Pretrib fallacies

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William Barton

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So, is there also a rapture in Revelation 11:12, as you previously claimed?
IMO:
"Rapture" is an English word stemming from Latin rapere= "to seize." The apostle Paul was caught up, the two witnesses were caught up, all believers are caught up upon death. It's like taking a plane to another country.

The earth we live on is a haven in a desolate universe. The universe itself will be replaced (Revelation chapters 21, 22).

Revelation 11:12 "they went up to heaven in a cloud" is a rapture.

Genesis 5:24 "Enoch ...was no more, because God took him" is a rapture.

2Kings2:11 "...Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind" is a rapture.

Luke 24:51 "he...was carried up into heaven" is a rapture."
 
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WPM

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IMO:
"Rapture" is an English word stemming from Latin rapere= "to seize." The apostle Paul was caught up, the two witnesses were caught up, all believers are caught up upon death. It's like taking a plane to another country.

The earth we live on is a haven in a desolate universe. The universe itself will be replaced (Revelation chapters 21, 22).
This earth will be regenerated when Jesus comes. We are glorified to inherit it.
 

WPM

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IMO:
"Rapture" is an English word stemming from Latin rapere= "to seize." The apostle Paul was caught up, the two witnesses were caught up, all believers are caught up upon death. It's like taking a plane to another country.

The earth we live on is a haven in a desolate universe. The universe itself will be replaced (Revelation chapters 21, 22).
The Bible teaches us: just as there was a connection between the fall of man and the fall of creation so there will be a correlation between the glorification of man and the glorification of creation.

1 Corinthians 15:21-26 declares: “For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.”

1 Corinthians 15:50-54 continues: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”

To inherit the incorrupt age to come, God has to suitably change us into incorrupt beings. Basically, He is going to perfect us so that we are qualified to inherit the perfect world to come.

This eliminates the oft-stated Premillennial claim that the unsaved can in fact inhabit the new earth. Regardless of whether one is saved or not, if they aren’t glorified, they cannot inherit the new earth. No mortal shall inhabit it.

The prime focus of these passages is “the resurrection of the dead” and the termination of death. This is the time when corruption is finally banished from the earth forever. This is the occasion when the redeemed "inherit the kingdom of God." This is the much-anticipated arrival of the new creation in all its visible, glorious, perfect and eternal glory.

But when does this happen?

Both of these passages demonstrate that this occurs at the “coming” (or parousia) of the Lord, which is described as “the last trump.” It also confirms that this ushers in “the end.” This is the closing curtain of time, sin, corruption and mortality. We are now into eternity. No one could therefore argue with any validity that death is not finally and eternally destroyed at the second coming, the time here denoted as “the end.”

This passage closely mirrors many other similar passages, confirming that the last enemy is demolished at “the last trump.” Corruption finds it end when Christ comes in all His glory. This corroborates what Paul was teaching about the scourge of corruption being terminated when the elect are redeemed at Christ’s appearing. No one can deny the correlation between the glorification of the elect and the glorification of the earth. God’s people cannot populate an incorrupt earth. They need their bodies suitably attired in perfection to be able to enjoy that eternal state.
 

WPM

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IMO:
"Rapture" is an English word stemming from Latin rapere= "to seize." The apostle Paul was caught up, the two witnesses were caught up, all believers are caught up upon death. It's like taking a plane to another country.

The earth we live on is a haven in a desolate universe. The universe itself will be replaced (Revelation chapters 21, 22).
Romans 8:16-23 teaches, “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption [Gr. phthartos or perishableness or decaying] into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.”

Both the creature and creation are waiting for “the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body” – or resurrection day. This is the day when both will be finally delivered from the aforementioned “bondage of corruption.”

Scripture makes it abundantly clear there will be an end to the current fallen state. There will be a day of complete deliverance.

At this juncture we must briefly enquire, what is this “bondage of corruption” spoken of in this passage that will one day be removed? It is the awful curse that came upon all mankind as a result of Adam’s fall in the Garden of Eden. This curse embodies every effect of the Fall that afflicts man, including sin, death, and every form of decay. It is the perishableness we suffer from in this life.

1 Peter 1:3-7: “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible [Gr. aphthrsia or imperishable or undecaying], and undefiled, and that fadeth not away [Gr. amarantos or perpetual], reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ.”

Like Romans 8:16-23, 1 Peter 1:3-7 is comparing the toil and trials of this present age to the glory that will be experienced when Jesus comes. We see that the corruption will be eternally lifted when Jesus comes and introduces a perfect arrangement. Believers are shown to receive an “inheritance incorruptible” at “the appearing of Jesus Christ” – which is here also described as “the last time.”

So, let us consider some glorious truths in this passage:
  • The means by which the righteous will all physically rise is “the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”
  • What they rise to is “an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away.”
  • The location of that inheritance is “reserved in heaven”
  • The time of this resurrection and reward will occur: “in the last time” which is here expressly identified with the “appearing of Jesus Christ.”
What we experience in this imperfect age is perishing and decaying, but when Jesus comes, we are ushered into a new age to receive an inheritance that will be perfect, non-decaying and eternal. Premillennialists try and move this to the end of their supposed future millennium. But this passage is just one of many forbids that.

In Luke 20:34-36, Jesus basically compares the temporal imperfect state of this present age/world to the glory of the age/world to come. Jesus says: The children of this world [Gr. aion or age] marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world [Gr. aion or age], and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”

This couldn’t be any clearer. This teaching of Christ reinforces the fact that not everyone is qualified to inherit the perfect world to come that arrives with the return of Christ. This narrative totally prohibits mortals and the wicked from populating the new earth. After all, that age is depicted as a reward for the redeemed. It is for those who belong to God. It is for those who know Him personally.

While marriage takes place in “this age/world,” Christ tells us that it will not take place in “that age/world,” which follows the resurrection. There is no marriage after the resurrection because Christ ushers in the eternal state which requires perfect spiritual bodies instead of corrupt physical bodies. The glorified saints will have perfected bodies, just like the elect angels. There will be no more separation, sin or death. Marriage is therefore terminated, because it represents division between human beings.
 

GeneZ

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Eschatological belief has nothing to do with ones salvation. I just present the pre-trib view.

How did we get here?

You were talking about what it is that God deals with concerning the state of an unbeliever in salvation.
I in turn, attempted to explain the mechanics of what takes place.

And, now you are telling me?
You only want to discuss eschatology?
 

William Barton

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Where in Matthew 24:21 does it show a rapture of the church followed by a tribulation period followed by a 3rd coming?

Where in 1 Thessalonians 4 does it show a rapture of the church followed by a tribulation period followed by a 3rd coming? Where does it even show a rapture of the church followed by a tribulation period?
IMO:
The rapture is noted in:
o. John 14:2-3
o. 1Corinthians 15:51-53,
o. 1Thessalonisns 4:25-17
o. Revelation 11:22, 24:16

The rapture is seen in Revelation 14:14:16, as prophesied in 1Thessalonians 4:16-18.

The New Testament poetically organizes end-times events as:
* Trumpets (call to order)
* Scrolls (written announcement read)
* Bowls (devastation, depicted as hot oil torture)

Jesus only came to earth once. His second coming with his angels is seen in Revelation 19:11-20:6.

Jesus himself describes this time in Matthew chapter 24.
 

CrowCross

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How did we get here?

You were talking about what it is that God deals with concerning the state of an unbeliever in salvation.
I in turn, attempted to explain the mechanics of what takes place.

And, now you are telling me?
You only want to discuss eschatology?
No.
I'm still saying God saves us....pulls us from the lake.
 

WPM

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IMO:
The rapture is noted in:
o. John 14:2-3
o. 1Corinthians 15:51-53,
o. 1Thessalonisns 4:25-17
o. Revelation 11:22, 24:16

The rapture is seen in Revelation 14:14:16, as prophesied in 1Thessalonians 4:16-18.

The New Testament poetically organizes end-times events as:
* Trumpets (call to order)
* Scrolls (written announcement read)
* Bowls (devastation, depicted as hot oil torture)

Jesus only came to earth once. His second coming with his angels is seen in Revelation 19:11-20:6.

Jesus himself describes this time in Matthew chapter 24.
You are avoiding my questions. I will take that as an admission that neither Matthew 24:21 or 1 Thessalonians 4 shows a rapture of the church followed by a tribulation period followed by a 3rd coming.

As for Revelation 14:14:16, this narrative reveals a vivid account of the harvest that accompanies the second coming at the end of this age. We see “the Son of man” appear upon “a white cloud” with “a golden crown” upon His head and “a sharp sickle” in His hand to reap that final crop “for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” Once again, we observe that it is at the second coming that the wicked are finally cast “into the great winepress of the wrath of God.” This the final judgment. This is the end of the world.