Never heard the Gospel = burn/torment forever and ever ??

PeterAndroz · Monday at 10:17 PM

If you are the devil, beast, false prophet or 'mark' taker then forever burn/torment it is
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
.
Yet where are the verses that teach those who NEVER HEARD or UNDERSTOOD the Gospel will suffer the same fate ?

PeterAndroz · Monday at 10:46 PM

Does a mentally disabled person who does not have the ability to understand the Gospel burn & torment forever & ever in the lake of fire because they never placed their trust in Christ ?
..
Does a child under the age of accountability also burn & torment for ever and ever in the lake of fire ?
What about an aborted fetus, do they also burn & torment for ever and ever in the lake of fire ?

Lambano · Monday at 11:13 PM

PeterAndroz said:
Does a child under the age of accountability also burn & torment for ever and ever in the lake of fire ?

I've seen estimates that 90% of adults will never accept Christ and will be thrown in the Lake of Fire.

Question: If there is an "age of accountability", would it be better to kill children before they reach it in order to save 100% from the Lake of Fire?

PeterAndroz said:
What about an aborted fetus, do they also burn & torment for ever and ever in the lake of fire ?

Question: If aborted fetuses go to heaven, does that make abortion good because it saves souls?

What the hell kind of morally-warped conclusions does Lake-of-Fire-based theology logically lead to?

PS95 · Monday at 11:26 PM

PeterAndroz said:
If you are the devil, beast, false prophet or 'mark' taker then forever burn/torment it is
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
.
Yet where are the verses that teach those who NEVER HEARD or UNDERSTOOD the Gospel will suffer the same fate ?

Who says that? God is not a monster. He always does what is right. What kind of Q is this?
Ps 9
7But the Lord shall endure forever;
He has prepared His throne for judgment.
8He shall judge the world in righteousness,
And He shall administer judgment for the peoples in uprightness.

PeterAndroz · Monday at 11:58 PM

PS95 said:
Who says that? God is not a monster. He always does what is right. What kind of Q is this?
Ps 9
7But the Lord shall endure forever;
He has prepared His throne for judgment.
8He shall judge the world in righteousness,
And He shall administer judgment for the peoples in uprightness.

The problem PS is there are 'people' out there who claim that unless you trust the Gospel you burn forever & ever in the lake of fire, so this Q is aimed at them brother.

PeterAndroz · Tuesday at 12:06 AM

Lambano said:
I've seen estimates that 90% of adults will never accept Christ and will be thrown in the Lake of Fire.

Question: If there is an "age of accountability", would it be better to kill children before they reach it in order to save 100% from the Lake of Fire?

Question: If aborted fetuses go to heaven, does that make abortion good because it saves souls?

What the hell kind of morally-warped conclusions does Lake-of-Fire-based theology logically lead to?

'age of accountability'

Deuteronomy 1:39: When God barred the Israelites from entering the Promised Land due to their rebellion, He spared their children, noting that they "had no knowledge of good or evil"
Isaiah 7:15-16: Mentions a child who will be at an age where he knows enough to "refuse the evil and choose the good"
2 Samuel 12:22-23: After King David’s infant son dies, David expresses confidence that he will go to be with the child, implying the infant's safe passage into God's presence.
.
Do you believe anyone under the 'age of accountability' will burn & torment forever & ever in the lake of fire ?
Do you believe anyone who does not have the mental capacity to accept Christ will burn & torment as above ?

quietthinker · Tuesday at 12:52 AM

PS95 said:
Who says that? God is not a monster. He always does what is right. What kind of Q is this?
Ps 9
7But the Lord shall endure forever;
He has prepared His throne for judgment.
8He shall judge the world in righteousness,
And He shall administer judgment for the peoples in uprightness.

Insist on going down the rabbit hole or for that matter, can of worms of forever burning torment, of immortal souls being punished and holes and worms is what you're gonna get.....in fact more holes and worms than sanity allows.

markalan · Tuesday at 4:28 AM

PeterAndroz said:
'age of accountability'

Deuteronomy 1:39: When God barred the Israelites from entering the Promised Land due to their rebellion, He spared their children, noting that they "had no knowledge of good or evil"
Isaiah 7:15-16: Mentions a child who will be at an age where he knows enough to "refuse the evil and choose the good"
2 Samuel 12:22-23: After King David’s infant son dies, David expresses confidence that he will go to be with the child, implying the infant's safe passage into God's presence.
.
Do you believe anyone under the 'age of accountability' will burn & torment forever & ever in the lake of fire ?
Do you believe anyone who does not have the mental capacity to accept Christ will burn & torment as above ?

As a parent who lost an infant son, the question is important to me, and you have laid it out well.

For those who die without an opportunity to hear the Gospel, Paul seems to indicate they will be judged according to conscience -

Romans 2:14-16
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Romans 1:18-20
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Grailhunter · Tuesday at 5:37 AM

PeterAndroz said:
Does a mentally disabled person who does not have the ability to understand the Gospel burn & torment forever & ever in the lake of fire because they never placed their trust in Christ ?
..
Does a child under the age of accountability also burn & torment for ever and ever in the lake of fire ?
What about an aborted fetus, do they also burn & torment for ever and ever in the lake of fire ?

You would be surprised how many young people ask these types of questions in Sunday School.
These questions and Why do bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people?
Why doesn't God talk to us now?

We don't have the answers for everything. We will just have to wait to get to Heaven to find out.
One thing for sure, Yeshua is just and fair and I am sure it will work out.

Lambano · Tuesday at 6:21 AM

markalan said:
For those who die without an opportunity to hear the Gospel, Paul seems to indicate they will be judged according to conscience -

Jesus Himself indicates that "the ethne" (the nations, Gentiles, i.e. those who are not God's people, non-believers) MAY (and I say "MAY") be vindicated (or condemned) by how they treated those whom The Son of Man considers "the least of these my brothers and sisters".

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ (Luke 25:34-40)

Yeah, yeah; I know. "Justification by works".

markalan · Tuesday at 6:31 AM

Lambano said:
Jesus Himself indicates that "the ethne" (the nations, Gentiles, i.e. those who are not God's people, non-believers) MAY (and I say "MAY") be vindicated (or condemned) by how they treated those whom The Son of Man considers "the least of these my brothers and sisters".

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ (Luke 25:34-40)

Yeah, yeah; I know. "Justification by works".

I think the verses you quoted are very relevant.
The setting is the final judgment, not salvation ... so any criticism of "justification by works" would be misplaced.

Revelation 20 indicates two resurrections ... the first resurrection for believers, and the second resurrection for everyone else ...and again we see judgment by works as in Matthew 25.

Lambano · Tuesday at 6:37 AM

markalan said:
I think the verses you quoted are very relevant.
The setting is the final judgment, not salvation ... so any criticism of "justification by works" would be misplaced.

I'm sorry; you're going to have to explain that. What do you mean by "salvation" and "justification" here?

My understanding is that "justification" is synonymous with "vindication", i.e. receiving a favorable judgment from the Judge. And "saved" versus "not saved" reflects the Judge's final judgment of Kingdom versus Fire. Kingdom = saved; Fire = not-saved.

I found NT Wright's book, Justification instructive here.

markalan · Tuesday at 6:46 AM

Lambano said:
I'm sorry; you're going to have to explain that. What do you mean by "salvation" and "justification" here?

We will probably get this thread moved because we are talking about the Bible too much :clmSmlx

I should have been clearer but I was trying to say that justification by accepting Jesus' atonement for our sins is how we receive salvation.

Those who have never heard the Gospel do not receive salvation in this sense but will appear at the second resurrection to be judged by their works, as described in Matthew 25 & Revelation 20..

Jericho · Wednesday at 11:46 AM

To quote myself:

But what about the people who never heard the gospel, one may object? Why should they go to hell for their ignorance? There are three groups of people who have ever lived. Those that have heard the gospel and accepted Christ, those who have heard the gospel and rejected Christ, and those who never heard the gospel and died in ignorance. The latter group is the one we want to focus on.

The Book of Romans reveals to us that God is revealed in nature (Rom 1:20), and each of us has a God-given conscience (Rom 2:14–15). We are all born with an innate sense of right and wrong; it’s what we do with what’s revealed to us that matters. For some, more has been revealed than to others, like those who have heard the gospel and rejected it. For them, they will be held to a higher standard. For others, like the American Indians who never heard the gospel, I believe their ignorance will be taken into consideration to a degree and grace may be granted. After all, Abraham and Moses never heard the gospel, but does anyone doubt they are in heaven now? That’s not to say that ignorance alone is enough to be saved. They will be judged on how much they knew and what they did with it. I believe grace is also given to babies, small children, the mentally handicapped (those incapable of knowing right from wrong), and anyone else who has died before the age of accountability, which varies with each individual (the concept for the age of accountability can be found in Deu 1:39, Isa 7:15-16, Rom 7:0, and 2Sa 12:22-23).

PeterAndroz · 2026-07-30T02:41:08-0500

markalan said:
As a parent who lost an infant son, the question is important to me, and you have laid it out well.

For those who die without an opportunity to hear the Gospel, Paul seems to indicate they will be judged according to conscience -

Romans 2:14-16
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Romans 1:18-20
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Hey MKL, first condolences on the loss of your infant son.
Those 2 verses would apply to those who have the ability to understand which is where I believe the 'age of accountability' comes into play.
Some people c/- mental disability may never be able to understand the teachings of Christ hence never reach that 'age'.
My understanding is that 'judgement' is only for those who hear AND understand the Gospel yet refuse it.
A fetus, severely mentally disabled person or child under that 'age' are incapable of understanding the Gospel

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Never heard the Gospel = burn/torment forever and ever ??

PeterAndroz

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PeterAndroz

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Lambano

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PS95

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PeterAndroz

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PeterAndroz

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quietthinker

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markalan

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markalan

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