radical Ishmaelite allies are preparing to attack per Ezekiel 38. Armageddon is a separate battle to take place in the middle east. Thus both Israels will be attacked on the last day when Jesus steps in.
Ezekiel 39:5 says that great army that will come out of the north will fall upon the "open field", meaning a barren area of the earth, not the holy land. From the start of the Book of Ezekiel, God said He made Ezekiel a "watchman" unto the "house of Israel", which that house is put for the northern ten tribes which God scattered from their captivity in Assyria to Asia Minor and Europe, from which came the founders of the United States and Canada.
Your quote, "are not pointing to the nation state of Israel, because Jerusalem is not a land of "unwalled villigages" that dwells safely. It's like the wild west there, the Jews have to carry weapons while walking down the street. The Arabs almost conquered Israel in the 1973 war." That was exactly my point but that is the way Israel will be described at the end of the millennium "before" satan is loosed again, because it is indeed speaking of the nation of Israel as most of the OT prophecies do.
I have to disagree with you, especially your last statement.
The Old Testament gives end time prophecy to both, the "house of Judah" (the Israel state in the middle east you refer to), AND... to the "house of Israel" (the ten scattered tribes that God showed what He would do to in the Book of Hosea, which Apostle Paul also quoted to Gentile believers in Romans 9).
I keep trying to get brethren to do that homework in the Old Testament Scriptures about the two houses when God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms, never to be rejoined again to this day (1 Kings 11 forward). Without understanding that part of Israel's history one will keep making the error of thinking only the nation state of Israel in the middle east represents God's Israel. No, not even close, as the "house of Judah" represents only the 3 tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, and a small remnant of the ten tribes that rejected Jeroboam's calf idol worship, and then the rest of the "house of Judah" is made up of foreigners.
According to Rev. 7, God is going to unite all twelve of them back into "one" house before the millennial era, but there are a couple of changes. God knows how much dna is required for his purposes and He'll gather them accordingly.
Many mistake who the actual 144,000 of Israel in Rev.7 are. It goes back to understanding about the two 'houses' again to rightly interpret that. Then there's the revelation there in Rev.7 that a couple of the tribes of Israel are left out, but then put back in, in final per Ezekiel 47-48.
The 144,000 of Rev.7 --
"house of Judah" (the Jews):
Judah
Benjamin
Levi
"house of Israel" (ten northern tribes):
Joseph
Manasses
Reuben
Gad
Aser
Nepthali
Simeon
Issachar
Zabulon
Notice the tribes of Dan and Ephraim are left out. Ephraim is substituted by Joseph.
The gathering of both 'houses' back together again is not about the flesh. It is about one's 'spirit' in the Promise by Faith. Those born of the seed that still reject Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ will not be joined back together. Christ's elect that reign with Him in that time will be made up of many peoples as one body under Jesus, and only they will be allowed to approach Christ at that time, and serve Him at His table.
Ez. 40-46 are the plans for the 2nd temple IF Israel repented sufficiently enough, Ez. 43:10-11. They did not, thus they had to settle for a lesser one. God knew they wouldn't but if they had, the millennial era would have begun at that point. Ez. 47-48 is a separate millennial era prophecy and the change of the two tribes simply wasn't made known to Ezekial. The 144,000 are exactly who Jesus said they are and there is no reason to try to spiritualize a literal truth.
No, no, no, you cannot just slap that Ezekiel 40-47 Scripture back to past history when a small remnant of the "house of Judah" returned to Jerusalem from their Babylon captivity. Those Ezekiel 40 thru 47 Chapters are all future... events that have never to this day had any application in history.
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