The Two Witnesses Came and Went Thousands of Years Ago

Marty fox · Jun 30, 2026

William Barton said:
Marty fox suggested:

o They had to die from their mortal bodies to enter heaven.

Generally that would be true. However the Bible says:

o By faith Enoch was *translated up* so that he should *not see death*... (Hebrews 11:5)

o And Elijah [still alive] *went up by a whirlwind into heaven.*
(2Kings 2:11)

My impression is that neither Enoch nor Elijah ever died.

Exodus 33
19 And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.

John 1
18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and[b] is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

William Barton · Jun 30, 2026

Spiritual Israelite said:
While referring to Enoch and everyone else of faith previously mentioned the author of Hebrews said this.

Hebrews 11:13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth.

Can you address this?

Spiritual Israelite noted:

<Can you address this?>
I visited Israel once, the Jews are God"s chosen people, and I honor them as such.

Spiritual Israelite said:
Why are you being so stubborn and not acknowledging what is indicated in Hebrews 11:13? Maybe you need it spelled out to you.

Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. 8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11 By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude—innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore. 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

When it says "these all died in faith" in Hebrews 11:13, it's talking about all of the previously mentioned people who had faith. That includes, Abel, Enoch, Noah, Noah's household, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Sarah. There are no exceptions given there. So, all of those people, including Enoch, died. Enoch could not possibly have ascended to the third heaven/paradise where Jesus is because Jesus said no one but Him had ever ascended to heaven (John 3:13) long after Enoch was taken and after Elijah was taken up to heaven, which must have been the first heaven (the sky). So, Enoch must have been taken to some other place on earth and Elijah must have been taken up to the first heaven (the sky) and then later came back to earth and died. That has to be the case because Hebrews 11:13 says Enoch and the rest of those who had faith that were previously mentioned all died.

Marty fox said:
Hebrews 11:13
All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth.

They had to die from their mortal bodies to enter heaven

"Jewish" is generally understood to indicate "any/every descendant of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob." The Jews are God's chosen people, and I honor them as such.

God's timing is not our timing. We think in terms of hours, days, months, years; God's timing is in terms of millennia (2Peter 3:8).

There was a rebellion in heaven, led by the Cherub Satan, and for that he was cast to earth, along with the angels that followed him (Ezekiel 28:14). Eventually he will get what is coming to him (Ezekiel 28:16).

The apostle Paul was once caught up to heaven *before he died,* and had the chance to see it, presumably much like earth (2Corinthians 12:2). IMO heaven is not in the sky, rather heaven is another dimension, presumably much like what we see in our own dimension.

There will be a new heavens and a new earth--no disease, no death, no more tears (Revelation 21:4).

ewq1938 · Jun 30, 2026

Marty fox said:
Exodus 33
19 And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.

Jacob saw God's face and lived so only sometimes can one not see God's face.

Gen 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
Gen 32:25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
Gen 32:26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
Gen 32:27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
Gen 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
Gen 32:29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Here Jacob not only wrestles with God physically, he also was allowed to see His face and live.

Marty fox said:
John 1
18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and[b] is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

This is not seeing visually but understanding/knowing God.

Clarke:

It is likely that the word seen, here, is put for known, as in Joh_3:32; 1Jo_3:2, 1Jo_3:6, and 3Jo_1:11; and this sense the latter clause of the verse seems to require: - No man, how highly soever favored, hath fully known God, at any time, in any nation or age; the only begotten Son

Marty fox · Jun 30, 2026

ewq1938 said:
Jacob saw God's face and lived so only sometimes can one not see God's face.

Gen 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
Gen 32:25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
Gen 32:26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
Gen 32:27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
Gen 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
Gen 32:29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Here Jacob not only wrestles with God physically, he also was allowed to see His face and live.

This is not seeing visually but understanding/knowing God.

Clarke:

It is likely that the word seen, here, is put for known, as in Joh_3:32; 1Jo_3:2, 1Jo_3:6, and 3Jo_1:11; and this sense the latter clause of the verse seems to require: - No man, how highly soever favored, hath fully known God, at any time, in any nation or age; the only begotten Son

I do see a difference here as it wasn't God in all of His glory as He was in human forum on the earth

William Barton · Jun 30, 2026

Spiritual Israelite said:
Why are you being so stubborn and not acknowledging what is indicated in Hebrews 11:13? Maybe you need it spelled out to you.

Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. 8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11 By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude—innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore. 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

When it says "these all died in faith" in Hebrews 11:13, it's talking about all of the previously mentioned people who had faith. That includes, Abel, Enoch, Noah, Noah's household, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Sarah. There are no exceptions given there. So, all of those people, including Enoch, died. Enoch could not possibly have ascended to the third heaven/paradise where Jesus is because Jesus said no one but Him had ever ascended to heaven (John 3:13) long after Enoch was taken and after Elijah was taken up to heaven, which must have been the first heaven (the sky). So, Enoch must have been taken to some other place on earth and Elijah must have been taken up to the first heaven (the sky) and then later came back to earth and died. That has to be the case because Hebrews 11:13 says Enoch and the rest of those who had faith that were previously mentioned all died.

Spiritual Israelite noted:

<Why are you being so stubborn.>

It's a habit. :-(

o. Yes, the Bible says the ones who died did so in faith.

o. The Bible notes that Elijah went up in a whirlwind (2Kings 2:11).

o It also notes Enoch "was not" because God took him (Genesis 5:24).

Hence I'm thinking Elijah and Enoch never died, and rather were preserved for special service.

IMO Enoch and Elijah may be the two witnesses (Revelation 11:3).

Keep in mind that death was never part of the plan, it was supposed to be eternal life. But eternal life in a fallen world is unthinkable.

Spiritual Israelite · Jun 30, 2026

William Barton said:
Yes, it says the ones who died did so in faith.

The ones it was referring to that all died are all of the people of faith that had previously been mentioned, which included Enoch.

William Barton said:
The Bible also says Elijah went up in a whirlwind (2Kings 2:11).

And what does that mean exactly? He could not have been taken up to the third heaven/paradise where Jesus was because Jesus said that no one had ascended there but Himself as of the time He spoke in John 3:13. He must have been taken up to the first heaven (the sky) at that time and then been brought to some other location on earth and then later died.

William Barton said:
The Bible also says Enoch "was not" because God took him (Genesis 5:24).

Yes, but then what happened after that? We're not told about that. It does not say that he never died at any time after that. But, Hebrews 11:13 does indicate that he died since it says all of the people of faith previously mentioned, which included Enoch, had died.

Spiritual Israelite · Jun 30, 2026

William Barton said:
Spiritual Israelite noted:

<Can you address this?>
I visited Israel once, the Jews are God"s chosen people, and I honor them as such.

What does this have to do with Hebrews 11? Also, scripture teaches that those in the church are God's chosen people. Please read this...

Romans 8:31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

Can you see here that Paul indicates that those who belong to Christ, which includes you and me, are God's chosen people? God's chosen are His people because of faith, not nationality.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.

ewq1938 · Jun 30, 2026

Marty fox said:
I do see a difference here as it wasn't God in all of His glory as He was in human forum on the earth

Couldn't that be said about the incident with Moses?

ewq1938 · Jun 30, 2026

Marty fox said:
I do see a difference here as it wasn't God in all of His glory as He was in human forum on the earth

and these:

1 Kings 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Exo 33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
Exo 33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
Exo 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

Here we see that he does have a face, has a hand, and has "back parts" of a body. Moses was not allowed to see his face, but he saw his hand and saw his "back parts".

Exo 24:9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
Exo 24:10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
Exo 24:11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

Isa 6:5 And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!”

Marty fox · Jun 30, 2026

ewq1938 said:
Couldn't that be said about the incident with Moses?

Yes but they couldn't see His face

William Barton · Jun 30, 2026

Spiritual Israelite said:
Agree. That verse couldn't be more clear. This is truly mind boggling as to why he is just completely ignoring that verse and what it indicates about every person of faith previously mentioned, which included Enoch. This is cherry picking at its worst. This is how cults interpret scripture. They draw conclusions from one verse without looking at the context of the verse and without caring whether their interpretation contradicts other verses or not. Hebrews 11:5 does NOT say Enoch never died. But, Hebrews 11:13 does. That means he died. Very simple.

He also ignores John 3:13 where Jesus said that no one but Him had ever ascended to heaven. He was talking about the third heaven/paradise where He resides. So, Enoch could not possibly have ascended to the third heaven/paradise. It had to have been the first heaven (the sky) and he must have been brought back down to the earth and later died, according to Hebrews 11:13.

o. It says *the ones who died* did so in faith (Hebrews 11:13).

o. It also says Enoch did not face death (Hebrews 11:5)

o Jesus said no one before Himself has ever been resurrected.

o "Resurrection" indicates a dead *body* coming back to life.

o A believer dies, the body goes to the grave, the soul/spirit go to heaven.

Spiritual Israelite · Jun 30, 2026

William Barton said:
o. It says *the ones who died* did so in faith (Hebrews 11:13).

Who were the ones that verse is talking about? Everyone of faith that was previously mentioned. That included Enoch. What don't you understand about this?

William Barton said:
o. It also says Enoch did not face death (Hebrews 11:5)

It does not say he never faced death. He was taken away in order to not face death at that time. That does not mean he didn't die at a later time. He had to have died because otherwise that would contradict Hebrews 11:13 and John 3:13.

William Barton said:
o Jesus said no one before Himself has ever been resurrected.

That's not what He said in John 3:13. Don't twist the text. He said no one but Him had ascended to heaven, meaning the third heaven/paradise. That includes Enoch and Elijah. And still no one but Him has physically ascended to heaven. The souls of the physically dead in Christ are there now. But, what Jesus said in John 3:13 was before His death and resurrection and long after you think that Enoch and Elijah ascended to heaven.

quietthinker · Jul 1, 2026

The Two Witnesses Came and Went Thousands of Years Ago

and ahhhh, where did they went?

William Barton · Jul 1, 2026

Marty fox said:
Exodus 33
19 And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.

John 1
18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and[b] is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

Marty Fox quoted:
<cannot see My face>

God is invisible (Colossians 1:15)

William Barton · Jul 1, 2026

ewq1938 said:
Jacob saw God's face and lived so only sometimes can one not see God's face.

Gen 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
Gen 32:25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
Gen 32:26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
Gen 32:27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
Gen 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
Gen 32:29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Here Jacob not only wrestles with God physically, he also was allowed to see His face and live

ewq1938 said:
God the Father is invisible (1Timothy 1:17).

This is not seeing visually but understanding/knowing God.

Clarke:

It is likely that the word seen, here, is put for known, as in Joh_3:32; 1Jo_3:2, 1Jo_3:6, and 3Jo_1:11; and this sense the latter clause of the verse seems to require: - No man, how highly soever favored, hath fully known God, at any time, in any nation or age; the only begotten Son

I presume the "man" that wrestled with Jacob was an angel. Angels look like men (Daniel 10:16-18).

rebuilder 454 · Jul 1, 2026

Let me guess, the op will cast down the notion that Israel became a nation in 1947-48.

Amil historicist doctrine:

Roman Catholic Church: Amillennialism is the recognized and historical eschatological doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church.

Eastern Orthodox Church: Both Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox traditions hold to an amillennial understanding of the end times.
Magisterial Protestants: Mainline Protestant traditions, including Lutherans and Anglicans, largely embrace amillennial theology.
Reformed Traditions: Many Presbyterians (such as those in the PCA or OPC) adhere to amillennialism. [1, 2, 3, 4]

Nothing new.
It is error.

Spiritual Israelite · Jul 1, 2026

rebuilder 454 said:
Let me guess, the op will cast down the notion that Israel became a nation in 1947-48.

Amil historicist doctrine:

Roman Catholic Church: Amillennialism is the recognized and historical eschatological doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church.

Eastern Orthodox Church: Both Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox traditions hold to an amillennial understanding of the end times.

Magisterial Protestants: Mainline Protestant traditions, including Lutherans and Anglicans, largely embrace amillennial theology.

Reformed Traditions: Many Presbyterians (such as those in the PCA or OPC) adhere to amillennialism. [1, 2, 3, 4]

Nothing new.
It is error.

Nothing new that you're incapable of refuting it. You're all talk.

William Barton · Jul 3, 2026

Spiritual Israelite noted:

<incapable of refuting it ("no millennium")>

"Millenium" = Greek χιλια ετη = 1000 years (2 Peter 3:8)

"...shall reign with him (Jesus) 1000 years" (Revelation 20:6)
"...when the 1000 years are ended..." (Revelation 20:7)

IMO that indicates "millennium."

Eqw1938 noted:

<Jacob saw God's face and lived>

IMO Jacob was wrestling an *angel;* angels look like men (Daniel 19:16-18).

William Barton · Jul 4, 2026

Marty fox said:
You just said "before they died"

Yes, before they died.

o. Elijah (2Kings 2:1) :

o Enoch. (Genesis 5:24):

Marty fox said:
You just said "before they died"

There's an echo in here.

William Barton · Jul 4, 2026

The two witnesses will die once.

The Two Witnesses Came and Went Thousands of Years Ago

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The Two Witnesses Came and Went Thousands of Years Ago