I am a Liberal

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

RANDOR

Fishin Everyday
Apr 13, 2014
1,104
28
0
108
HEAVEN
It won't be long....actually it is happening as i type this....have you ever in your life seen so many libs wakin up, yesterday, day before yesterday, last night............and even 20 seconds ago.
They are coming out in groves against everything these libs are supporting in here.....gosh......do they even watch the news, read the papers are they aware....the party they are supporting is falling apart......

And the most stupidist thing i have ever heard of is.....these people want to pay more taxes.....well then start paying....what are you waitin for? you can write them a check right now. If you have 10,000.00 in the bank...give them 5000.00 of it right this second.....you go first.

These libs are so out of it..........these taxes ya want to pay could go to 50%..that means you will be working the first 6 months for the government.....I would definitely think twice about wanting to pay more...oh and lets not forget about all the regulations that are coming your way.
Before the year is out........many will be in soup lines. Because of this thinking.....did I say before the end of the year?....yes I did.
 

sojourner4Christ

sojourning non-citizen
May 23, 2014
388
8
18
Well, well. It appears that we may have a genuine truth seeker or two here. Let’s proceed a bit further.

First, this kneejerk, but completely understandable, response:


S4C - hope you never make use of services funded by taxpayers - I would hate to think of you as a thief.

Since when does being deceived save anyone from being evil. It didn't save Eve.

The body of Christ is not made up of thieves; we pay for what we use.

and


If one starts from the philosophical premise that the money doesn't belong to government either, then the restoration of that money to it's rightful owners, the people, is not thievery.... It's one of the many ways you people have turned reason and sanity on its head.

BINGO. All the gold and all the silver is mine, says the Lord. The earth and the fullness thereof is mine, says the Lord. So those who live, move, and have their being in the Father understand this; those who live, move, and have their being in the world do not.
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
4,778
113
52
West Coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
How do you pay for defense, roads and other community funded services if you do not pay taxes?
 

This Vale Of Tears

Indian Papist
Jun 13, 2013
1,346
61
0
Idaho
aspen said:
How do you pay for defense, roads and other community funded services if you do not pay taxes?
We have an extremely well funded military, so much so that we invade countries that pose absolutely no threat to us. States paid for roads long before the Eisenhower Interstate system, and just about every other community service. Leftists pretend that dire consequences will ensue if government receives even a dime less in revenue, as if there weren't loads of waste that could be trimmed before we start carving into vital services.

Let's get a government that doesn't greedily gobble up hundreds of billions of our dollars to fund a bunch of unnecessary rubbish before we start on the Leftist teenage hysteria about the doom and pandemonium that will result from an underfunded government. Yeah, I'm talking to the 800 pound metaphorical man. Put down that infernal doughnut and go on a diet. It's not going to kill you and the rest of us will do much better. Thank you.
 

sojourner4Christ

sojourning non-citizen
May 23, 2014
388
8
18
A "way" is a path common to all (Matthew 21:6-8). Thus, we use the term "common ways." The "world" uses terms such as "highways and byways, freeways, expressways, tollways, parkways, and driveways." These are terms to describe different kinds of ways, and sometimes their meanings are backwards. For example, the world says we drive on a parkway and park on a driveway. It should be the other way around; a driveway should be a way to drive on, and a parkway should be a way to park on. Anyway, by us using the term "common ways" instead, we are describing something that is common to all people, and at the same time, avoiding the words of the world.

In addition, we should try to avoid terms such as "road, travel, drive, motor vehicle, automobile, car, etc.," as these can be construed to denote commercial activity, since they are commercial terms created for commercial law. To desscibe the mode of movement we use, we should use the terms of scripture, which would be "mule, vessel," etc., instead of "car, motor vehicle," etc. A vessel is a scriptural term which refers to a mode of movement, such as boats, our own bodies, and other things that are used to go from one place to another. In addition, instead of saying "I am driving this car," it is best to say "I am guiding this vessel."

A difficult question for all true followers of Christ is, "Should I take a license from the government or not?" The only answer is, "Not". The next question automatically follows, "What do I do when I get stopped for not having a current tag, registration, title, insurance and drivers license?" As always, the answer is found in scripture:

Philippians 4:13, "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me."

You can do all things through the power of Christ (not man or worldly governments). We should wholly depend upon him for all our power and authority to do what he will have us do. They do not come from an affection to things of the world or rights (privileges) given by men.

Therefore, when you are out on the "roads," you cannot be doing anything that is contrary to Scripture, in order to exercise your Duty of Movement and Liberty in Christ on the Common Ways. This would include, but is not limited to: speeding, reckless behavior with a six thousand pound machine, engaging in commercial activity for personal financial gain and profit through sales calls, a delivery service, transporting passengers or goods for a price, and other such acts of "disturbing the public peace". If you choose to engage in such activity, you will be fully controlled and regulated by those that exercise that job, for you will be looked at by them as a ‘low and lawless form of humanity’. You will be under the jurisdiction of, and regulated by, the god of commercial roads; Mercury.

“Where lawful services are blended with such as are forbidden, the whole being a unit and indivisible, the bad destroys the good.” Trist v. child, 21 Wall. 452 (1874).

To be blunt about it, every bondman of Christ who owns a so-called vehicle is presumed to be acting in the mode and character of a pagan (i.e., in commerce) because he has borne or given no evidence to the contrary. Is this not bearing false witness? In other words, when a man professes to be a follower and ambassador of Christ and yet acts in a manner that tells the whole world that he is a pagan, then he is bearing false witness to the whole world. Can the officer be blamed for writing his traffic ticket in such a case? Obviously not! These Christians honor God with their lips, but their heart is far from him (Isaiah 29:13, Matthew 15:8, Mark 7:6).

On the other hand, if you act in the mode and character of a true bondman and ambassador of the Christ, there are alternatives to State licensure. And all presumptions are rebuttable. Your activity cannot be of a commercial nature, but limited to only one purpose; ministering for the Lord. This does not mean that you must be a minister "ordained" by men. It means that you live, move, and have your being in Christ; it means you are not doing your own will, but the will of the Father.

There are no gray areas. It’s either, "render unto Caesar" or "render unto God" (Luke 20:25). There are no guarantees or silver bullets available when dealing with Caesar, but there is the Promise of Christ, the Higher Power, for "with men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible."(Matthew 19:26, Mark 10:27, Luke 1:37; 18:27). The shield of faith must be carried at all times. It is not a matter of "getting away with it," it is a matter of honoring the Father first and standing on the Word of God and bringing his truth to them, no matter what the consequences.


How do you pay for defense, roads and other community funded services if you do not pay taxes?

There's nothing wrong with being in an automobile, there's nothing evil about that. Even man's law, in their own court cases, admit that there's nothing inherently evil about an automobile; it's the guy behind the wheel. That's where the evil comes from. Also, most people believe that "roads" belong to the government. They don't. Just because the government paves over a way common to all does not make it theirs. After all, if the government comes to your home and paves your dirt driveway, does that now mean the driveway belongs to the government? Of course not. And their own laws confirm that the "roads" belong to the people, not the government.
 

This Vale Of Tears

Indian Papist
Jun 13, 2013
1,346
61
0
Idaho
I find that people who are Biblically literate are far less likely to be a Leftist. Who can read that covetousness is forbidden by God and then vote for a party who's whole premise is built on that sin?
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
4,778
113
52
West Coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This Vale Of Tears said:
We have an extremely well funded military, so much so that we invade countries that pose absolutely no threat to us. States paid for roads long before the Eisenhower Interstate system, and just about every other community service. Leftists pretend that dire consequences will ensue if government receives even a dime less in revenue, as if there weren't loads of waste that could be trimmed before we start carving into vital services.

Let's get a government that doesn't greedily gobble up hundreds of billions of our dollars to fund a bunch of unnecessary rubbish before we start on the Leftist teenage hysteria about the doom and pandemonium that will result from an underfunded government. Yeah, I'm talking to the 800 pound metaphorical man. Put down that infernal doughnut and go on a diet. It's not going to kill you and the rest of us will do much better. Thank you.
You didn't answer my question.
 

sojourner4Christ

sojourning non-citizen
May 23, 2014
388
8
18
Who can read that covetousness is forbidden by God and then vote for a party who's whole premise is built on that sin?

Again, BINGO.

When elections come up, people usually choose between the “lesser of two evils.” But we have to remember that there is no such thing as the lesser of two evils. Evil is evil, and there are no degrees of evil (James 2:10). So, whoever came up with that phrase, “the lesser of two evils” is a liar. And, when you do vote, you are not voting for the lesser of two evils, they admit that you are voting for evil.

It doesn't matter what promises anybody makes, they never keep them anyway. But what spirit are they of? Are they of Christ or are they anti-Christ? That's all we have to look at.

Why is it evil to elect men? Well, it's because you are electing men to rule over you. Similarly to what happened to Israel when they went to Samuel and told him they wanted to be ruled by men, like other nations (1 Samuel 8:4), and God said to Samuel, "they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them” (1 Samuel 8:7). Therefore, if we would vote to have men rule over us, when we have the offer of the Kingdom of God to rule over our hearts and minds (Philippians 4:7), we are rejecting God's rule over us.

There is nothing new under the sun (Ecclesiastes 1:9). This has to do with voluntary servitude. If you turn your back on God you become servants to men. When you go out and vote, you are saying, “I am a servant of men and I want these men to rule over me.” You are putting men in the place of God, and that's a usurpation of God and it's also idolatry. And if you're looking to men, God is not sufficient.

And you know, God has already given us a King (Acts 17:7). God did not leave anyone here to rule over us. Actually, Christ refused to set up a worldly kingdom. That was one of the temptations Jesus was tempted with in the wilderness. The Devil showed him “all the kingdoms of the world” (Matthew 4:8), and that must have been one of the greatest temptations that Christ was faced with, to set up a kingdom and rule the earth. I mean, just think of all the good he could have done!


And that's the kind of temptation that men think, when they say, “if only we could get a good man into power.” But, it's never going to happen because power corrupts, and another reason is the heart of man is evil (Genesis 6:5; 8:21, Ecclesiastes 8:11, Jeremiah 17:9). And you're pretty much at their mercy once you've given them approval.

The State is set in place for dishing out privileges. They claim to serve the public, but at the same time they don't freely give anything. There's a duty attached to everything, and that's not the way that we're supposed to give. We're not going to change anything by voting the right people in government, because even if we got the right people in, it still wouldn't change the heart of the people. It's the heart of the people that needs to be changed on an individual basis. We, individually, need to turn our lives over to the King of kings. Voting is not going to do any good, and people are beginning to realize that. That's why the voter turnout is so bad, and people are fed up with the fact that they can't change anything.

And the system is so corrupt that vote scam is so blatantly out in the open, and most people know that “the people” don't vote, and politicians get elected by those behind the scenes. Prior to the Civil was, there were no secret ballots, everyone voted in the open. The word “ballot” comes from “ball lot,” they cast their lot with either a white ball or a black ball (that's where the term “blackballed” comes from). But, with secret voting, the so-called powers that be can manipulate that vote any way they like, and that's why they keep their own people in power. And of course it's even better for them now with computers. The secret ballot originally came from Australia:

Australian Ballot: A system of secret voting whereby the voter indicates his choice of the candidates who have been nominated by a mark alongside the name of the candidate thus chosen. The system originates in Australia, whence its name. Rayden's Law Dictionary, 1954.

And that's why, today, we have no idea whether the actual vote count is true or not. All of the voting laws stem from the Reconstruction Acts after the Civil War. They passed a Voting Act in 1865-1866. Voting is an “elective franchise” and it is a “privilege” granted by the State. The word “privilege” comes from the Latin “privus” and “legis, and that means private law. So when you receive any kind of privilege from government, you are engaging in a private law, the law of the law merchant. That's what all the government officials are for, for this corporate government, which exists for business, for the economy. And the word economy is just another word for mammon (Luke 6:9-13). So you're electing those to give you all the privileges of the wealth of the world. To a large extent it's socialistic. But when you're engaged in a private law, you're not involved in the Law of God, which is NOT private law. You turn your back on God when you look to those things.

When you look at the definition of “bribe” we always think of a bribe to a government official as the only kind of bribe there is. But what about when they make all these promises of what they're going to do for you and everything if you'll vote for them, that's really a bribe also. And I think everyone should consider that. When politicians make all kinds of promises, they're saying, “I'll do this for you if you vote for me.” That's the same thing as a bribe.

Bribe: “Anything of value, any gift, advantage or emolument, any price, reward or favor. Any money, goods, right in action, property, thing in value, or any preferment, advantage, privilege or emolument, or any promise or undertaking to give any asked, given or accepted, with a corrupt intent to induce or influence action, vote, or opinion, or person in any public or official capacity. It is a gift not necessarily for pecuniary value bestowed to influence the conduct of the receiver and must be of substantial value to him.” Black's Law Dictionary.

So what you see is when these politicians make all these promises, they are really bribing you for your vote.

"Bribery: A candidate for a judgeship who pledges himself, if elected, to serve at a less salary than that provided by law, virtually bribes the masses to vote for him." A Dictionary of Law, William C. Anderson, page 136.

And once the vote is cast, then they break their promises all the time. So, they're actually offering a bribe, and not necessarily coming up with it.

“Every people looks primarily to its own benefit...Every government is organized selfishness. It is constituted for the food of its constituents. The Preamble of the Constitution of the United States of America embodies this explicitly as the object of its adoption. It is the embodiment of a scheme, devised by the people of the United States to form a more perfect union of states then imperfectly united, to establish justice among themselves, to insure their domestic tranquility, to provide for their own defense, to promote their general welfare and to secure the blessings of liberty, not to the world at large, but to themselves and their prosperity.” (A Yale Law Review from 8 Yale Law 159, page 165, which is from a book called The People Of The United States, Simeon E. Baldwin, 1899).

This fellow was a lawyer, so they know what government is all about, and its all for the benefit of the people. We don't find Christ there, it's men ruling other men, giving benefits to one another. And when the natural man gives a benefit to you, there's a duty attached to it. There's no “freely” giving (Matthew 10:8) and expecting nothing in return, as scripture tells us. We are not to touch the unclean thing (2 Corinthians 6:17), and when you vote and become a beneficiary of the franchise, you are joining yourself to the unclean. And we have to take those things into consideration.

Every man believes he has a right in the outcome of the destiny of society. This is a myth. If God directs men to move in a way that's led by God, then no vote can change the Will of God. The “voter registration” is secular man's faulty reasoning that he, in and of himself, can save all, if you just give him enough power, more money, more…more…more…and still more. As soon as you put your “X” on that thing that votes for that politician, you become part of the world, you voted to be ordered around. The politician needs your consent to crack a whip over your head, make you feel like the animal that you have partaken of. You are now part of the zoo of humanity.

Bondmen of Christ cannot vote because that would be violence or force. We are not into using force, you cannot force the Kingdom of God, you cannot force people to love, you cannot force your love on others, you cannot force people to be free, because that requires violence to enforce it. And "the weapons of our warfare are not carnal" (2 Corinthians 10:4).

In the Old Testament, the people "voted" to kill Joshua and Caleb (Numbers 14:10). Right after they voted, God said, "...How long will this people provoke me? ...I will smite them with the pestilence, and disinherit them," (Numbers 14:11-12), but Moses asked for mercy and God pardoned their evil ways. In the New Testament, during the trial of Christ Jesus, Pontius Pilate let the people "vote" between Barabbas and Jesus as to who they wanted set free (Matthew 27:17). The Pharisees whispered lies in the people's ears so they would vote the way they wanted them to vote. This "voting privilege" allowed Jesus to be crucified!

By receiving a privilege or benefit from the government, we are gaining the favor of rulers; but scripture says, "Many wait on the favor of rulers; but justice comes to a man from the LORD" (Proverbs 29:26). In other words, those who look to the favor of governments will not really get justice, which is one reason why many people complain there is no justice in today's courts, no matter WHO they vote for. Why? Because voting does not bring about justice, in brings about injustice! Why does in bring about injustice? Because people do not "vote" to do God's Will, they "vote" to have people do their own will, for selfish reasons, and the consequences of selfishness is always injustice.

In conclusion, voting is very unscriptural.
 

River Jordan

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2014
1,856
50
48
Tex,

Keep in mind, fundamentalists tend to think in very clearly divided and simplistic black-white terms. They're conservatives and Christians. Therefore, anyone on the other side of the political spectrum cannot be a Christian. It's all or none, either-or.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

sojourner,

Are you saying that you believe the only form of government Christians can support is a theocracy?
 

RANDOR

Fishin Everyday
Apr 13, 2014
1,104
28
0
108
HEAVEN
With God...you are either black or white...not both.....choose a side....but choose wisely :)
And we are either for God or against God.....can't have some things for and somethings against...
gotz to be totaly for.
And to be totaly for means.............everything God is for.......no dabbling....nope...no dabbling.

Soooooooooo if one is not for what God is for.......then you be against Him....as easy as that.

No if ands or buts. You can have all the cake you want from God....but don't taste the pie of satan.
 

This Vale Of Tears

Indian Papist
Jun 13, 2013
1,346
61
0
Idaho
aspen said:
You didn't answer my question.
My non sequitur is explained by your question based on a false premise. Conservatives don't oppose all taxation. That's a Leftist myth, yet another one that you believe in spite of all evidence to the contrary. So much deception, I truly feel sorry that you've been duped by it all.
 

Eric E Stahl

New Member
May 28, 2013
388
13
0
Pa. USA
Tex said:
Yes, I am a liberal. And I don't even mean it in the "Adam Smith was a liberal" or "Jesus was a liberal" sense (both of which are true, btw), I mean that modern left-wing policies are more appealing to me than right wing policies. I would love government run corporations (insurance, automobiles, rail lines, post office, electricity, etc.), I like tax brackets, I like redistribution of wealth, equality of outcome and opportunity, I like governments with power, I like alternative energy, I like regulations on all sorts of stuff. I am a liberal.

And there is nothing wrong with it.

Regardless of your political preference, you must agree that there is nothing "evil" with ascribing to big government. Nothing "evil" about taxes, nothing "immoral" about progressive social reform. However, there are certain positions that are evil within what is called "liberal". Abortion is the murder of a human being, and many liberals are for it's legalization, continuation, or expansion. Euthanasia is equally the murder of a human being. Stem cells are occasionally extracted from human beings, killing them in the process. Pushing extreme separation of church and state is somewhat wrong (and many liberals support these extremes), but used naturally is a logical and beneficial to all of society.

With exception of these 3.5 positions, what is so satanic about modern liberalism?
What is really important is are you a born again Christian. Have you confessed to God that you are a sinner and accepted Jesus into your heart as Lord? If you answer yes, you are my Christian brother even if you are liberal.
 

RANDOR

Fishin Everyday
Apr 13, 2014
1,104
28
0
108
HEAVEN
Eric E Stahl said:
What is really important is are you a born again Christian. Have you confessed to God that you are a sinner and accepted Jesus into your heart as Lord? If you answer yes, you are my Christian brother even if you are liberal.
That is very true.............but....you would think God would clean up the liberal thinking.
 

This Vale Of Tears

Indian Papist
Jun 13, 2013
1,346
61
0
Idaho
RANDOR said:
That is very true.............but....you would think God would clean up the liberal thinking.
We'll civilly and politely part ways on the notion that God subjects Christians to a political litmus test. Everything I read about in the Bible indicates God's highest expectations of us have nothing to do with politics: "you have neglected the weightier matters of the law, justice, mercy, and faithfulness."

I believe that anyone who neglects the poor and downtrodden, and lives a life of indulgence and selfishness has much to answer for and little hope of heaven. Conservatives rightly believe that a man has a right to the fruits of his labors, but they must be warned that if they niggardly toward their fellow man in the face of God's riches toward them, they have a more frightful authority to answer to than the IRS.

And Leftists need to be warned that "charity" that is compelled from people by taxation and redistribution is not charity in God's eyes. If they build their trove of good works based on what they extorted from their fellow man, then need rightly fear eternal wrath. So regardless of how somebody votes, they better take personal responsibility for the poor and needy around them and not pass that obligation off to some politician.

I am absolutely certain nobody will miss out on heaven because they voted Democrat. I cannot be convinced otherwise.
 

RANDOR

Fishin Everyday
Apr 13, 2014
1,104
28
0
108
HEAVEN
This Vale Of Tears said:
We'll civilly and politely part ways on the notion that God subjects Christians to a political litmus test. Everything I read about in the Bible indicates God's highest expectations of us have nothing to do with politics: "you have neglected the weightier matters of the law, justice, mercy, and faithfulness."

I believe that anyone who neglects the poor and downtrodden, and lives a life of indulgence and selfishness has much to answer for and little hope of heaven. Conservatives rightly believe that a man has a right to the fruits of his labors, but they must be warned that if they niggardly toward their fellow man in the face of God's riches toward them, they have a more frightful authority to answer to than the IRS.

And Leftists need to be warned that "charity" that is compelled from people by taxation and redistribution is not charity in God's eyes. If they build their trove of good works based on what they extorted from their fellow man, then need rightly fear eternal wrath. So regardless of how somebody votes, they better take personal responsibility for the poor and needy around them and not pass that obligation off to some politician.

I am absolutely certain nobody will miss out on heaven because they voted Democrat. I cannot be convinced otherwise.
I agree totaly.....I quess my main concern I suppose with all my posts is....how can one support a party that is against God in this day in age.
There are only two reasons for this.
#1...they don't know what their party has been up to lately.
#2...Or, they don't know what God really stands against.

In my book...........God is against everything this party stands for today. Come on.....even the nuns are sewing this administration.
And what really erks me......is some calling themselves Christians....using that name....defend what they are doing is right....go figure....wow!!!! really?
Even the Cathloic priests are questioning Bidens, pelosi and others faith....
Ya know......if some pastor was telling me...I have it all wrong....wouldn't ya think....i would want to know what I'm wrong about....but hey...not these people.
They have got so use to satans blindfold...they don't even try to remove it themsleves.
 

This Vale Of Tears

Indian Papist
Jun 13, 2013
1,346
61
0
Idaho
RANDOR, why do I get the feeling that you just want God to damn all Democrats?
others-140.gif
 

RANDOR

Fishin Everyday
Apr 13, 2014
1,104
28
0
108
HEAVEN
Oh Vale...ya know that's not true......I want them to come to know Christ....not know of Him
But since I'm use to your sense of humor that was funny :)
 

This Vale Of Tears

Indian Papist
Jun 13, 2013
1,346
61
0
Idaho
RANDOR said:
Oh Vale...ya know that's not true......I want them to come to know Christ....not know of Him
But since I'm use to your sense of humor that was funny :)
Ok, I admit I'm not as pious as I appear. Yes I watched the Democrat convention in Denver and yes I saw Democrats boo God and try to remove him from their platform and yes I imagined giant meteors reigning down from heaven and killing every person in that convention center and the thought made me feel all warm and cozy inside. Even today it brings a smile to my face....

And now I'm going to strip off my shirt and flog myself for a little while...
 

Tex

New Member
Jun 29, 2014
199
7
0
This Vale Of Tears said:
I didn't say you were evil and you clearly have a reading comprehension problem. I said what you promote in the political and social sphere is evil and your vote and your efforts serve Satan, not the Lord. You are deceived into thinking that covetousness is virtue, theft is justice, that government has the right to force people to buy insurance, and that even though abortion is wrong, our laws should not protect the lives of the unborn, which makes you pro abortion by the toggle of default. You support the prevalence of moral depravity whether it be the homosexual agenda, boys using girls restrooms because he thinks he's a girl, or the proliferation of drug addiction through legalization. You do all this with your vote. Liberalism is demonic, every aspect of it without a single exception. It's entirely a product of hell.

And you vote for it. Bien Hecho!
You clearly have a reading comprehension problem. I do not support Obamacare, and the issues I have with it are too numerous to mention. I do not support abortion in any way. The laws should protect the unborn. I do not support any homosexual agenda, including boys using girls restrooms. Boys are boys, girls are girls. I think the government should not recognize any marriage (because marriage is of the Church), so I am against even recognition of valid marriages, let alone homosexual ones. I do not support the proliferation of drugs and think that drugs like marijuana should stay illegal. Most of all...

I AM NOT A DEMOCRAT!!!

I have said that multiple times. And I do not vote democrat. I have never voted democrat. I am a liberal though.

A progressive tax is not covetousness. I have explained it previously, but I'll do it again. The poor need basic goods, which requires a minimum number of dollars (we'll call it 'X'). If they make X dollars after taxes, then they must spend X dollars. Nothing is saved, nothing is invested, and any hope to excel financially is an illusion. Those with wealth, however, make more than X. Let's say another person makes X + 10,000 dollars after taxes. This means they have 10,000 for luxery spending, investments, savings, etc. Most people spend this on air conditioning, better car insurance, or invest in retirement, etc. Moreover, lets say someone makes X + 50,000 dollars. They have lots to allocate elsewhere compared to the first person. What I want to do is insure that working citizens have the basics, worth X dollars (which already happens, generally in excess). I do not support the welfare state, and therefore do not think more should be done on the welfare aspect.

But, we still have three people, X, X + 10,000, and X + 50,000. The X can't really give taxes; they don't earn enough to contribute without being short on rent/utilities/whatever and having to live in their car or on the street. They should pay 0% income tax. X + 10,000 has extra left over, but they can invest a maximum of $10,000. They should be taxed accordingly. The X +50,000 guy, however, can invest 5x the amount. So, if he invests $20,000, he'll make double what the other guy makes from his equal investment. It takes money to make money, and wealth increases exponentially. It is just that the wealthier pay more in taxes. A flat tax is unjust and covetous, not the other way around. It takes money to make money, and taxes should be applied appropriately.

Also, the government does force you to buy insurance. It's called Social Security. It's a retirement insurance. The government can tax you and spend it on things you don't support.



I pay no taxes, praise God! The Lord stressed that the children of God are free from taxation (Mat. 17:26). But if you prefer the bondage, then by all means carry on.
That is illegal. "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's", and respect the authority that God placed above you (including the civil government).



As I’ve shown you, from the Constitution itself, the system is antichrist. So why are you (and the majority) supporting it?

I don't. I just said so. I do not support the Constitution. If you're telling me that I must solely support theocracy, you're nuts.



They’re not MY “founding fathers.” Why would you claim they’re yours?
Because I am an American citizen. They founded the nation that I live in. Therefore, they are rightfully called the "founding fathers". I disagree with many of the things they believed, but I recognized their influence in the creation of the country that I live in.



Well, which is it then? The Constitution is good, and you and everyone should follow it? or, The Constitution is bad, and no believers should follow it? A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. You can’t have it both ways.
I do not hold to consequencialism either. The "good" produced by the Constitution doesn't make it good. The Constitution allowed for good things and helped political evolution. However, it's not divinely inspired. It's not good like God is Good, a person is good, or anything like that. Western culture has done good things too, but it's heavily flawed.



I’m not a ”Christian.” I am a born again follower of Jesus Christ. “Christian” is a mere label, used by those OF the world to describe those NOT of the world; whereas, “born again” is an ACTION. Likewise, I am no "realist."
A "born again follower of Jesus Christ" is a Christian. You're a Christian. It's not a label, its a category, and the boot fits. Whether you have faith or not is called "faithful" or "faithless". Those are two categories as well, and you fit into one of them (mutually exclusive). I'm assuming you are part of the faithful, but those are just my judgments and not the Lord's judgments.

Also, "born again" is a popular phrase from those in the category of "evangelical Christians", a subcategory of "Christians". And yes, I understand that "born again" is an action. To be in the category of "faithful", you cannot be seditary. In 100 AD, you wouldn't be "a born again follower of Jesus Christ", you would be "a follower of the Way".

If you're not a realist, you're an idealist (what you see is not a reflection of reality, but reality is only understood thorugh ideas). They are mutually exclusive. You're either one or another. Finally, by denying these categories, you're not doing anything other than defeating language. I don't know what to say, but words are kinda necessary, especially when speaking of the Word.

The people of God have stepped off their original foundation and taken on the words of the world to re-define themselves. When you re-define yourself, Christ no longer defines you. Many have adopted the ways of the world and adopted its words to describe themselves e.g. “liberal.” When the humanist interprets reality around him, he has only his own categories of thought to use as a reference for meaning, but the bondmen of Jesus the Christ have his Spirit and his words.
Words of the world? You think certain words are evil and others are good? Wow... Really now, the "words of the world" are the same ones that are used in the bible. Seriously, "Logos" was used in the same conotation that John used it since 500 BC.



So we really have to look to the Lord for everything and he will remove that blindness of the heart. "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God" (1 Corinthians 2:14), therefore his heart remains blind.

And how to you talk about the Lord? With words. And my words are not less than yours.



We know that the governments of men exist to keep the 'low and lawless forms of humanity' from doing violence to all, including themselves, and as our Father's rod of correction for his children. God uses Caesar to regulate corporations and the natural man. Corporations and ungodly men do not live by God's Law, thus they are both 'low and lawless' in the eyes of God, and in the eyes of man, and to control them, they must be under some kind of law, or there will be anarchy. Without the law of God in you, a regulatable personality must be created to protect others from you! This is the purpose of legal personalities and other labels e.g. “liberal.”

Many times, government and God see eye to eye on issues, like murder or theft. The purpose of government is to have man govern man to the fulfillment of man. God also aims for man (Jesus) to govern man (the Church) to the fulfillment of man (salvation). The best government will immitate God, but those governments that do not recognize their immitation are still blessings given to us by God.

This Vale Of Tears, on 03 Aug 2014 - 7:47 PM, said:
"Because I believe people like you are deceived. You work against God's righteousness and promote the forces of immorality, but do so under the sway of deception. But more to that, Protestants believe in imputed righteousness, that Christ's perfect, sinless record becomes our own when we are saved, so even Tex knows better than to say what he did.Because I believe people like you are deceived. You work against God's righteousness and promote the forces of immorality, but do so under the sway of deception. But more to that, Protestants believe in imputed righteousness, that Christ's perfect, sinless record becomes our own when we are saved, so even Tex knows better than to say what he did."

Off topic, but purgatory is wrong. You cannot progress from a sinner to sinless by a purge. You must be recreated, which is by the grace of God through Christ.

This Vale Of Tears, on 03 Aug 2014 - 7:51 PM, said:
"If one starts from the philosophical premise that the money doesn't belong to government either, then the restoration of that money to it's rightful owners, the people, is not thievery. Leftists think that people's money belongs to government, which is why they absurdly claim that we have to find ways to "pay" for tax cuts, as if government were somehow being cheated when people are forced to give up less of their own money. It's one of the many ways you people have turned reason and sanity on its head."

Did you print that paper? No? Then it's not yours. Do you maintain the roadways? That's what I thought. You pay for that service and others, and they're called "taxes". Anarchy is not a solution, and even is anti-Roman.

This Vale Of Tears, on 03 Aug 2014 - 10:19 PM, said:
"I find that people who are Biblically literate are far less likely to be a Leftist. Who can read that covetousness is forbidden by God and then vote for a party who's whole premise is built on that sin?"

It's not sinful to tax. It is sinful to hold your money and go "NOOOOO!!! MINE!!!!!!", which you seem to be doing. That is covetousness. Wanting more taxes is not covetousness. Please, stop your ignorance. I fear it is willful.

River Jordan, on 04 Aug 2014 - 12:42 PM, said:

"Tex,

"Keep in mind, fundamentalists tend to think in very clearly divided and simplistic black-white terms. They're conservatives and Christians. Therefore, anyone on the other side of the political spectrum cannot be a Christian. It's all or none, either-or."

I know. This is painful, but maybe they'll understand that politics and religion are not the same flesh? Maybe? I'm becoming more pessimistic as I grow older though. And I'm 22, so that's not a good sign.

And Leftists need to be warned that "charity" that is compelled from people by taxation and redistribution is not charity in God's eyes. If they build their trove of good works based on what they extorted from their fellow man, then need rightly fear eternal wrath. So regardless of how somebody votes, they better take personal responsibility for the poor and needy around them and not pass that obligation off to some politician.


This Vale Of Tears, on 04 Aug 2014 - 4:39 PM, said:
"I believe that anyone who neglects the poor and downtrodden, and lives a life of indulgence and selfishness has much to answer for and little hope of heaven. Conservatives rightly believe that a man has a right to the fruits of his labors, but they must be warned that if they niggardly toward their fellow man in the face of God's riches toward them, they have a more frightful authority to answer to than the IRS.

"And Leftists need to be warned that "charity" that is compelled from people by taxation and redistribution is not charity in God's eyes. If they build their trove of good works based on what they extorted from their fellow man, then need rightly fear eternal wrath. So regardless of how somebody votes, they better take personal responsibility for the poor and needy around them and not pass that obligation off to some politician."

Yes, forced charity is not charity. But, the world is not charitable enough. Those that refuse to be charitable will be forced. Those that are charitable remain charitable because giving to the government which gives to those that need it (including military, infrastructure, etc.) is EXACTLY THE SAME as those that donate to Salvation Army which gives to those that need it. Taxes used charitably allows charitable people to know that pay taxes are charitable. The unwilling are not charitable because they do not will the charity.

Taxes are not extortion. I have no trove and this isn't based on any sort of covetousness, and telling me otherwise is to claim to know my heart.