But let's pretend that Mary did remain a virgin her whole life, that she never made love to her husband...
Does that make her holy? No
Does that make her righteous? No
Does that make her a good person? No
Actually that would make Mary a bad person, a sinner in fact.
No man marries a woman to remain celibate. That would be absurd. A man works for his wife, provides everything for his wife, protects his wife, especially back then when women didn’t work and fully depended on their husbands to provide. In return the husband expects to make love to his wife and have children with her. A man wouldn't marry, work, provide and protect a woman otherwise.
The Bible commands women to submit to their husbands. Refusing to do so would be a sin. So Mary would be a bad wife and a sinful wife to refuse to submit to her husband.
Mary would also had to be a bad parent if she only had the one child yet forgot to bring him home, leaving him alone back in Jerusalem when he was 12 years old. Only a bad parent could do that.
So the assumption that Mary was a perpetual virgin only makes her a bad person.
It makes her a sinner.
It makes her a bad wife.
It makes her a bad mother.
Let's test that claim against Scripture with a simple 3-step exercise.
1. Assume for a moment that Mary remained a lifelong virgin.
Suppose for a moment that you believed Mary remained a lifelong virgin for the same reasons I do — two of them being that God had consecrated Her for a unique vocation as the Virgin of Isaiah 7:14, and Her own stated intention to remain a virgin (Luke 1:34).
2. Consider what Scripture actually says.
- Joseph is called "a righteous man" (Matthew 1:19).
- When Joseph discovered Mary was pregnant, he did not condemn Her as a bad wife or accuse Her of sin. Instead, he sought to protect Her from public disgrace (Matthew 1:19).
- God sent an angel to tell Joseph not to divorce Mary, and Joseph obeyed (Matthew 1:20–24).
- Joseph remained with Mary for at least 12 years afterward (Luke 2:41–43).
- Nowhere does Scripture portray Joseph as resentful, cheated, deprived, mistreated, or trapped in an unjust marriage.
Why would God have sent an angel to affirm Mary’s innocence and instruct Joseph to stay married to Her — and would a righteous man like Joseph have obeyed — if She were actually doing something wrong? Why is Joseph presented as righteous for accepting God's plan?
3. Ask yourself honestly which picture fits the text.
Does Joseph look like a man who expected a conventional marriage, was denied his rights, and spent years suffering because Mary was a "bad wife"?
Or does he look like a man specially chosen by God to protect the Messiah and care for the woman chosen to bear Him?
Scripture supports the second picture, not the first.
The claim that "Mary would be a bad wife if She remained a virgin" is not a biblical argument. It is a modern assumption about what every marriage must look like. Scripture never says Joseph viewed Mary as a bad wife, and God certainly never does.
In fact, the argument ends up accusing Mary of sin while Scripture consistently presents both Mary and Joseph as faithful servants of God's will.
You haven't changed my mind.
I answered your question...
You haven’t changed your mind because you still haven’t understood the premise of the challenge. That misunderstanding led you to address claims I never made, which is why your response wasn’t an answer to the challenge. Once you’re engaging the actual argument rather than the claims you attributed to me, then we’ll see where your position truly stands.
The premise of this challenge is simple:
You assert that Mary had marital relations with Joseph.
Such an assertion carries clear expectations about what Mary Herself would have anticipated as a
betrothed woman.
According to Jewish law, betrothal was a
legally binding marriage, and a betrothed woman would naturally expect:
- future marital relations with her husband,
- future conception of children through those relations.
If you deny that, then you may as well abandon your position entirely.
If not, let’s continue.
Gabriel’s announcement
When Mary was betrothed to Joseph, Gabriel announced to Her:
“You will conceive and bear a Son.”
Notice what Gabriel does
not say:
- He does not say when She will conceive.
- He does not yet say how She will conceive.
According to your position, at hearing such an announcement Mary would have:
- expected conception to occur through marital relations with Joseph,
- expected conception to occur after the pre‑consummation period,
- and therefore had no reason to ask "How?" at all.
But instead, the narrative gives us something
entirely different:
- Mary asks “How will this occur?” — a mechanism question, not a timing question.
- She explains Her question with “since I do not know man” — an idiom referring to sexual relations in general, not merely the present moment.
- Gabriel answers Her “How?” with a description of a miraculous, non‑sexual conception: “The Holy Spirit will come upon You… the power of the Most High will overshadow You.”
- Gabriel reinforces impossibility by pointing to Elizabeth’s naturally impossible conception.
He is explaining why Mary’s conception will happen — precisely because it is impossible under normal circumstances.
This is the same logic he uses with Elizabeth:
- Elizabeth’s conception was impossible naturally, specifically because she was barren and advanced in age (Luke 1:36).
- Mary’s conception is impossible naturally — not because of barrenness, age, infertility, or lack of a husband, but specifically because She “knows not man” (Luke 1:34).
- God will make both possible, for "nothing is impossible with God" (Luke 1:37).
That is the
narrative logic.
The tension your position cannot resolve
Under Mary’s
expected future circumstances — a
legally binding betrothal, anticipated
marital relations, and no physical impediments — natural conception through Joseph was entirely
possible.
Yet none of Luke’s narrative fits a scenario where Mary
expects conception through Joseph at any point in the future.
Given your own position — that Mary expected future marital relations and natural conception through Joseph — how do you explain that both Mary and Gabriel speak and act as though conception is impossible under those expected circumstances?
That is the narrative tension.
