Sinless Perfection. Why do so many teach against what Jesus taught?

1stCenturyLady said:

Grace applies to us, but not the definition of a license to sin the church has adopted. It is the power of God to not sin. From what I've seen, you hold to the license to sin heresy.

Study to show yourself approved.

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Absolutely not....I do not hold to OSAS or license to sin. Using grace as a license to sin is abusing grace. I'm talking about God having grace for our human condition....thanks to Jesus' sacrifice on our behalf.....which doesn't give us any excuse to knowingly or wilfully sin. IF anyone sins we have an Advocate...who ever lives to make intercession for us.....but we would need to be sincere in repentance and in endeavouring not to sin again on our end. When we partake of the Lord's supper we are even told to examine ourselves, in the event that there is anything we are aware of, or that comes to our awareness, that we need to bring to the cross and get right with God over...keeping "short accounts" with Him.

The word "study" means to "endeavour".....that is ye olde Englishe usage of the word. The bible isn't a textbook and the Lord isn't telling us to rely on our carnal minds for understanding.

rmb60 said:

Jesus commands that you are to visit strangers in goal, do you do that ?

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It indeed takes courage to visit a Christian believer who has been unlawfully imprisoned for his faith.

Judge Hardcastle said:

It is not a sin to recognize that a woman is sexually attractive.

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Recognising that a woman is sexually attractive does not, in itself, involve any sexual desire, so it is not what I was talking about.

That is a natural biological function of the flesh. The temptation is to fulfill that desire in an unlawful way. Jesus was tempted in all ways just as we are. He was confronted with the desire to fulfill the desires of the flesh in unlawful ways just as we are.

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The desire for sexual interaction, with a woman who is not your wife, is adultery, just as much as the physical action is.

Matt. 5:27,28 (Webster)
27 Ye have heard that it was said to them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say to you, That whoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Episkopos said:

Mortal bodies are not the sin nature, AKA the flesh, that fights against the Spirit. The Spirit of God is not physical and the fight is not like an arm wrestling match with the body. Paul was not physically crucified when he said "I am crucified with Christ". The reason why uncrucified flesh sins is because the sin nature is embedded in the carnal husk over the soul...it is invisible but ACTS on the body. Paul said, in Romans 7 BEFORE being crucified with Christ...it is no longer I but sin IN me. He was not talking about his body, but the sin nature that covers the soul...called the power of the flesh.

Those who are Christ's have had their flesh crucified (not physically) in order to take on a new covering...that of Christ.

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Rom. 8:10-14 (W.E.B.)
10 If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if you live after the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are children of God.

As you can see, it is very clear that Paul is using "flesh" and "body" interchangeably here, so that it is known to everyone who reads it that they are the same thing, in this context.

rmb60 said:

Agreed and am a past long term adulterer, fornicator and though married would find it very difficult to reject a future liaison if the circumstances allowed it

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God always gives his children a way out. It does not depend upon our will power, so we need to seek the Lord for the grace to avoid sinful actions, when temptations are placed before us.

1 Cor. 10:13 (KJV)
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

rmb60 said:

When we sin we have chosen to sin.
I blame my sin on my actions, not someone elses.

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Yes, of course.

I read a interesting interaction here between some posters
Mark 10:17 Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
Mark 10:21 One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
How many of us here have done that ?
Since we haven't do we then forfeit eternal life ? !!

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Jesus was speaking to a rich young man. The man had asked what to do to inherit eternal life (i.e. he was asking about salvation by works). Jesus answered according to the terms of his question and told him to keep the commandments. The young man did not admit that he'd broken them (as everyone has), so Jesus pinpointed his greatest breach of the commandments (love of riches - i.e. idolatry, putting something before God).

This admonition (to sell everything and give to the poor) to an unsaved man, was to highlight the man's breach of the law, to show him his guilt before God. The young man should have realised that he could not keep God's commands properly, then asked for mercy and forgiveness; instead, he went away sad.

This does not mean that every Christian needs to sell everything he has; although, we should certainly be willing to help the poor.

David1701 said:

Yes, of course.


Jesus was speaking to a rich young man. The man had asked what to do to inherit eternal life (i.e. he was asking about salvation by works). Jesus answered according to the terms of his question and told him to keep the commandments. The young man did not admit that he'd broken them (as everyone has), so Jesus pinpointed his greatest breach of the commandments (love of riches - i.e. idolatry, putting something before God).

This admonition (to sell everything and give to the poor) was a specific application of the law, to an unsaved man who needed to realise his guilt before God. The young man should have realised that he could not keep God's commands properly, then asked for mercy and forgiveness; instead, he went away sad.

This does not mean that every Christian needs to sell everything he has; although, we should certainly be willing to help the poor.

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I also look at this as the rich young ruler wanting a pat on the back, he said he had kept all the commandments and was expecting to be commended

RLT63 said:

I also look at this as the rich young ruler wanting a pat on the back, he said he had kept all the commandments and was expecting to be commended

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That could be true as well; but, what Jesus was doing is more important. He was using an excellent evangelistic method: apply the law until the person realises his guilt, helplessness and need for a Saviour, then apply the gospel. The problem is that the man didn't get to the "need for a Saviour" part, because he was unwilling to part with his riches.

rmb60 said:

This does not mean that every Christian needs to sell everything he has
Appears to be inline with what Paul teaches that we are forever saved by faith DESPITE of what we do or don't.

Yet another poster here bought Acts up and made a valid point:-
Why did everyone sell everything if it is not a requirement to inherit/enter eternal life ?

Acts 2
44And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

Acts 4
32And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
33And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
34Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,

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They sold their possessions willingly (not under obligation), because they were full of the Holy Spirit and selfless love for each other. Most churches nowadays are in nowhere near such a good spiritual condition.

rmb60 said:

Yet another poster here bought Acts up and made a valid point:-
Why did everyone sell everything if it is not a requirement to inherit/enter eternal life ?

Acts 2
44And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

Acts 4
32And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
33And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
34Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,

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It was purely voluntary and they could have done whatever they wanted with the money they received from the sale of their property.

Acts 5:4
4Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal?

Not only is it impractical, if not foolish, to sell 'everything' you have unless you are prepared and willing to do that, there is no command in the law to sell everything you own. In regard to the rich young man, I'm of the opinion that Jesus was using hyperbole to show him that despite the fact that he kept the 10 Commandments, that's not all that the law requires. He had not kept the law that commands the people of God to be generous to the needy.

Deuteronomy 15:7-11
7If anyone is poor among your fellow Israelites in any of the towns of the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward them. 8Rather, be openhanded and freely lend them whatever they need. 9Be careful not to harbor this wicked thought: “The seventh year, the year for canceling debts, is near,” so that you do not show ill will toward the needy among your fellow Israelites and give them nothing. They may then appeal to the Lord against you, and you will be found guilty of sin. 10Give generously to them and do so without a grudging heart; then because of this the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in everything you put your hand to. 11There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your fellow Israelites who are poor and needy in your land.

To have the righteousness required to enter into eternal life in the kingdom of God on the basis of works, you can't keep some of God's commandments some of the time. You must keep all of them, all of the time. That's why no one can get into the kingdom of God on that basis. That doesn't mean believers don't have to keep God's commandments. It means that is not the basis upon which we are justified. It is our faith in God for the forgiveness of sin by which we are justified. The forgiveness of God is what makes us righteous in God's sight, in spite of the fact that we have not kept all of God's commandments all of the time.

1stCenturyLady said:

I've got plenty of the fear of the Lord.

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Why do you fear the Lord concerning things you claim you cannot do?

1stCenturyLady said:

That is why I don't get tempted.

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Fear of the Lord does not remove temptation. The fear of the Lord is why someone would not cave into temptation.

1stCenturyLady said:

What you are quoting is the Old Covenant that David was under. Then sin was covered but remains. In the New Covenant sin is taken away.

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1stCenturyLady said:

You are quoting from the middle of his teaching in chapter 4 and it doesn't apply to us.

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The law did not cover/forgive David's sin. The law makes no provision for the forgiveness of murder and adultery, yet he was forgiven. That's what makes Romans 4:6-8 entirely about us. He received the benefit of the eternal grace of God in the complete forgiveness of sin before it was revealed and brought to light in the appearing of Christ.

2 Timothy 1:9-10
9 This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, 10but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus

1stCenturyLady said:

Remember also that verses from Romans 7:14-25 are still the Old Covenant and do not apply to us no matter how popular they seem and are even quoted in sermons by ignoramuses.

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Paul's famous struggle with sin in Romans 7 does apply to us because it describes the effort to keep God's commandments apart from the power of the Spirit. Just because a person has the Holy Spirit in salvation doesn't mean they know how to avail themselves of the power of the Spirit to please God.

Romans 7 is a message for, both, people who have turned to the Lord but have yet to be born again, and people who are born again and have the Spirit but have yet to learn about and employ the Spirit within them to rescue them from the temptations and enticements of the flesh. That's why he had to write Romans 8 to the church. Believers have to be educated about this. Believers grow through knowledge.

1stCenturyLady said:

I'm talking about "the flesh" as Paul did, the carnal nature/the old man, not the body. Romans 7:5-6; Romans 6:5-7; Romans 8:9.

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May I direct your attention to this post:

David1701 said:

Rom. 8:10-14 (W.E.B.)
10 If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if you live after the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are children of God.

As you can see, it is very clear that Paul is using "flesh" and "body" interchangeably here, so that it is known to everyone who reads it that they are the same thing, in this context.

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As I say, your misunderstanding stems from the unfortunate use of 'sin nature' for 'flesh' propagated in the church by early editions of the NIV. My most cherished possession is my 1978 version of the NIV, so I'm not knocking the NIV. We just have to be aware of where it has provided occasion for misunderstanding. I'm not opposed to the use of the phrase, as long as it is understood what it means.

1stCenturyLady said:

I'm not tempted because my "desire" lines up with God's will, so I can't be enticed to sin. This is true of all born again of the Spirit believers who continuously abide in Him.

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Abiding in him does not remove the occasion for temptation. And it does not mean the desire to do God's will will not also be accompanied by the desire of the flesh to be satisfied in ungodly ways (a.k.a 'temptation'). It means you have the power of the Holy Spirit to submit to God in faith for him to deliver you from the toothless roar of the flesh and the devil.

James 4:7
7Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

1 Peter 5:8-9
8Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. 9Resist him, standing firm in the faith

amigo de christo said:

Allow me to leave a reminder to all who bring another gospel .
LET THEM be accursed .
And this is why i will expose them TILL they repent of that .
HE or she who brings and or supports a false g ospel .
I dont even try and dialgoue with them about points .
I expose them and there is no getting along with such for me .
I WONT even bid them god speed either .
i wont even try and make deals with such .
THIS is my deal to any who bring a false gopsel ,
REPENT asap . or prepare to be exposed so long as i am here to do so .
OH i can dialgoue with those who teach a pre , mid , post trib
But unto all who bring a false gospel , AND WOE THE INCLUSVE ONE IS ,
they get the Exposed warning and to beware such by ME .
Just a friendly reminder to us all . No false gospel gonna be allowed on my watch
and any who brings such WILL BE continaully exposed on my watch .
so with that reminder in mind , THIS entire site needs to beware of epi and those who suppport him
or any who supports that inclusivity . IT a false gospel that in no way honors the SON , thus not the FATHER
but only calls GOD a liar . Have a blessed day sister . and keep on pointing to JESUS and the dire
reminder that without beleiving on HIM , without faith in HIM , ITS ALL IN VAIN.

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@amigo de christo

David1701 said:

Rom. 8:10-14 (W.E.B.)
10 If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if you live after the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are children of God.

As you can see, it is very clear that Paul is using "flesh" and "body" interchangeably here, so that it is known to everyone who reads it that they are the same thing, in this context.

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You are missing the point here. The power of the flesh works through the body just like the Spirit does. This is a rebuttal of Gnosticism which believes that the body is unimportant. But whether we are led by the flesh or the Spirit our bodies are animated by these forces so that we act very differently. You can't live "after the body" since both the flesh and the Spirit affect the body. The body is the RECIPIENT of the animation not the originator. The body is animated either by the flesh ...to sinfulness...making it a body of death...or else by the Spirit...to obedience...giving it victory over the flesh and preserving the body.

There is a proper balance to consider.

Episkopos said:

You are missing the point here. The power of the flesh works through the body just like the Spirit does. This is a rebuttal of Gnosticism which believes that the body is unimportant. But whether we are led by the flesh or the Spirit our bodies are animated by these forces so that we act very differently. You can't live "after the body" since both the flesh and the Spirit affect the body. The body is the RECIPIENT of the animation not the originator. The body is animated either by the flesh ...to sinfulness...making it a body of death...or else by the Spirit...to obedience...giving it victory over the flesh and preserving the body.

There is a proper balance to consider.

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You have to consider in also that when led by the flesh you arent acting alone but your flesh is manipulated and influenced by satan and demons who want to keep you bound in that flesh. At least that’s how I’ve seen it.