Pretrib fallacies

WPM · 2026-09-15T11:56:41-0500

GeneZ said:
Aren't Christians now a new creation in Christ?
A new way of being alive, yet in a body that will die.

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.
The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 2 Corinthians 5:17

Then after what we are now, to come will be the resurrection!
No more death!
No more having to contend with our body's fallen nature as we do now!

As we are now a new creation in Christ.
Is like the earth will be during the Millennium.
Transformed for a better planet to live on.
But not everlasting.
Only 1000 years.

At present we can have peace and understanding by the power of God's grace enabling us.
But we still have the fallen nature to contend with!
That is what the first new earth represents.

In contrast to how we are now?
The Resurrection will be the second new earth...
Will never die.
No sin.
And, without end.

The Millennium is only 1000 years.
People will live that long.

Then?
It will end, just like we now die.

Two different new heavens and new earth.

Think it over.
You are now a new creation in Christ. Right?

Later you will become another kind of new creation.
The Resurrection

According to the book of Revelation the new heavens and new earth appears after the millennial period. Prove me wrong!

WPM · 2026-09-15T11:58:10-0500

GeneZ said:
That will be the final new earth.
Two different new earths will take place.
They each serve different purposes.

Read here, please... New Earth will be...

Oh! So there are 2 new heavens and new earth - would corrupt, temporal and full of sin and the other perfect, glorified and eternal? Where does it teach that in God's Book. It seems like you are making it up as you go.

William Barton · 2026-09-15T14:45:51-0500

WPM said:
What? Who taught you that? I see you present zero Scripture to support your claims - as is the Pretrib MO.

Every believer is caught up at Christ's return - all. All the wicked are destroyed. Hello! Any alternative to that is unscriptural.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3 confirms: “we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”

It is very simple what this is saying to the unindoctrinated mind. This is the end. It is over. God's people are rescued. The wicked are destroyed. There are no survivors here. We are now into eternity.

This coming is not only sudden but noisy. Christ is not coming secretly with an apologetic whisper but publicly with a triumphant shout. He appears with “with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.” This trumpet will sound and bring forth the elect from all nations. I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s Advent in glory that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies.

Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of His coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful that none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for the Pretrib theory of a subsequent 7yrs trib or some imaginary future millennium.

Jesus then concludes Matthew 24:35-41: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”

What is "that day" that Jesus refers to here in His teaching? There is only one answer: the day He just spoke about – the day and hour when "heaven and earth shall pass away." Hello! This couldn’t be clearer.

After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away,” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” What day and hour? The one and only final future climactic coming (or parousia) of our Lord. Please see the Greek word is used twice here in this passage. This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly for the lost. His arrival will surprise only those who are not prepared for it. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 confirms the finality of that day and its clear relation to the end, saying, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming [Gr. parousia]. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

This reading outlines in totally unambiguous language how the second coming of the Lord will be completely all-consummating in its nature. This final event expressly ushers in the end, and is the stage that Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and “shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.” It is the concluding end for all mankind on this scene of time, now eternity and the general judgement. Notwithstanding, we cannot fail to note the stark contrast between God’s dealing with the kingdom of God and that of the kingdom of darkness at the end. One is finally presented “up,” the other is finally put “down.” All this coincides with the one final future coming (or ‘parousia’) of the Lord.

Pre-Great-Tribulation Rapture is noted in
o John 14:2-3
o 1Corinthians 15:51-53
o 1Thessalonians 4:15-17
o Revelation 11:2
o Revelation 14:16-21.

The purpose is to remove believers from the bowl judgments (Revelation chapter16:

"Great tribulation" is noted by Jesus himself in Matthew 24:21:

"For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, and never will be."

William Barton · 2026-09-15T14:56:44-0500

WPM said:
Then, who is on earth during your millennial period?

IMO:
The basic difference is that Jesus will rule the world from Jerusalem. Check out Revelation chapters 19-22, it's easy reading.

After the millennium will come a new heavens and earth.

Spiritual Israelite · 2026-09-15T16:58:56-0500

Taken said:
John 16:
[33] These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Glory to God,
Taken

The question was where does scripture show a tribulation period occurring after the rapture? Where does that verse say anything about a tribulation period after the rapture? Nowhere. You just make things up.

Spiritual Israelite · 2026-09-15T17:03:43-0500

Taken said:
And… WHO IS “THE Church”?

It consists of the saints/saved/believers who believe in Christ and follow and obey Him with Jesus Himself as the cornerstone of the church. As described in verses like these...

Revelation 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 13:7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. 13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’ ” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”

GeneZ · 2026-09-15T17:06:14-0500

Spiritual Israelite said:
The question was where does scripture show a tribulation period occurring after the rapture? Where does that verse say anything about a tribulation period after the rapture? Nowhere. You just make things up.

Read the first three chapters of Revelation.

Note that the church is mentioned in all three up until chapter three... then no more.

Those called "saints" after the churches are no longer mentioned are those who are saved after the Rapture takes place.

William Barton · 2026-09-15T17:16:29-0500

WPM said:
What? Who taught you that? I see you present zero Scripture to support your claims - as is the Pretrib MO.

Every believer is caught up at Christ's return - all. All the wicked are destroyed. Hello! Any alternative to that is unscriptural.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3 confirms: “we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”

It is very simple what this is saying to the unindoctrinated mind. This is the end. It is over. God's people are rescued. The wicked are destroyed. There are no survivors here. We are now into eternity.

This coming is not only sudden but noisy. Christ is not coming secretly with an apologetic whisper but publicly with a triumphant shout. He appears with “with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.” This trumpet will sound and bring forth the elect from all nations. I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s Advent in glory that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies.

Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of His coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful that none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for the Pretrib theory of a subsequent 7yrs trib or some imaginary future millennium.

Jesus then concludes Matthew 24:35-41: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”

What is "that day" that Jesus refers to here in His teaching? There is only one answer: the day He just spoke about – the day and hour when "heaven and earth shall pass away." Hello! This couldn’t be clearer.

After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away,” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” What day and hour? The one and only final future climactic coming (or parousia) of our Lord. Please see the Greek word is used twice here in this passage. This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly for the lost. His arrival will surprise only those who are not prepared for it. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 confirms the finality of that day and its clear relation to the end, saying, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming [Gr. parousia]. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

This reading outlines in totally unambiguous language how the second coming of the Lord will be completely all-consummating in its nature. This final event expressly ushers in the end, and is the stage that Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and “shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.” It is the concluding end for all mankind on this scene of time, now eternity and the general judgement. Notwithstanding, we cannot fail to note the stark contrast between God’s dealing with the kingdom of God and that of the kingdom of darkness at the end. One is finally presented “up,” the other is finally put “down.” All this coincides with the one final future coming (or ‘parousia’) of the Lord.

The rapture is depicted in Revelation 14:24-16, where Jesus descends to a cloud and takes up believers.

The purpose is to remove believers from the coming battle (Revelation 19:11-21). See also

GeneZ said:
Aren't Christians now a new creation in Christ?
A new way of being alive, yet in a body that will die.

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.
The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 2 Corinthians 5:17

Then after what we are now, to come will be the resurrection!
No more death!
No more having to contend with our body's fallen nature as we do now!

As we are now a new creation in Christ.
Is like the earth will be during the Millennium.
Transformed for a better planet to live on.
But not everlasting.
Only 1000 years.

At present we can have peace and understanding by the power of God's grace enabling us.
But we still have the fallen nature to contend with!
That is what the first new earth represents.

In contrast to how we are now?
The Resurrection will be the second new earth...
Will never die.
No sin.
And, without end.

The Millennium is only 1000 years.
People will live that long.

Then?
It will end, just like we now die.

Two different new heavens and new earth.

Think it over.
You are now a new creation in Christ. Right?

Later you will become another kind of new creation.
The Resurrection

New heavens and earth are after the millenium (Revelation chapters 21, 22).

Taken · 2026-09-15T17:22:12-0500

Spiritual Israelite said:
The question was where does scripture show a tribulation period occurring after the rapture? Where does that verse say anything about a tribulation period after the rapture? Nowhere. You just make things up.

What is the Rapture?

JimKnox · 2026-09-15T17:26:00-0500

GeneZ said:
Read the first three chapters of Revelation.

Note that the church is mentioned in all three up until chapter three... then no more.

Those called "saints" after the churches are no longer mentioned are those who are saved after the Rapture takes place.

Welp; that's what lots'o'people teach but it ain't right.
That's called "an argument from silence " and is a logical fallacy.
It's probably the biggest fallacy which turned me from pretrib to midtrib.
Paul plainly said the "man of sin" must be revealed first before the rapture happens.
Daniel says that happens "in the midst of the week".
NOBODY says the rapture is BEFORE tribulation happens.

Spiritual Israelite · 2026-09-15T17:26:59-0500

GeneZ said:
Read the first three chapters of Revelation.

Note that the church is mentioned in all three up until chapter three... then no more.

Where is "the trinity" mentioned in scripture? Nowhere. But, you believe in the trinity, right? Where is "the rapture" mentioned in scripture? Nowhere. But, you believe there will be a rapture, right? This is not a valid argument you're trying to make at all. The church is most certainly mentioned after Revelation 3. Who else but those in the church are those who have the testimony of Jesus and obey Him? Who else but those in the church are called saints?

GeneZ said:
Those called "saints" after the churches are no longer mentioned are those who are saved after the Rapture takes place.

Nonsense. Everyone who is saved at any time becomes part of the church. The church is the body of Christ and consists of those who belong to Christ with Jesus Himself as the cornerstone.

Tell me, do you believe the following verse describes what will occur when the rapture occurs?

2 Thessalonians 1:10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

When we are caught up to Christ He will then "be glorified in His saints and...admired among all those who believe", right?

Taken · 2026-09-15T17:28:28-0500

Spiritual Israelite said:
It consists of the saints/saved/believers who believe in Christ and follow and obey Him with Jesus Himself as the cornerstone of the church.

Your Church description.
Which (if any) can stop being the church?

Spiritual Israelite · 2026-09-15T17:28:34-0500

Taken said:
What is the Rapture?

The rapture describes the resurrected dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain until the coming of Christ being caught up together to meet Christ in the air after He descends from heaven, as described in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17.

Taken · 2026-09-15T17:33:25-0500

Spiritual Israelite said:
The rapture describes the resurrected dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain until the coming of Christ being caught up together to meet Christ in the air after He descends from heaven, as described in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17.

Would you say the Rapture is applicable to a specific group of people?

Spiritual Israelite · 2026-09-15T17:41:05-0500

Taken said:
Would you say the Rapture is applicable to a specific group of people?

Why are you asking these questions? Obviously, the rapture applies to the church, as in, those who belong to Jesus Christ. All believers from all-time belong to Jesus Christ as there is no other name by which anyone can be saved (Acts 4:12).

Taken · 2026-09-15T17:56:48-0500

Spiritual Israelite said:
Why are you asking these questions?

Why do you ask questions?

Spiritual Israelite said:
Obviously, the rapture applies to the church, as in, those who belong to Jesus Christ. All believers from all-time belong to Jesus Christ as there is no other name by which anyone can be saved (Acts 4:12).

Can God Save?

GeneZ · 2026-09-15T18:15:53-0500

JimKnox said:
Welp; that's what lots'o'people teach but it ain't right.
That's called "an argument from silence " and is a logical fallacy.

Sir?
Called what?
It is called "discernment".

It is not an argument from silence.
It is an argument that was constructed because of an unexpected and sudden silence.

Go ahead if you wish...

Defend what you have been told and accepted without question.
Protect yourself from the shame of finding out that what you were proud about believing is wrong.

Such moments must happen to all of us if we are truly growing.
That is why God says it takes humility to mature in Christ.
For we all have made errors at some point in our walk.

Then Jesus said to his disciples: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself,

and take up his cross, and follow me. Matthew 16:24

Taking up one's cross was the worst form of public humiliation.
It was designed to degrade the individual in front of onlookers, emphasizing the loss of honor.

As for me?

When my stupid mistakes were exposed?
I had a few...
If I remained proud and refused what is needed for my correction?
I would not have received transformation into becoming more Christ-like in my life.
For He is the Word.

Spiritual Israelite · 2026-09-15T18:31:26-0500

Taken said:
Why do you ask questions?

To get answers. If you asked why I asked a certain question then I would tell you exactly why. Is telling me exactly why you are asking your questions too difficult for you to answer?

Taken said:
Can God Save?

Another dumb question with an obvious answer. I'm done playing your games.

GeneZ · 2026-09-15T18:32:28-0500

Spiritual Israelite said:
Where is "the trinity" mentioned in scripture? Nowhere. But, you believe in the trinity, right? Where is "the rapture" mentioned in scripture? Nowhere. But, you believe there will be a rapture, right? This is not a valid argument you're trying to make at all. The church is most certainly mentioned after Revelation 3. Who else but those in the church are those who have the testimony of Jesus and obey Him? Who else but those in the church are called saints?

What is mentioned in the Bible is what reveals what we now call the Trinity.
What is mentioned in the Bible is what reveals what we call the Rapture.

Words became needed to be developed to indicate concepts that the Bible prescribes in what it contains.

That is why Paul said...

And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more

and more in knowledge and depth of insight. Philippians 1:9

Insight, with its understanding into how things work, has led to the need for the invention of new words!

The problem is...

If the Bible spelled out everything in black and white as you demand it to be, there would be no insight to be had!
But Paul prayed that we would grow in knowledge and enter into gaining insight.
You demand black and white.

Biblical insight is the offspring of real spiritual growth that is leading us into maturity in Christ.

grace and peace .........

GeneZ · 2026-09-15T18:33:56-0500

Spiritual Israelite said:
Another dumb question with an obvious answer. I'm done playing your games.

Not when it is rhetorical.

You need to get off your high horse.

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