I don't want to be an Atheist

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forgivenWretch

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Feb 10, 2008
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Tennessee
(Remagoen;37136)
To All,I just literally woke up. I might say some weird things...To Stlizzy,I haven't read all of your response yet, but I'm working on it. Is there anyway to continue this conversation off the forum? Through AIM or some such like that? I think our replies are going to get larger and larger if we stay here and I don't want to terminate this. It's getting so good!To Hawkins,Don't mistake dedication for faith. The SETI project is the SEARCH for Extra Terrestrial Intelligence. Searching implies they don't know there's life out there, but they have their eyes and ears open. This is the same thing I have going for God. I've had my eyes and ears open for a while and I'm going getting anything. That treasure and box are real, tangible things. God has, to me, never felt real nor tangible. Also, I'm not being told to find him, I'm being told to allow my into my heart. That's vastly different. To Kalixx,You raise a good point. Perhaps it would be better if I say evidence can lead to proof? This way, the evidence would still be independent (the sky looks blue), but you still have a proof (the sky is indeed blue) to work with after analyzing.That second sentence sums me up rather well. And yes you can ignore it. The masses once thought the world was flat. We now know different. Strength in numbers has little weight to me.I listen to that voice a lot, perhaps more than what my head says. For the most part it's right, and it's that voice telling me to remain skeptical.PERFECT analogy with the cellphone! I've been trying to describe that for years and I've never been able to do it. Mind if I use that one myself?For the rest of what you said though, if he knows what's going on and I don't need to just vocalize it, why pray at all? Why does anyone pray for that matter? By that logic, "He knows" anyway.That's almost how I feel. Only difference is that the table already had food on it, I'm hungry, and I'm sticking my head out the door about to leave it to eat. I've wandered outside for a while now, and I think it's time to sit down--but I won't close that door. It's ok.I understand. When people say "creation", they usually use it only one way, and so that's how I was interpreting the paragraph. I'm glad I asked about it...I would disagree. I don't find any evidence at all supporting ID, while plenty for ESD. I'm not too sure if right now is a time to discuss them, though if you think it could help me find God, I suppose it's not that much Biblical.To forgivenWretch,And now you flat out insult me. Why do you think I'm here? Why do you think I've told people several times that they have good points or that they bring up something I haven't considered before and that I would do so. Isn't that the sign of an open mind? Just because I refuse to swallow your red pill doesn't mean anything other than I don't like that red pill. In fact, if "all you need to do is open your heart", why isn't there countless more Christians in this world. You put it so easily after all...How the **** can I be attacking you with defense??? Read your own words--they contradict.The way I learn has nothing to do with how I replied. I replied the way I did because all you did was quote the title and hand me a red pill. You didn't respond to anything I took the time, energy, and thought to write; you didn't even respond to anything anyone else took the time, energy, and thought to write! That is disrespect.You are in danger of not even receiving the dignity of a reply if you continue to throw words at me with blatant contradictions or show your peers (including myself) disrespect.
You know what, Remagoen, with this attitude you will never make any progress...I have not dis respected you, insulted you, or anything else, and again why do you insist on being so hate full? And is the cursing really necessary?Don't worry, I will not waste my breath on you again. God loves you and so do I.One more thing, you say you do not believe God is, and wish proof on your terms and not other way, I would love proof that I handed you a red pill, or better yet that I handed you anything. Please prove that there is such a thing as a 'red pill"?
 

stlizzy

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Feb 6, 2008
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Hello again. We can switch to another format because, you're right, it's going to keep getting bigger and bigger... email or whatever you would like. I also want to talk about some things that Kalixx has brought up to because he is talking about the same subjects as we are. I do, though, want to keep the board involved because I want other people to be able to read this discussion too and gain from it... so maybe every now and new I can post up what we right even if we don't use the forum as our main place of discussion anymore. Lol.... cool.... by the way how is Florida? Is is sunny? Because I am in Quebec, Canada until May and it is snowy and cold all of the time. LOL
smile.gif
 

Alanforchrist

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Dec 25, 2007
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(Remagoen;36831)
I'm an agnostic atheist. I know these words sound contradictory, but hear me out, please...My knowledge is limited; there is no way I can possibly know everything. I can search under a million rocks in the desert and there'll still be a billion more by the time I die. I can read all the biology books ever published, and I'll be missing all the chemistry books. There's simply not enough time, and certainly too many little bits of stuff out there. That said, I admit that there might be Yahweh, or a god or gods out there and I just haven't found that special stone yet, and therefore I'm agnostic. However, of all the stones and books I've looked under and through, I haven't found anything that proves to me there's God. And through that I'm an atheist--an agnostic atheist--because I've chosen to disbelieve from what evidence has been provided to me.I'll admit I might be wrong, just as I might be wrong that it really is pronounced to-mah-toe, not to-may-toe. I admit this. And because I admit this, I know the consequences are there if I make the wrong choice. Do I really cease to exist outside of a decaying, rotting body in the earth, or will I burn in Hell? I don't want to be wrong with this choice, and so I seek with an open mind. I'm here because I want to believe. I really do, but I can't. Either I can't wrap my head around the concept of God much like others can't understand quantum mechanics, or I see all the evidence in front of me and write them off as something else. I just don't see it.Nothing in life as really led me to how I am today. No grand event, no sorrowful death. I used to me Catholic, used to pray, but then I fell out of it as I never saw my prayers affect anything. While I remained a believer in Santa (He continued to give me presents, how could I doubt his existence?), God just felt like he wasn't there for me. I began to question things, and all the answers took me steps away from him. By the time I was in High School, I no longer cared about him, and told my mother I don't believe in him as she forced me through confirmation.At this point, I don't think I had any hint of an atheist in me. Sure, there might have been a god, but I couldn't exactly disprove him, so I did the immature "whatever" and moved on with my life...until I moved from Boston to Florida and was exposed to Christianity more than ever before. I felt like I had to make a stand and choose, not sit on a fence all day. I seeked people of all creeds and debated time and time again. Their words never brought me closer to God, only further away and into atheism. And so I'm here, continuing my search if I might be wrong.I would like to try something new this time though. In all the debates before, the Bible has always come up. I've read it, albeit not the whole thing, but a considerable chunk of it. In fact, the spine is in rather poor shape. When I've read the Bible, I found so many despicable things that whenever I hear someone quote it, it gives me shivers knowing that's from the same book with such evil. Would it be possible if someone can help me find Him outside the Bible? Perhaps under a certain stone without quotes?I'm trying to find him, and so I'm trying something new...
If you realy want to find God, He will show Himself to you and become very real to you because He loves for you. But it will mean a change of life, You will have a new Lord, [Jesus] new freinds, christians people, new desires, God given desires, a new nature, [A Partaker of the divine nature] That is because you will born again, which means born of God, His Spirit living in you.This is something to look forward to, not be afraid of.If you realy want this wonderful life [who wouldn't] Then ask Jesus to come into you life and cleanse your sins, and make you a new creature in Christ. If you do that if faith, He won't let you down, He will be your best freind, your healer, provider, strength and you will go to heaven if you die before Jesus comes, if not He will come back for you when He comes back for the rest of the Saints.The only regret that christiand have is, "They didn't become Christians sooner].God bless you.
 

Ek Pyros

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Feb 6, 2008
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(Hawkins;37102)
Sure. You are right. To me, it's a prophecy, it's a parable and it's a historical event all at the same time. And so is the story of Noah.
What does that mean?
 

Thunder1

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Dec 12, 2007
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Hi Remagoen,You said you don't want to be an atheist ? You've taken a huge step saying, I don't want to be this way, I believe you can then also start to take other steps as you already have- to change your old ways just by asking questions and help if needed...etc. Many people say they want to change but it's just in words not any action taken from their behalf. Change can be first difficult, because you are moving forward from your comfort zone, but it can be really rewarding at the end. I am proud of you doing this.
 

Wakka

Super Member
Jun 4, 2007
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I used it for the other guy, and I'll use it for you.Take this into account:How did physics come into existence? How did energy come into existence? Where did all of our life, all matter, the fact that little waves of energy give off color and light? How energy, matter, atoms are so perfectly made as to support the entire universe and our existence. It's God. The idea that it all happened by chance is stupid. And to be an atheist, and evolution takes much more faith believing in that lie than being a Christian.Discovery of the real Noah's Ark:part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y5ORpMTebIPart 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SE7nN80dIw8The Physical remains of Sodom and Gomorrah:part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgQHQ992WnwPart 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dkoSJt6xfYA Christian's testimony:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ct0JzJgKOBIEvolution:1. Where did matter come from?2. Where did space for the universe come from?3. Where did the laws of the universe come from (gravity, inertia, etc.)?4. How did matter get so perfectly organized?5. Where did energy come from to do all of the organizing?6. When, where, why, and how did life come from dead matter?7. Where, when, why, and how did life learn to reproduce itself?8. Is it possible that similarities in design between different animals prove a commmon Creator instead of a common ancestor?
Here is one of the many arguments for the existence of God: the cosmological argument. The argument is simply this: The cosmos is here and must be explained as to how it got here. This argument is using the law of cause and effect, which states: Every effect must have a preceding and adequate cause. What does it mean by adequate? Well, the building didn’t collapse because a mosquito landed on it. The tsunami didn’t hit because someone threw a pebble into the ocean.Now, when it comes to explaining the existence of the universe, you only get three possibilities: (1) the universe is eternal (it has always been here), (2) the universe created itself, or (3) something created the universe. There is no other possibility except to claim that the universe is simply an illusion and does not exist—but I don’t think you would buy that. So let’s examine these three possibilities to see which is the most reasonable.First, is the universe eternal? Absolutely not. We know this is true because of the universally recognized second law of Thermodynamics (the law of energy decay or entropy).This law states that everything goes downhill from order to disorder, more usable energy to less. This law is the reason why heat flows from hot to cold and why this building will fall apart if it is not kept up with. If someone doesn’t believe in the second law of thermodynamics, just challenge them to live forever; even with this awesome machinery we have in our bodies, you will eventually wear out and die.We can see that the universe is running down and wearing out; the stars are burning up, the radioactive atoms are decaying, etc. As Psalm 102:26 says, the heavens “will wear out like a garment.” Given enough time, the universe will experience what some call a “heat death” where there is maximum entropy; every part of the universe will be the same temperature, and no further work will be possible (speaking of energy transfer); all energy will be evenly distributed.Eternal things obviously do not wear out because they would have had an infinite amount of time to come to their end. Since you cannot have an end without a beginning, the universe must have had a beginning. Evolutionary astronomer Dr. Robert Jastrow said, “Now three lines of evidence—the motions of the galaxies, the laws of thermodynamics, the life story of the stars—pointed to one conclusion; all indicated that the Universe had a beginning.” And everything that has a beginning has a cause. This building had a beginning, you had a beginning, therefore there must have been a preceding and adequate cause.The evolutionists know this and so they came up with the “big bang” theory from that “cosmic egg” (the universe exploded into existence). But there is still a major problem—you have to explain where that “cosmic egg” came from. As it has been said, “There must be a cosmic chicken.”Some scientists like Carl Sagan and Isaac Asimov proposed the oscillating universe theory to avoid a beginning. This theory states that the universe acts like a yo-yo; it explodes and then gravity pulls it back in, and then the process repeats itself over and over. But the second law of Thermodynamics still refutes that idea, since each cycle would exhaust more and more usable energy. The universe is not eternal!Ok, that brings us to the second possibility: Did the universe create itself? I think Hebrews 3:4 answers that pretty well, “...every house is built by someone...”Let’s say I walk into my livingroom and see a crayon drawing of our family on the wall. When I ask my daughter where it came from, will I accept her answer of, “It just appeared there; it came from nothing”? Her grandparents might, but I won’t.It is pretty clear that something cannot bring itself into existence. As R.C. Sproul has said, “It is impossible for something to create itself. The concept of self-creation is a contradiction in terms, a nonsense statement . . . It would have to have the causal power of being before it was. It would have to have the power of being before it had any being with which to exercise that power.” As it has been said, “Nothing scratched its head one day and decided to become something.” I’m sorry to have to drop this bombshell on you, but from nothing, comes nothing.Besides, the First Law of Thermodynamics (the law of energy conservation) argues against it. The First Law of Thermodynamics states that in a closed system (without a God, this Universe would have to be a closed system) the amount of energy present in that system is constant (it cannot be created or destroyed), it can only be converted from one form to another. So, if the Universe initially contained no energy, and then it spontaneously generated all of the energy in the Universe now, the First Law would be violated. Without intervention from an outside force, the amount of energy in the Universe would have remained constant and unchanged at zero.And now the third possibility: Did something create the universe? If the universe is not eternal and could not have created itself, then the only remaining alternative is that the universe was created by something or Someone. This would have to be a transcendent, eternal, self-existing being. I can find only one satisfactory explanation to our conundrum, and that is found in Genesis 1:1, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”Someone may argue, “If the universe needs a cause, then why doesn’t God need a cause; who created God?” The answer is, everything that has a beginning has a cause; God, unlike the universe, did not have a beginning. Time is linked to matter and space (as we can see from Einstein’s general relativity). If God created the universe, then He created time along with matter and space. If God created time, then He is outside of time and doesn’t need a beginning.What is more absurd, to believe that God Created everything out of nothing or that nothing turned itself into everything? The fact is, we live in a Universe that is an effect. There must be a preceding and adequate cause for it. The only thing that makes sense is a Creator who is more powerful than anything we can imagine.

Mathematics and ProphecyWhat are the odds of Jesus Christ being the Son of God? The following is taken from the book "A Scientific Analysis of Genesis" by Dr. Edward F. Blick, PHD. There are 300 prophecies in the Old Testament that were fulfilled by the first coming of Jesus Christ. Professor Peter Stoner, a mathematician in one of California’s colleges, gave a homework assignment concerning Old testament prophecies and probability. There were 48 students in the class and each student was assigned the problem of estimating the probability that Jesus Christ just happened to fulfill one of the prophecies by chance. For example, one student may have been assigned the prophecy in Micah 5:2 which states that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem. Well, Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem, so this student had to estimate that out of all the places on earth, what were the odds that a person from the land of Israel would be born in Bethlehem.To get the total probability that Jesus Christ by chance alone happened to fulfill 48 prophecies, the individual probabilities had to be multiplied together. After doing so, Professor Stoner found that the total probability was one chance out of 10 to the 180th power (one followed by 180 zeros). To put it another way, the chances that Jesus Christ actually is the Son of God, in compliance with Old Testament prophecy, are greater than 10 to the 180th power, to one. This was calculated using only 48 of the 300 prophecies, so undoubtedly the odds are much larger than 10 to the 180th power to one.The odds of 10 to the 180th power, to one are more of a sure thing than anything you can predict in the future. For example, let’s suppose you are 20 years old and, based on insurance mortality tables, we knew the yearly death rate of people who were 20 years of age. It turns out that the chances of you dying in the next second are one chance out of 10 billion, or to turn it around, the chances of you living in the next second are 10 to the 10th power to one. Ten to the 10th power is an extremely large number, bur infinitesimally small compared to 10 to the 180th! To put it another way, the chances that Jesus Christ is actually the Son of God are substantially greater than the chances you have of being alive in the next second!
And my favorite one. Psalms chapter 22.(Wakka)
If you're witnessing to a Jew, please use this fulfilled prophesy of the Old Testament to back up Jesus' crucifixion.Psalm 22 - The prophecyPsalm 22:6-186. But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.7. All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,[Verses 6 & 7] He was aware of their scorn.8. He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.[Verse 8] He could hear the mocking words.9. But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.10. I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.[Verse 10] Doesn't describe the crucification, but does explain that Jesus is of a virgin and His father is the Lord.12. Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.13. They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.[Verses 9 through 13] He was praying to the Lord.14. I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.[Verse 14] The strain of crucifixion pulled his bones out of joint, and the loss of blood made His heart feel as though it were melting.15. My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.[Verse 15] His strength completely left Him, and thirst caused His tongue to adhere to His mouth.16. For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.[Verse 16] They pierced His hands and feet.17. I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.18. They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.[Verse 18] He could see them gambling for His clothes.
This scripture dating from way before the crucifixion details Christ's death. And we all know that Christ did die on the cross, and that he was real.
 

lastsecman

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Nov 8, 2006
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What is existence based upon?It is based upon love. Without love nothing would be able to exist in this world. And God is love.
 

Remagoen

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Feb 20, 2008
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To Stlizzy,Gimme da snow!!! Yeah, I'm in Florida, just south of Orlando. It's not that sunny, but still hot. We haven't had a single cold day this year; usually I can wear a sweater and jeans in the middle of "sub-summer", but I haven't had to stop wearing shorts once! I'm not even sure if I can blame this on Global Warming or not, it's just insane this year! I'll be leaving soon, hopefully.As for our posts... Do you have AIM, MSN, or Skype?To Alanforchrist,(Alanforchrist)
If you realy want to find God, He will show Himself to you and become very real to you because He loves for you. But it will mean a change of life, You will have a new Lord, [Jesus] new freinds, christians people, new desires, God given desires, a new nature, [A Partaker of the divine nature] That is because you will born again, which means born of God, His Spirit living in you.
I do want to find him. And by that logic, he should have already shown himself to me. (Alanforchrist)
If you realy want this wonderful life [who wouldn't] Then ask Jesus to come into you life and cleanse your sins, and make you a new creature in Christ. If you do that if faith, He won't let you down, He will be your best freind, your healer, provider, strength and you will go to heaven if you die before Jesus comes, if not He will come back for you when He comes back for the rest of the Saints.
This is very similar for why I don't pray. Kalixx summed it up very well:(kalixx)
I was interested to hear you comment about prayer. I have the same situation. I used to attend a Christian organisation and was often asked to pray for people. I couldn't refuse without revealing my doubts so I did it - but it felt so cheap and artificial because I have no sense of anyone on the other end - like talking in public to a cell phone with no battery in it. I felt so like a cheat that I stopped going there. I cannot pray in the normal sense of the word. However, I am also convinced that God is not so limited, or limiting, that only wordy prayer is acceptable. If he is there then he knows what is going on in my mind and heart.
To Thunder1,(Thunder1)
You said you don't want to be an atheist ? You've taken a huge step saying, I don't want to be this way, I believe you can then also start to take other steps as you already have- to change your old ways just by asking questions and help if needed...etc. Many people say they want to change but it's just in words not any action taken from their behalf. Change can be first difficult, because you are moving forward from your comfort zone, but it can be really rewarding at the end. I am proud of you doing this.
Thank you for the compliment. What ways should I change though? I don't think I want to believe in him just yet, I don't think I'm ready. But I want to find him. The question of belief would be beyond easy to answer if I know he's real.To Wakka,Why does your post feel like it's for someone else? More, why is it laden with Bible quotes when I specifically asked for help outside of the Bible? Did you read anything I said, or did you just copy and paste something you (or someone else) said to another non-believer? Thank you for reading my first post, which you obviously skipped over. It means a lot to me that my words are so worthless.To lastsecman,(lastsecman)
What is existence based upon?It is based upon love. Without love nothing would be able to exist in this world. And God is love.
I barely understand your logic, but I think I do. But beyond that, I don't understand your point. How does this bring me closer to God?
 

Wakka

Super Member
Jun 4, 2007
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(Remagoen;37402)
To Wakka,Why does your post feel like it's for someone else? More, why is it laden with Bible quotes when I specifically asked for help outside of the Bible? Did you read anything I said, or did you just copy and paste something you (or someone else) said to another non-believer? Thank you for reading my first post, which you obviously skipped over. It means a lot to me that my words are so worthless.
No your words are not worthless. You simply asked for evidence and I provided just some that was off the top off my head. There wasn't very many scripture references (besides Psalms 22). You should see me when I really have a point to come across. Just keep this in mind. If you want the truth, if you want absolute truth and evidence. You're going to have to explore Christianity and faith first hand on your own. I don't mean just going to church and reading some passage in the Bible. I mean driving your relationship into God. Some one can't just give everything you want on a silver platter. If you receive the Holy Ghost, then you'll be able to experience the gifts that God gives. They're super natural gifts. And that was enough evidence for me.
 

Remagoen

New Member
Feb 20, 2008
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(Wakka;37418)
No your words are not worthless. You simply asked for evidence and I provided just some that was off the top off my head. There wasn't very many scripture references (besides Psalms 22). You should see me when I really have a point to come across. Just keep this in mind. If you want the truth, if you want absolute truth and evidence. You're going to have to explore Christianity and faith first hand on your own. I don't mean just going to church and reading some passage in the Bible. I mean driving your relationship into God. Some one can't just give everything you want on a silver platter. If you receive the Holy Ghost, then you'll be able to experience the gifts that God gives. They're super natural gifts. And that was enough evidence for me.
Wakka, I did a quick count of how many times you listed an item (besides Jesus) within the Bible. About 8 times, including Psalms 22. You raise Noah's Ark and Sodom and Gomorrah, both items from the Bible. You link me to a Christian video where the very first sentence is a quote from the Bible. The word "Psalms" appears exactly 4 times in your post, though three of those are mentioning the same chapter. You mention Micah, Genesis, Hebrews. You may not have many actual quotes, but you did refer to the Bible, which I specifically asked not to. My goal here is not to seek out Christianity just yet, but rather, find out if there even is a supernatural being. Quoting the Bible therefore means nothing to me, as it's just a book at the moment because I don't even believe in God. No matter how many times you tell me about it or refer me to it, it's just a book to me, and there is little you can do to use it to show me evidence.In your post though, you do ask 8 questions. I'll answer them quickly:1-8: I don't know. I'm not a scientist, and so I can't answer those. However, I'm certain that if you ask scientists, they could either say either, "I don't know, but we are working on it" or, "Your answer is..." Regardless, however, I get your point in why you are asking me these. You are trying to lead me to believe God did this. Of course, as an agnostic atheist, I can't deny he didn't create the universe, but you are the one who needs to prove he did.Further, the thermodynamics argument is old and tired. It's been refuted. I'm not going to cover this over once again. Do your research.(Wakka)
The evolutionists know this and so they came up with the “big bang” theory from that “cosmic egg” (the universe exploded into existence). But there is still a major problem—you have to explain where that “cosmic egg” came from. As it has been said, “There must be a cosmic chicken.”
For the universe being eternal, it either is or it isn't. There are scientists who think they found out what caused the "big bang" in String Theory, which explains that "cosmic egg". Am I saying this has been proven? No. It's only an idea, and thus I won't subscribe to it until the jury is in.(Wakka)
Some scientists like Carl Sagan and Isaac Asimov proposed the oscillating universe theory to avoid a beginning. This theory states that the universe acts like a yo-yo; it explodes and then gravity pulls it back in, and then the process repeats itself over and over. But the second law of Thermodynamics still refutes that idea, since each cycle would exhaust more and more usable energy. The universe is not eternal!
Sagan and Asimov proposed a theory. "Proposed" is the keyword here. They didn't prove, only said, "Here is an idea...discuss!" Please don't jump the gun.(Wakka)
Someone may argue, “If the universe needs a cause, then why doesn’t God need a cause; who created God?” The answer is, everything that has a beginning has a cause; God, unlike the universe, did not have a beginning. Time is linked to matter and space (as we can see from Einstein’s general relativity). If God created the universe, then He created time along with matter and space. If God created time, then He is outside of time and doesn’t need a beginning.
Prove that God is outside of Space-Time, and then I'll talk about the rest.(Wakka)
What is more absurd, to believe that God Created everything out of nothing or that nothing turned itself into everything? The fact is, we live in a Universe that is an effect. There must be a preceding and adequate cause for it. The only thing that makes sense is a Creator who is more powerful than anything we can imagine.
Refer to String Theory. It may show you that something came from something instead of nothing, which means that God is not the only thing that makes sense.(Wakka)
What are the odds of Jesus Christ being the Son of God?
You are once again bringing up the Bible. I will not answer nor respond to anything from this. Refer to many other statements within and without this current post as to the reason why.One thing I would like to comment on:(Wakka)
This scripture dating from way before the crucifixion details Christ's death. And we all know that Christ did die on the cross, and that he was real.
The veracity of Jesus' existence has now fallen under supreme skepticism. Refer to YouTube or the internet at large for "The God Who Wasn't There". This will answer many questions that I've doubtlessly just raised. I won't comment any more on this, however, as this is not the reason why I'm here. If you do have any specific questions about anything you're confused on that I said, I'll answer those.
 

Wakka

Super Member
Jun 4, 2007
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(Remagoen;37557)
The veracity of Jesus' existence has now fallen under supreme skepticism. Refer to YouTube or the internet at large for "The God Who Wasn't There". This will answer many questions that I've doubtlessly just raised. I won't comment any more on this, however, as this is not the reason why I'm here. If you do have any specific questions about anything you're confused on that I said, I'll answer those.
Please don't mind the section with the Biblical verses.
THE DARKNESS DURING THE CRUCIFIXIONGerardus D. Bouw, Ph.D.Introduction and the apologyIn these days of the Laodicean church age (see Revelation 3:14-22) the authority of the Bible has dwindled to nothing, even in the eyes of Christians. The authority of the Holy Writ has, in them, been replaced by the “great” men of this era: Moody, Spurgeon, Henry, Swindoll, Graham, Dobson, Copeland, and the like. The authority of the Holy Bible has been replaced by the authority of institutions such as Moody, Liberty, Bob Jones, etc. Finally, the authority of the Holy Bible has been replaced by the authorities of science, psychology, psychiatry, the legal system, human governments and corrupt government officials. The honor and obedience which is due God is given to such as these. Verily it is the beginning of the famine of Amos 8:11, the famine for the hearing of the words of the Lord.And so it is that I take keyboard in hand and construct an apology about the three hours of darkness that lasted while Jesus Christ hung on the cross. I do so risking the charge that I view these secular authorities as equal or greater than the Bible; and that I'm trying to use them to “prove the Bible.” If I believed the Bible could be proven by such “evidence,” the charge is well taken, but I believe the Bible first, and even if there were no corroborating testimony from other sources, I would still believe it. What proof can I offer against the charge? I am a geocentrist knowing full well that a proof for geocentricity is every bit as impossible to obtain (outside of the Scriptures) than proof for heliocentrism. Beyond that I'm fulfilling what Solomon wrote in Ecclesiastes 3:11, knowing full well that I'll never know everything. In summary, there's nothing wrong with reasoning men into the truth of the knowledge of God the Father and his only begotten Son, Jesus. Let us remember who it was who said: “Come, let us reason together,” (Isaiah 1:18); and that Paul reasoned with Jew and Gentile alike (Acts 18:4, 19; 24:25; etc.) about the salvation of Jesus Christ.The Biblical accountThat there was a darkness lasting three hours during the crucifixion is recorded in three of the Gospels. They read as follows: Matthew 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. Mark 15:33 And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour. Luke 23:44-48 And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. 45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst. 46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. 47 Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, Certainly this was a righteous man. 48 And all the people that came together to that sight, beholding the things which were done, smote their breasts, and returned.We see then that there were three hours of darkness which occurred while Jesus Christ hung on the cross. The time was from noon until 3:00 P.M. According to the account in Luke, the darkness and the earthquake that ended it (Matthew 27:54) were so impressive that the centurion in charge of the crucifixion glorified God, and all the people showed signs of remorse and fear.An eclipse?In true humanist style, men have proposed a natural cause for this darkness. No natural cause is indicated by the text, particularly the coincidence of the end of the darkness and the earthquake. The most common naturalistic explanation is that the darkness was caused by an eclipse of the sun.This speculation is too easy to refute. The passover, which is the time when Jesus was crucified, occurs at full moon, when the earth is between the moon and the sun. An eclipse of the sun can only occur when the moon is between the earth and the sun. Yet I've even seen astronomers try to date the eclipse by computing when such an eclipse might be visible at Jerusalem.The final nail in the eclipse's coffin is that a naturally occurring eclipse of the sun can last at most about seven and a half minutes, a far, far cry from three hours. One may, of course, charge the Bible with an error, that it exaggerated the duration of the eclipse, and such has been done by some, but reason says it cannot be an eclipse of the sun for such would have been a miracle greater than Joshua's long day or Hezekiah's sign, when the sun went back 10 degrees (lengthening that day by forty minutes). For this to have been an eclipse of the sun, the moon would have to perform a quantum jump of half a million miles, stop its orbital motion, and stay in front of the sun for three hours. Then it had to jump back to where it should have been had it never jumped to cover the sun. As P.T. Barnum reputedly said, there's one born every minute.Reports of Pontius Pilate to Augustus and to TiberiusThe reports in question are part of a collection called “Letters of Herod and Pilate”1 which stem from a Syraic manuscript of the sixth or seventh centuries. The manuscript is in the British Museum.The entire work is probably a forgery occasioned by a mention of such a letter (particularly the second of these, to Tiberius), by Justin Martyr when he wrote his “Defense of Christianity” to Emperor Antonius Pius about A.D. 150. There are several reasons to assume the forgery: 1. Herod is presented as extremely repentant, in total contradiction of his attitude in Acts 12. 2. Justinius is reported in one of the letters to have written about Christ whereas Photius elsewhere wrote that Justinius made no mention of Christ. 3. There are two reports which mention the darkness, namely the report to Augustus and the report to Tiberias; but Augustus died eighteen years before the crucifixion. This is a weak argument, though, since several Caesars took the title of Augustus (Hadrian, for example). It seems rather doubtful that Pilate would send two accounts to the same Caesar. 4. According to the letters, the chief charge which the Jews brought to Pilate against Christ was that he violated the Sabbath. The Bible, on the other hand, says that their main charge was that he declared himself to be King of the Jews, though amongst themselves the chief charge was that he “blasphemed” the temple and that he claimed to be the Son of God. Nevertheless, here is what is written in “The Report of Pilate the Governor, Concerning our Lord Jesus Christ; Which was Sent to Augustus Caesar, in Rome.” Now when he was crucified, there was darkness over all the world, and the sun was obscured for half a day, and the stars appeared, but no luster was seen in them; and the moon lost its brightness, as though tinged with blood; and the world of the departed was swallowed up; so that the very sanctuary of the temple, as they call it, did not appear to the Jews themselves as their fall, but they perceived a chasm in the earth, and the rolling successive thunders.2The main problem with this account is that the Bible records only three hours of darkness while here six are recorded. It is likely that the forger was confused by the “third hour (Mark 15:25) versus the sixth hour (John 19:14)” problem, for Matthew, Mark, and Luke used Jewish reckoning for time whereas John used Roman time.3 The Bible says in two places that the land was affected, but Luke refers to “all the earth” (Luke 23:44) which need not mean the whole world; for earth can refer to a country as it does, for example, in Exodus 10:15 (compare with verses 12 through 14).4 But more of that anon.”The Report of Pontius Pilate, Governor of Judea; Which was Sent to Tiberius Caesar in Rome” reads as follows: Now when he was crucified darkness came over all the world; the sun was altogether hidden, and the sky appeared dark while it was yet day, so that the stars were seen, though still they had their luster obscured, wherefore, I suppose your excellency is not unaware that in all the world they lighted their lamps from the sixth hour until evening. And the moon, which was like blood, did not shine all night long, although it was at the full, and the stars and Orion made lamentation over the Jews because of the transgression committed by them.5To the aforementioned problems we may now add the fanciful ending in which a constellation, the model of Nimrod, Orion, (which would have been visible in the easter sky at the time) is said to lament the Jews. The Jews call him Kesil, the fool. Would he lament if he could?PhlegonPhilopon6 and Origen7 draw from Phlegon's Olympiads (written A.D. 138) an account of the darkness of the crucifixion. Phlegon was a Greek astronomer. Origen's quote is the best documented and quite similar to Philopon's: That heathen author, in treating of the fourth year of the two hundred second Olympiad, which is supposed to be the year in which our Lord was crucified, tells us “That the greatest eclipse of the sun which was ever known to happened then; for the day was so turned into night that the stars in the heavens were seen.”To this account, Philopon adds that “this is shown by the historical account itself of Tiberius Caesar,” suggesting that a Roman account exists.The Acts of PilateJustin Martyr also referred to The Acts of Pilate which was forged by the Jews to deny the deity of Jesus Christ. Despite that, they bore witness that darkness did indeed accompany the crucifixion.ThallusAbout A.D. 52 the Samaritan historian, Thallus, wrote his Histories. Though no copies survive, we do have quotes of it from others. Thus Julius Africanus, writing about A.D. 220, refers to the Histories and says: Thallus, in the third book of his Histories, explains away this darkness as an eclipse of the sun — unreasonably, … of course, because a solar eclipse could not take place at the time of the full moon, and it was the season of the Paschal full moon that Christ died.The Lost Gospel According to PeterThis manuscript was allegedly found in 1886 in the grave of a monk who lived in Akhmim. This, too, seems a forgery as witnessed by having the ascension take place on the same day as the resurrection. Of the darkness it says: And it was noon, and darkness came over all Judea: and they were troubled and distressed, lest the sun had set while he was yet alive: it is written for them, that the sun set not on him that hath been put to death.8The manuscript adds that the sun shone again as they pulled the nails from Jesus's hands.TertullianIn his Apologeticus,9 written about A.D. 197, Tertullian wrote: … at that same moment, about noontide, the day was withdrawn; and they, who knew not that this was foretold concerning Christ, thought it was an eclipse. But this you have in your archives; you can read it there.The foretelling is found in Amos 8:9 where it says: “And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day.” There is really no suggestion in any of these accounts that the sun set at noon, but the darkness does apply. The sun going down at noon has yet a future fulfillment, as required not only by the context in which the passage is found, but also by the words of the Lord Jesus himself in Matthew 24:29 and in Mark 13:24.EusebiusWriting about the year 315, in his Chronicle, volume II, the historian and friend of the emperor Constantine, Eusebius, writes about the eighteenth10 year of Tiberius Caesar that: Christ suffered this year, in which time we find in other commentaries of the heathen these words: “There was a defection of the sun: Bithynia was shaken with an earthquake, and many houses fell down in the city of Nicea.” Unfortunately, Eusebius did not list the “other commentaries of the heathen.”Summary and ConclusionSome of the secular accounts of the darkness accompanying the crucifixion are plainly forgeries. We particularly singled out the two reports of Pontius Pilate to Augustus and to Tiberius, and the Acts of Pilate , the latter being without doubt a fiction. Some of the quotes are indirect, especially the later ones, after the second century. Of the sources quoted, the earliest is that of Thallus, allegedly written in A.D. 52, and it is the only one which mentions an eclipse, unless that word is wrongly translated from the Greek word for darkness or obscuration.We can be certain of what the Bible says about the three hours of darkness which occurred during the crucifixion. They started at noon and ended at 3:00 in the afternoon. The only thing which the secular accounts consistently add is that the darkness extended over the Mediterranean area, if not the whole world. Given the time of day, if the sun was darkened world-wide, then there may still be other accounts, undiscovered, of this darkening in Europe, Asia, Africa, and as far east as Australia and the Western-most Pacific. (It was night in the Americas throughout the three hours.) If anyone knows of such tales, please let me know so that these can be brought to light.The Bible is ambiguous about the geographical extent of the darkness. It does say that all the earth was in darkness, but it also says that the whole land was in darkness. Now the term earth may, in the Bible, mean either country, land mass, soil, or all the dry land everywhere. There is thus no violence done to the text per sé to adhere to either a darkness isolated to Judea or extending over the whole sphere of the earth. When I started this research I thought the darkness was local, but now I believe it likely to have been world-wide. It makes sense insofar as the scope of the crucifixion is concerned, for without Christ, all the world is in darkness. He took all our sins to the cross to make atonement for our souls, that we might have forgiveness of sins and be reconciled to God.The question arises, what would happen to the sun that it would go dark? Well, a special miracle cannot be ruled out, but it is possible that the sun was obscured by a cloud of interplanetary matter, which would also explain the lackluster of the stars. If a natural even has to be found, and I'm not saying that it has, this is the most likely. An interplanetary cloud could redden the moon, could obscure the sun, and could even provide a meteor shower which could be read into the “Report of Pontius Pilate” to Tiberias, but—and this is a big but—such a cloud would also obscure the stars. To have made the day sky dark, even the brightest stars would have faded out of visibility.A less likely one is that the entire sun became one huge sunspot. This may be caused by magnetic fields just under the surface of the sun. They physics is rather unusual, however.The darkness which accompanied Christ's crucifixion reinforced the significance of the crucifixion, as the sins of men were cast upon the sinless only begotten Son of God. Evidently the sun itself was darkened for three hours, reinforcing that the crucifixion has significance for all men. The most reasonable explanation is that the darkness was a special miracle. Yet once more will the world experience such darkness; and that time seems close at hand. Even so, come Lord Jesus.NOTES AND REFERENCES1 Translated and published in The Lost Books of the Bible and the Forgotten Books of Eden, 1926, published by Collins World. All references are from the thirty fifth printing, 1977. “Letters of Herod and Pilate” runs from pages 269-281 with the report to Augustus starting on page 273 and to Tiberias on page 275.2 Ibid., p. 274.3 Bouw, G.D., 1997. The Book of Bible Problems, (Assoc. for Biblical Astr., 4527 Wetzel Ave., Cleveland, Ohio), pp. 184-186.4 Bouw, G.D., 1992. Geocentricity, (Assoc. for Biblical Astr., 4527 Wetzel Ave., Cleveland, Ohio), pp. 15-16.5 Lost Books, Op. Cit., pp. 276-277.6 Philopon, De Opif, Mundi, II, 21.7 Origen, 210. Contra Celsum.8 Quoted from The Lost Books of the Bible, p. 283.9 Tertullian, ca. A.D. 197. Apologeticus, 21, 19-20 in The Loeb Classical Library, (New York: G. P. Putnam's Sons Publishing Co., 1931.10 There is a problem with this count. The year A.D. 32 was not a year in which the Passover could have been eaten symbolically the night before the official passover. The new moon nearest the Vernal Equinox, the first day of spring, was too far from the first day of spring itself. Only the years 30 and 33 are candidate years. (See: Bouw, The Book of Bible Problems, pp. 192-194 for particulars.) Eusebius or the translators may have confused the cardinal and ordinal numbers.http://www.geocentricity.com/ba1/no84/crucifixn.html
 

Remagoen

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Wakka,Are you going to realize I'm not going to get into a debate about the Bible?You tell me to ignore the sections with the Bible references, but the whole thing is laden with them. More, when I do ignore them, nothing makes sense. Further, it seems the whole thing is based on accounts of the Bible, which I've stated repeatedly I'm not going to get into.In regards to any form of the veracity of the Bible, I've referred you to places outside of this conversation where you can examine any pieces of evidence and judge them for yourself. If you choose to disregard them, that is up to you. You have your own mind and intelligence, use it. But when dealing with me and this conversation, please stop bringing up the Bible before I start to completely ignore you.Thank you.Moving on...Why did you not address a single other point I made in my last post?
 

Wakka

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Wakka,Are you going to realize I'm not going to get into a debate about the Bible?You tell me to ignore the sections with the Bible references, but the whole thing is laden with them. More, when I do ignore them, nothing makes sense. Further, it seems the whole thing is based on accounts of the Bible, which I've stated repeatedly I'm not going to get into.In regards to any form of the veracity of the Bible, I've referred you to places outside of this conversation where you can examine any pieces of evidence and judge them for yourself. If you choose to disregard them, that is up to you. You have your own mind and intelligence, use it. But when dealing with me and this conversation, please stop bringing up the Bible before I start to completely ignore you.Thank you.
Why can you NOT read anything with Bible Verses? The BIBLE is a HUGE part of Christianity. And no, it's not laden, it just has references. Read the entire thing, then talk to me about it.You're not going to get anywhere without getting into the Bible and comparing for yourself. You're just wasting your time.
 

Remagoen

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Why can you NOT read anything with Bible Verses? The BIBLE is a HUGE part of Christianity. And no, it's not laden, it just has references. Read the entire thing, then talk to me about it.You're not going to get anywhere without getting into the Bible and comparing for yourself. You're just wasting your time.
I see no point in continuing discussion with you. I've already explained why several times. Thank you for your time and dialog, Wakka.
 

Wakka

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I see no point in continuing discussion with you. I've already explained why several times. Thank you for your time and dialog, Wakka.
You're welcome. I'm just trying to tell you that would won't wield the results you want/need without first diving into some scripture.
 

Hawkins

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What does that mean?
I mean things can be multi-folded. Things may not be simple and straight forward.But literally you are right, the Eden story is not a parable, literally speaking.
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Hawkins

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Don't mistake dedication for faith. The SETI project is the SEARCH for Extra Terrestrial Intelligence. Searching implies they don't know there's life out there, but they have their eyes and ears open. This is the same thing I have going for God. I've had my eyes and ears open for a while and I'm going getting anything.
No I didn't mistaken. Read Edision (one of the brightest scientists in human history) and you will find that he disagree with you.
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Hawkins

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Don't mistake dedication for faith. The SETI project is the SEARCH for Extra Terrestrial Intelligence. Searching implies they don't know there's life out there, but they have their eyes and ears open. This is the same thing I have going for God. I've had my eyes and ears open for a while and I'm going getting anything.
No I didn't mistaken. Read Thomas Edison (one of the brightest scientists in human history) and you will find that he disagree with you.
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While dedication is just your effort put forward to tasks which have nothing to do with the nature of your tasks.They keep searching in the hope that one day they will find the alliens, though the possibility isn't sound = faithWhen everyone says something is impossible and you keep on trying it = faith (quite a blind one, and it's not dedication at all)Faith is something related to chances and possibilities, dedication doesn't bear that nature, you can dedicate to something you are quite sure about that it will be fruitful.
 

Remagoen

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No I didn't mistaken. Read Thomas Edison (one of the brightest scientists in human history) and you will find that he disagree with you.
smile.gif
While dedication is just your effort put forward to tasks which have nothing to do with the nature of your tasks.They keep searching in the hope that one day they will find the alliens, though the possibility isn't sound = faithWhen everyone says something is impossible and you keep on trying it = faith (quite a blind one, and it's not dedication at all)Faith is something related to chances and possibilities, dedication doesn't bear that nature, you can dedicate to something you are quite sure about that it will be fruitful.
Since you seem to hold Edison in such high regard, did you know he was a Deist? This means he disagrees with you. Now, you can either say you think he's right or you think he's wrong. If you think he's wrong, why must I accept that it's "faith" just because he did? You'll be holding me to a double standard if I have to change my ways because he thought something, while you don't. If you think he's right... Well then, I guess you don't believe in the Christian God.Probability is something related to chances and possibilities. I think you're confusing an open mind and dedication with faith.