When Jesus "took away" your sin, did He leave behind the source, the sin nature?

1stCenturyLady · Monday at 8:04 PM

MatthewG said:
According to the New Testament, when Jesus “took away” sin, He dealt with both the guilt of sin and the power of sin — but the sin nature (the flesh) is not removed from the believer in this life. Instead, it is crucified, rendered powerless, and no longer your master, though it still exists until resurrection.

What Jesus actually removed

• The guilt of sin — “There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Romans 8:1).
• The penalty of sin — “He bore our sins in His body on the tree” (1 Peter 2:24).
• The dominion of sin — “Sin shall not have dominion over you” (Romans 6:14).

These are objective, completed realities.

What Jesus did not remove (yet)

Scripture is clear that the sin nature (the flesh) still exists in believers:

• Paul says, “I see another law in my members warring against the law of my mind” (Romans 7:23).
• He warns believers not to “let sin reign in your mortal body” (Romans 6:12).
• He says the flesh and Spirit “are in conflict” (Galatians 5:17).

If the sin nature were gone, none of these warnings would make sense.

So what changed?

The New Testament teaches that the sin nature is:

• Crucified (Romans 6:6)
• Rendered powerless (same verse: “that the body of sin might be destroyed,” meaning deprived of power)
• No longer your master (Romans 6:14)
• Opposed by the Spirit (Galatians 5:16–18)

But it is not eradicated until resurrection (Romans 8:23).

The best way to summarize it

Jesus removed the condemnation of sin and broke the power of sin,
but the presence of sin remains until glorification.

This is why believers can still struggle — but not as slaves.

I see you've been taught that the body holds sin in it. Jesus taught us to be perfect. You haven't been taught what it means to be actually born again of the Spirit. That is now while we are alive and has NOTHING to do with our body and why our nature can be cleansed from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS now. A born again Christian is a new creation. When purified we have no more consciousness of sin, Hebrews 10:2. Compare that with Romans 7:14-25 that is the life of someone under the Old Covenant law as Paul had been when he was a Pharisee and was very aware of sin.

ProDeo · 2026-06-02T04:21:31-0500

marks said:
I'm just pointing out that the text does not tell us where that additional wording originated, whether with Eve, or Adam (the first "fence law"?), or another source. Where Scripture is silent we should likewise remain silent, unless we are prefacing that something is purely our own speculation.

Much love!

Does it show imperfection or not?

Important to understand.

Lizbeth · 2026-06-02T07:00:18-0500

1stCenturyLady said:
If you are finished with your ad hominems, let me teach you again because you've not repeated what I teach in your scorn, I don't commit sins unto death; I can't. The desire for them were cleansed when my nature was cleansed. But I do commit sins not unto death, especially frustration with those who do not give Jesus credit that He has made them just as sinless/righteous as He's made me at a time in my life when I couldn't stop myself from sinning. In fact, they scorn the doctrine of sinless perfection, even though Jesus preached it. But I've never heard anyone preach that in my life, except maybe I have come the closest, but I sure have seen people taught to scorn it. Are you still ignorant of the difference between sinlessness and perfection? It is the same difference between righteousness and holiness and there are verses that support the differences. Even Catholics who went off the rails in idolatry know the difference between the two types of sins. Most Protestants believe "sin is sin" period. They also believe their past, present and future sins unto death are forgiven, though they aren't smart enough to know only our past sins unto death were taken away when born again. Present and future sins that are cleansed after that are only unintentional sins not unto death, not willful sins but they are ignorant of that crucial factor.

Sinlessness is not perfection. Sinlessness is righteousness not holiness and only deals with sins unto death. Holiness would be sinless perfection of both types of sins, but that would be late in life when you are not only free from sins unto death from the point of being born again, and Jesus has also finished maturing ALL the fruit of the Spirit, and only He knows when He is finished. I do not think I'm perfect by any means, but only Jesus knows is my righteous indignation is a sin, but I doubt it as Jesus was filled with it when He turned over the tables of the money changers.

There is a lot to consider with all these things. If you don't mind me butting into the conversation, it seems to me that sin is sin in that it all proceeds from the same main source whether wilful or inadvertent. But I do agree that the Lord treats them differently. We are covered for, and the Lord longsuffers, our inadvertent unintentional sins while we are seeking to be rid of them, whereas if one keeps on wilfully sinning, there is no more sacrifice for such sins, committed knowingly and deliberately, unless one repents of them. Christians are able to and sometimes do commit such sins and that is the reason we are warned in scripture against falling away and that sin hardens the heart, etc.

God gives different gifts/graces to different ones. In your case it appears He delivered you from adultery and the particular source or demon responsible for that bondage. But not everyone has that particular issue when they are born again....God seems to deliver different souls from different things at the time of salvation, from the many various testimonies I've heard. Thankfully in my case I already had an aversion to adultery even before I was saved, but thought nothing of lying when it suited my purposes, and swearing, and fornication.....which all ceased after receiving Christ. The Holy Spirit does bridle us from the major sins in a general way, think I can agree with that.....but it seems to still remain possible for a believer to take the bit in their teeth and run amuck if they choose to rebel and override the bridle and God-given conscience. People can still potentially fall away unfortunately. One can choose to either walk after the Spirit or walk after the flesh, or put another way in scripture, sow to the Spirit which leads to life or sow to the flesh which leads to destruction.

Davy · 2026-06-02T07:14:49-0500

1stCenturyLady said:
Someone who is finally born again of the Spirit. I went to church for 30 years before I was born again of the Spirit and lost the desire to commit sins against the commandments of God. That makes us righteous/sinless, but not holy/perfect. Next, comes the long process of maturing in all of the fruit of the Spirit one at a time towards perfection. It is these small imperfections that made Paul say he wasn't perfect yet, but his last letter implied he finally made it.

Yes, we know all that, BUT... we still MUST recognize that we are not yet 'perfect' literally, but can only be COUNTED as perfect in our walk with Christ. If this were not so then we would no longer need Jesus Christ. Do you still need Jesus Christ in your life? I think you'd say definitely yes to that, as all true believers would.

And because we are not yet made 'perfect' because our redemption is not yet final, we still have to deal with the 'potential' for sin that these flesh bodies cause. And when we do... discover we have slipped up in a sin, Jesus told us to repent and ask Him forgiveness and move on serving Him. That is what the 1 John 1 Scripture is about. And it is what Communion with Christ is about, which we are to do as often as we feel we need it.

1stCenturyLady · 2026-06-02T07:55:27-0500

Lizbeth said:
There is a lot to consider with all these things. If you don't mind me butting into the conversation, it seems to me that sin is sin in that it all proceeds from the same main source whether wilful or inadvertent. But I do agree that the Lord treats them differently. We are covered for, and the Lord longsuffers, our inadvertent unintentional sins while we are seeking to be rid of them, whereas if one keeps on wilfully sinning, there is no more sacrifice for such sins, committed knowingly and deliberately, unless one repents of them. Christians are able to and sometimes do commit such sins and that is the reason we are warned in scripture against falling away and that sin hardens the heart, etc.

God gives different gifts/graces to different ones. In your case it appears He delivered you from adultery and the particular source or demon responsible for that bondage. But not everyone has that particular issue when they are born again....God seems to deliver different souls from different things at the time of salvation, from the many various testimonies I've heard. Thankfully in my case I already had an aversion to adultery even before I was saved, but thought nothing of lying when it suited my purposes, and swearing, and fornication.....which all ceased after receiving Christ. The Holy Spirit does bridle us from the major sins in a general way, think I can agree with that.....but it seems to still remain possible for a believer to take the bit in their teeth and run amuck if they choose to rebel and override the bridle and God-given conscience. People can still potentially fall away unfortunately. One can choose to either walk after the Spirit or walk after the flesh, or put another way in scripture, sow to the Spirit which leads to life or sow to the flesh which leads to destruction.

Good thoughts and you have a heart for what is truth, and not just hating me for bringing up the truth like a few on the forums over the years who have never been brought out of their easy greasy grace theology they cling to to justify themselves and their pleasures.

As for our free will that got Adam in trouble, let me show you a couple of verses that show what you are saying.

1 John 5:18 " We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

1 Jhn 3: 1-3 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

Romans 6 our of the KJV always left be confused growing up, but then when I was older and born again I happened to read it out of The Living Bible and finally I saw in writing what I knew happened to me the night I was born again when I literally felt the heaviness of sin lift out of my nature..

Romans 6: Should we keep on sinning when we don’t have to? For sin’s power over us was broken when we became Christians and were baptized to become a part of Jesus Christ; through his death the power of your sinful nature was shattered. 4 Your old sin-loving nature was buried with him by baptism when he died; and when God the Father, with glorious power, brought him back to life again, you were given his wonderful new life to enjoy.

Lizbeth · 2026-06-02T09:07:21-0500

1stCenturyLady said:
Good thoughts and you have a heart for what is truth, and not just hating me for bringing up the truth like a few on the forums over the years who have never been brought out of their easy greasy grace theology they cling to to justify themselves and their pleasures.

As for our free will that got Adam in trouble, let me show you a couple of verses that show what you are saying.

1 John 5:18 " We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

1 Jhn 3: 1-3 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

Romans 6 our of the KJV always left be confused growing up, but then when I was older and born again I happened to read it out of The Living Bible and finally I saw in writing what I knew happened to me the night I was born again when I literally felt the heaviness of sin lift out of my nature..

Romans 6: Should we keep on sinning when we don’t have to? For sin’s power over us was broken when we became Christians and were baptized to become a part of Jesus Christ; through his death the power of your sinful nature was shattered. 4 Your old sin-loving nature was buried with him by baptism when he died; and when God the Father, with glorious power, brought him back to life again, you were given his wonderful new life to enjoy.

Yes, the bondage/dominion of sin left you, could we say...? Sin shall no longer have dominion....praise the Lord. And amen, keeping ourselves, purifying ourselves etc.....we have our part to play, though it is by grace and not in our own strength. For example, we mortify the deeds of the flesh, but it is through the spirit:

Rom 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Col 3:5
Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry

God works in us both to will and to do. Both the willingness and the doing are by His strength and to His glory. Some things are easier to let go of, but bondages involve a more difficult battle and need a greater intervention by the Lord, I believe. I think of bondages like the quail that the children of Israel craved....God let them have their fill of it until they were thoroughly sick of it and it was coming out their nostrils, lol. That is so that once delivered they will not be so tempted to return to the folly.

I don't like bickering.....people can often misunderstand what is being said, too, because we all have our own way of putting things into words. We do need to have grace one for another and allow for that space in case someone is just expressing things a bit differently than we might.

marks · 2026-06-02T10:06:35-0500

ProDeo said:
Does it show imperfection or not?

Important to understand.

What do you mean?

marks · 2026-06-02T11:17:44-0500

Lizbeth said:
If you don't mind me butting into the conversation, it seems to me that sin is sin in that it all proceeds from the same main source whether wilful or inadvertent.

Absolutely true. This notion of parsing sins, some OK and some not OK, to me is absurd. It's not about a list of behaviors that is prohibited and another list that is frowned upon, and everything else is OK.

All that is not of faith is sin. The good that you know to do and don't do, this is sin. Our sin isn't determined by whether we are acting out this list of things or that list, rather, are we living/walking in the Spirit, or according to the flesh.

Lizbeth said:
We are covered for, and the Lord longsuffers, our inadvertent unintentional sins while we are seeking to be rid of them, whereas if one keeps on wilfully sinning, there is no more sacrifice for such sins, committed knowingly and deliberately, unless one repents of them. Christians are able to and sometimes do commit such sins and that is the reason we are warned in scripture against falling away and that sin hardens the heart, etc.

I suggest to you that Hebrews 12 speaks a different way, that if we need help, if we don't just stop the wrong we do, God has promised - promised - to correct us, and has guaranteed that His correction will be effective.

Much love!

1stCenturyLady · 2026-06-02T11:47:44-0500

Davy said:
Yes, we know all that, BUT... we still MUST recognize that we are not yet 'perfect' literally, but can only be COUNTED as perfect in our walk with Christ. If this were not so then we would no longer need Jesus Christ. Do you still need Jesus Christ in your life? I think you'd say definitely yes to that, as all true believers would.

And because we are not yet made 'perfect' because our redemption is not yet final, we still have to deal with the 'potential' for sin that these flesh bodies cause. And when we do... discover we have slipped up in a sin, Jesus told us to repent and ask Him forgiveness and move on serving Him. That is what the 1 John 1 Scripture is about. And it is what Communion with Christ is about, which we are to do as often as we feel we need it.

The difference between a born again Christian and a Christian in name only who has not yet been born again has to do with sins unto death. A sinner NEEDS Jesus and is part of today's church doctrine. A born again Christian to whom the desire to commit sins unto death has been TAKEN AWAY completely, cleansing them of all unrighteousness, is that we HAVE Jesus inside of us. See the difference? Romans 8:9. Cast aside all doctrines of man and read the Bible carefully and very slowly. Let the Spirit penetrate you as He is the Spirit of Truth.

Let me explain the difference between righteousness and holiness, Revelation 22:11. 1 John 3 has to do only with righteousness and sins unto death called lawlessness (vs. 4) against the LAWS OF GOD. Righteousness is not about mature fruit, nor do committing minor infractions called sins not unto death make us less righteous as long as you are walking in the Spirit. (Read Romans 8:1 and compare the NKJV or KJV with the corrupted modern versions like even NASB. The modern versions remove the condition. A righteous person with the righteousness of Jesus is for real, not a lie we need to tell ourselves (God is not the author of lies) as some teach imputed righteousness. This is why the word "cover" or "covered" does not apply to Jesus, but only the blood of bulls and goats where the sin remains. Only "taken away" should refer to what Jesus does in us. That is the desire also. And why we are new creations with a brand new clean nature. John 15:3. This is why the truth is a born again Christian does NOT have a sin nature. It was crucified and BURIED. It is no longer part of us, like a tombstone attached by an ankle bracelet. A new creation was resurrected in Christ. By the way, immature fruit of the Spirit we are not even aware of called unintentional sins. And anything not of faith is sin, because it is KNOWN. Not unintentional.

Holiness on the other hands has nothing to do with sins unto death, because they are already taken away when made righteous. It has to do with the maturing of all the fruit of the Spirit. That is the end goal. Not just righteous, but holy. Peter says about those who stop at righteousness and not the maturing of the fruit of the Spirit in 2 Peter 1:9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

cc @Lizbeth

ProDeo · 2026-06-02T12:45:19-0500

marks said:
What do you mean?

Eve by adding to what God said to Adam was wrong, being wrong does not necessarily mean sin, but imperfection is a good word. We like A&E are supposed to live in Paradise in the presence of God in afterlife, are we then still imperfect? Rev 22:2 implies so.

Secondly, while Eve sinned first why does Paul blames Adam and not Eve, can you answer that ?

Rom 5:14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

1Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

Maybe these kind of questions don't have much of a priority to you, to me they are.

marks · 2026-06-02T13:24:37-0500

ProDeo said:
Eve by adding to what God said to Adam was wrong, being wrong does not necessarily mean sin, but imperfection is a good word. We like A&E are supposed to live in Paradise in the presence of God in afterlife, are we then still imperfect? Rev 22:2 implies so.

How do you know it was Eve that is responsible for the part, "nor touch it"? How do you know Adam didn't add that? Or even that God may have reiterated His command, and even Himself added those words?

I suggest that this information isn't given, as we do well to not base any doctrine or conclusions on our own speculations.

If in fact God had not said those words, and Eve said that He had, having made it up herself, that would be lying, although no command had been given against lying.

ProDeo said:
Secondly, while Eve sinned first why does Paul blames Adam and not Eve, can you answer that ?

Rom 5:14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

1Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

Maybe these kind of questions don't have much of a priority to you, to me they are.

Scripture speaks of Levi paying tithes to Melchizedek, being in the loins of Abraham. This shows us Humanity all contained in Adam in his creation, unfolding over the generations. When God created Adam, He created Man, and when Adam fell, Man fell, being in the loins of Adam. Scripture likewise speaks in terms of Eve having been deceived, but not so Adam. So that Eve was mistaken, but Adam was disobedient.

There is actually no record of God giving that same command to Eve. She repeated it (modified) to the serpent, so we know she heard about it, but as far as what we read, God commanded Adam to not eat from that tree, and when Adam did eat, God held Adam responsible for his transgression.

For myself, I'm interested in everything in the Bible.

Much love!

Behold · 2026-06-02T14:41:21-0500

1stCenturyLady said:
When purified we have no more consciousness of sin,

I keep sensing that you are trying to connect the old rotten "pentecostal" "2nd work of Grace".. nonsense into some idea you have of being "purified".

So, if that is true, then put that away, as its a false doctrine, that is strictly from the imagination of deceptive Pentecostalism, that is built emtirely on the FALSE PREMISE that the "Acts of the Apostles"...(The book of Acts) is what "every Christian should be doing.
So, this is the theological nonsense that you find in the Assembly of God (Pentecostal-Charismtic) Word of Faith teachings that is strictly false.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Behold · 2026-06-02T14:42:37-0500

"work out your Salvation" = Get your Faith RIGHT

Reader, The fact is...... we DO receive from God a new nature, a divine nature that you can read about in 2nd Peter.......but its also a fact that the Galatian Christians received it, and they later became "bewitched" and 'in the flesh".......utterly carnally minded. The "tongue tallking"...

www.christianityboard.com

MatthewG · 2026-06-02T15:33:54-0500

1stCenturyLady said:
I see you've been taught that the body holds sin in it. Jesus taught us to be perfect. You haven't been taught what it means to be actually born again of the Spirit. That is now while we are alive and has NOTHING to do with our body and why our nature can be cleansed from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS now. A born again Christian is a new creation. When purified we have no more consciousness of sin, Hebrews 10:2. Compare that with Romans 7:14-25 that is the life of someone under the Old Covenant law as Paul had been when he was a Pharisee and was very aware of sin.

I appreciate you sharing your perspective. I can tell you’ve learned a great deal from your own experiences, and I respect that.

From my understanding of Scripture, the idea that the physical body contains sin is something many people are taught, but it isn’t what Jesus or the apostles ultimately emphasized. Jesus called us to “be perfect” (Matthew 5:48), and the New Testament teaches that being born again of the Spirit is a present reality, not something tied to the physical body.

A person who is truly born of the Spirit becomes a new creation, and Scripture says that God is able to “cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9). Hebrews 10:2 even describes a purified believer as having no more consciousness of sin.

That stands in contrast to Romans 7:14–25, which reflects Paul’s experience under the Old Covenant, when he was still a Pharisee and deeply aware of sin’s power. That passage describes bondage, not the freedom Jesus brings.

From my perspective, what I’ve shared aligns with what the Bible indicates about the new birth and the work of Christ.

As for me personally, sin is not something I live in fear of. Jesus has already dealt with that on my behalf. When I fall short or act in a way that is unkind, controlling, or demeaning, I’m made aware of it, and I correct it.

Life itself has been a significant teacher for me, and I continue to grow through it.

1stCenturyLady · 2026-06-02T16:48:21-0500

MatthewG said:
I appreciate you sharing your perspective. I can tell you’ve learned a great deal from your own experiences, and I respect that.

From my understanding of Scripture, the idea that the physical body contains sin is something many people are taught, but it isn’t what Jesus or the apostles ultimately emphasized. Jesus called us to “be perfect” (Matthew 5:48), and the New Testament teaches that being born again of the Spirit is a present reality, not something tied to the physical body.

A person who is truly born of the Spirit becomes a new creation, and Scripture says that God is able to “cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9). Hebrews 10:2 even describes a purified believer as having no more consciousness of sin.

That stands in contrast to Romans 7:14–25, which reflects Paul’s experience under the Old Covenant, when he was still a Pharisee and deeply aware of sin’s power. That passage describes bondage, not the freedom Jesus brings.

From my perspective, what I’ve shared aligns with what the Bible indicates about the new birth and the work of Christ.

As for me personally, sin is not something I live in fear of. Jesus has already dealt with that on my behalf. When I fall short or act in a way that is unkind, controlling, or demeaning, I’m made aware of it, and I correct it.

Life itself has been a significant teacher for me, and I continue to grow through it.

I see you have grown in knowledge since you first came to us. The only thing you are holding on to is your statement: "the sin nature (the flesh) is not removed from the believer in this life. Instead, it is crucified, rendered powerless, and no longer your master, though it still exists until resurrection."

No, dear, the sin nature (the old man) has been crucified and BURIED. You do not have a corpse living inside you. You have a new creation living inside of you. Study Romans 6 and 8

MatthewG · 2026-06-02T17:02:28-0500

1stCenturyLady said:
I see you have grown in knowledge since you first came to us. The only thing you are holding on to is your statement: "the sin nature (the flesh) is not removed from the believer in this life. Instead, it is crucified, rendered powerless, and no longer your master, though it still exists until resurrection."

No, dear, the sin nature (the old man) has been crucified and BURIED. You do not have a corpse living inside you. You have a new creation living inside of you. Study Romans 6 and 8

Thank you for your response. I appreciate your confidence in the work Christ has done in us, and I agree wholeheartedly that the old man was crucified with Christ and that we are made a new creation. My point is not to deny that reality, but to distinguish between what Scripture says is positionally finished and what it says is still presently experienced.

Paul teaches both truths side by side:

The old man was crucified (Romans 6:6).
Yet believers are still instructed, “Do not let sin reign in your mortal body” (Romans 6:12).
And he acknowledges an ongoing conflict between flesh and Spirit (Galatians 5:17).

If the “old man” and the “flesh” were identical and fully gone, these warnings would be unnecessary.

Romans 6 and 8 actually support this distinction:

Romans 6 describes the old man crucified—a completed act.
Romans 8 describes the flesh still present, opposing the Spirit, and something we must “put to death” daily.

So when I say the sin nature is “crucified, rendered powerless, and no longer our master,” I’m affirming exactly what Paul teaches:

Its rule is broken, but its presence remains until resurrection.

I’m not holding onto an old belief—I’m simply trying to honor the full tension of Scripture rather than collapse one truth into the other.

Linda · 2026-06-02T17:28:11-0500

quietthinker said:
When Jesus "took away" your sin, did He leave behind the source, the sin nature?
Yes Ma'am, my sin nature seems to grow and grow. For sure, things I used to engage I don't these days BUT those things (sin) of which I was unconscious then, now come into my consciousness. The closer I get to Jesus the more I see a prodigal who finds the pig pen unattractive.

Why give rise to the sin nature by saying
It grows and grows when in fact, it doesnt,
When we read Pauls writings we see that
The race is always in existence, but it is
In no way implied that its got the best of
Us, especially when Paul said, thanks be
To Jesus Christ for the strength and the
Determination to become a disciple which
Increases our faith in its growing over that
Nature, as being “ in the lead”, its not
Ever going to overcome the faithful, and
Thats where believers must boast.

True enough, our sin nature is always there,
As are old articles of clothing we Choose
To no longer wear, and we notice theres
No struggle over that, point being, dont
Give the sin nature the dominance when
Its Our Choice, and Nothing we cant say
NO to…

Its a nature, but it doesnt define who we are.

It really means We dont choose it or we do,
Its as simple as that!

1stCenturyLady · 2026-06-02T19:34:32-0500

MatthewG said:
My point is not to deny that reality, but to distinguish between what Scripture says is positionally finished and what it says is still presently experienced.

MatthewG said:
Paul teaches both truths side by side:

The old man was crucified (Romans 6:6).

Yet believers are still instructed, “Do not let sin reign in your mortal body” (Romans 6:12).

We cannot commit a sin unto death, UNLESS, we do not "keep" ourselves, because we just don't want to. A nonChristian wants to. But it does say that one born of God does keep themselves 1 John 5:18. Righteous desires from God replace old desires. And the more mature we are in Christ, the easier it becomes and the less warnings we need. Paul is addressing immature Christians, and maybe Christians that so far are in name only that must be born again of the Spirit, and he tells them what a true Christian does. One thing we must do is know the Bible and not let false teachers sway us. Just because all desire to commit a lawless sin has been taken away, (that is the point), we may have to abandon old friends and their lifestyles. What I like and that made me finally understand Romans 6, which used to be hard for me to understand, was The Living Bible said, "why sin when you don't have to? That explained to a tee what I had experienced with the heaviness of sin supernaturally lifted out of my body and I felt light as a feather and there was no struggle to not sin. I remember looking down at the floor to see if my feet were still on the floor.

Read this in 2 Peter 2
18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty (freedom from the law, not freedom from sin), they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into ]bondage. 20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

What do you think Peter meant by the part I highlighted?

MatthewG said:
And he acknowledges an ongoing conflict between flesh and Spirit (Galatians 5:17).

Romans 7:25 about being under the Law before becoming a Christian is what Galatians 5:17 means. "So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin." Before I knew what Galatians 5:17 meant I was very confused as it didn't seem possible, so I prayed and asked God what's wrong with this verse, and He immediately spoke to me and simply said, the 's' is small. Thus, He was telling me the Holy Spirit in us does not fight with the flesh because when we have the Spirit we are not even in the flesh. Romans 8:9. And that is what Romans 7:25 said. The spirit in Galatians 5:17 is our mind. It is simply a publisher's error. (So far, I've found four from Thomas Nelson Publishing.)

MatthewG said:
If the “old man” and the “flesh” were identical and fully gone, these warnings would be unnecessary.

Romans 6 and 8 actually support this distinction:

Romans 6 describes the old man crucified—a completed act.

Romans 8 describes the flesh still present, opposing the Spirit, and something we must “put to death” daily.

Romans 8 does not show the flesh present when we have the Spirit of God. Paul is showing the difference.

See verses 8-9
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. (unsaved)
9 But you are NOT in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

1stCenturyLady · 2026-06-02T19:58:12-0500

Behold said:
I keep sensing that you are trying to connect the old rotten "pentecostal" "2nd work of Grace".. nonsense into some idea you have of being "purified".

So, if that is true, then put that away, as its a false doctrine, that is strictly from the imagination of deceptive Pentecostalism, that is built emtirely on the FALSE PREMISE that the "Acts of the Apostles"...(The book of Acts) is what "every Christian should be doing.
So, this is the theological nonsense that you find in the Assembly of God (Pentecostal-Charismtic) Word of Faith teachings that is strictly false.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Behold, you must not know a lot about Pentecostalism because, when it comes to sin, they are just as in error as any other Protestant denomination. Catholics less so, but still in error. And the holiness doctrine was mostly what we don't do in our own power. What I believe does not come from any denomination, but knowing my own experience and coming across Scriptures over the years that verify that what I experienced and the supernaturalness of it was definitely from God. The latest one was Hebrews 10:2. I was so excited as I always am when I see something new to me.

How have you been? I haven't talked with you for a while. I hope you are safe.

MatthewG · 2026-06-03T00:34:17-0500

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I’m not really moved to change what I’ve already shared, so I don’t think we need to go back and forth endlessly. I’m simply speaking from what I see in Scripture and in daily life.

I believe, as Paul teaches, that I still wrestle with my flesh and have to “put it to death” daily. Paul says plainly that “the flesh desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh” (Galatians 5:17). That tells me the flesh is still something every believer deals with while we’re here in this physical body.

All people wrestle with the flesh in some way. It may be loud and wild when you’re young and quieter as you age, but it’s still there. That doesn’t mean I walk around thinking about sin all day. Honestly, I don’t. I’m not sin‑conscious. Christ took care of that.

Can I ask you something gently—do you think about sin every day?

And what is your purpose in these conversations if the goal is simply to negate what someone else shares, even when they’re speaking from Scripture and experience?

We are all still here in physical form. The “old man” or “old woman” is who we used to be—the person who didn’t desire Yahavah. That person is gone. But the flesh, the mortal body with its weaknesses, is still something Paul says we must deal with until resurrection (Romans 8:10–13).

I’m honestly not sure why the conversation keeps circling back in a combative way. You hold your view very tightly, but many believers see the Scriptures differently on this point.

So what exactly is the premise you’re presenting?

Are you saying you are now a sinless creature who never thinks anything wrong, never feels a fleshly pull, and never experiences the conflict Paul describes in Romans 7 and Galatians 5?

I’m asking sincerely, because I want to understand. Right now, I don’t. I wish I did.

I appreciate your response. There’s really no need to break my post into sections—I meant everything I said as a whole thought. And I believe it’s important for all of us to look at all of Scripture, not just certain verses in isolation. “The sum of Your word is truth” (Psalm 119:160).

I’ve read Romans several times over the years, so I don’t really need encouragement to revisit it. I’ve already walked through those chapters, and I keep coming to the same understanding I’ve shared a few times now. That doesn’t mean I can’t look again, but I don’t expect my conclusion to suddenly change.

If you respond, that’s great. If not, that’s completely fine too. I’m not upset, and I’m not entitled to an answer. “Let your reasonableness be known to all” (Philippians 4:5).

My hope is simply that we both continue seeking Yahavah faithfully, and that the Spirit of Christ Yeshua keeps shaping us in mercy, patience, and all the fruit He produces (Galatians 5:22–23).

Romans Road (Readings)

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