RemagoenI actually think your on the right path. I would like to go alot more indepth with you but I have 5 minutes before school begins. You are looking for God, you don't know what kind of God, you don't know what religon is right, and you don't want to delve in the bible or christianity as right now its all meaningless as God right now is meaningless.The best solution I can think of is to give one true prayer up to God to show himself to you. Two Things could happen.1) God could not be real and the prayer would bounce off the ceiling and hit you in the forehead. No harm done2) God could show himself to you and you could live for a God you now understand. and your knowledge would only keep goingGod bless youYour brother Ryan Fitz
I don't want to be an Atheist
- Thread starter Remagoen
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To Letsgofishing,(Letsgofishing;39668)
RemagoenI actually think your on the right path. I would like to go alot more indepth with you but I have 5 minutes before school begins. You are looking for God, you don't know what kind of God, you don't know what religon is right, and you don't want to delve in the bible or christianity as right now its all meaningless as God right now is meaningless.The best solution I can think of is to give one true prayer up to God to show himself to you. Two Things could happen.1) God could not be real and the prayer would bounce off the ceiling and hit you in the forehead. No harm done2) God could show himself to you and you could live for a God you now understand. and your knowledge would only keep goingGod bless youYour brother Ryan Fitz
Tried it for years and that's why I'm here. Nothing happened. To Thunder1,I'm fine.
RemagoenI actually think your on the right path. I would like to go alot more indepth with you but I have 5 minutes before school begins. You are looking for God, you don't know what kind of God, you don't know what religon is right, and you don't want to delve in the bible or christianity as right now its all meaningless as God right now is meaningless.The best solution I can think of is to give one true prayer up to God to show himself to you. Two Things could happen.1) God could not be real and the prayer would bounce off the ceiling and hit you in the forehead. No harm done2) God could show himself to you and you could live for a God you now understand. and your knowledge would only keep goingGod bless youYour brother Ryan Fitz
Tried it for years and that's why I'm here. Nothing happened. To Thunder1,I'm fine.
(Remagoen;39673)
To Letsgofishing,Tried it for years and that's why I'm here. Nothing happened. To Thunder1,I'm fine.
But something did happen. You went to a christianity forum.This reveals that you want to learn more about God.and that God has revealed himself to you as the christian God. and more will happenI find that God reveals himself to other people. Listen to the people in this forum. God might reveal more.
To Letsgofishing,Tried it for years and that's why I'm here. Nothing happened. To Thunder1,I'm fine.
But something did happen. You went to a christianity forum.This reveals that you want to learn more about God.and that God has revealed himself to you as the christian God. and more will happenI find that God reveals himself to other people. Listen to the people in this forum. God might reveal more.
Letsgofishing does have a point...God reveals Himself in the most unexpected ways, Remagoen. I went exactly what you're going through right now 3 years ago... at first I was an atheist until I saw God in someone else's life, which led me to beleive that God only cared for certain people... which is of course not true
To Letsgofishing,(Letsgofishing;39674)
But something did happen. You went to a christianity forum.
So God overrode my free will and made me come here?(Letsgofishing;39674)
This reveals that you want to learn more about God.
Yes, but that doesn't reveal God exists.(Letsgofishing;39674)
and that God has revealed himself to you as the christian God.
No he didn't, nor did he reveal himself at all. Besides, you have no idea what other forums I'm on and what books I'm reading.(Letsgofishing;39674)
and more will happen
Like my contemplating leaving his forum, as I've yet to hear one solid argument that didn't have some form of hole in it? All you're doing now is assuming. And you know what assuming does...(Letsgofishing;39674)
I find that God reveals himself to other people. Listen to the people in this forum. God might reveal more.
He reveals himself to other people. Yippy. But because that man over there believes in a magic cupcake, does that mean I should to? I'd want to see that magic cupcake before I believe it has magical powers.I am listening to the people on this forum, and many of them aren't saying a whole lot. They make lots of leaps of faith and logical fallacies. If you'd like to read how, you have to go no further than this thread.To Super Kal,(Super Kal)
Letsgofishing does have a point...God reveals Himself in the most unexpected ways, Remagoen. I went exactly what you're going through right now 3 years ago... at first I was an atheist until I saw God in someone else's life, which led me to beleive that God only cared for certain people... which is of course not true
No he doesn't have a point. Read above why.And if he reveals himself in unexpected ways, he's done a great job of either not revealing himself or not doing it right. You'd think a supernatural being could get the job done...Please, though, describe how you saw God in other people and tell me how it's not true.
But something did happen. You went to a christianity forum.
So God overrode my free will and made me come here?(Letsgofishing;39674)
This reveals that you want to learn more about God.
Yes, but that doesn't reveal God exists.(Letsgofishing;39674)
and that God has revealed himself to you as the christian God.
No he didn't, nor did he reveal himself at all. Besides, you have no idea what other forums I'm on and what books I'm reading.(Letsgofishing;39674)
and more will happen
Like my contemplating leaving his forum, as I've yet to hear one solid argument that didn't have some form of hole in it? All you're doing now is assuming. And you know what assuming does...(Letsgofishing;39674)
I find that God reveals himself to other people. Listen to the people in this forum. God might reveal more.
He reveals himself to other people. Yippy. But because that man over there believes in a magic cupcake, does that mean I should to? I'd want to see that magic cupcake before I believe it has magical powers.I am listening to the people on this forum, and many of them aren't saying a whole lot. They make lots of leaps of faith and logical fallacies. If you'd like to read how, you have to go no further than this thread.To Super Kal,(Super Kal)
Letsgofishing does have a point...God reveals Himself in the most unexpected ways, Remagoen. I went exactly what you're going through right now 3 years ago... at first I was an atheist until I saw God in someone else's life, which led me to beleive that God only cared for certain people... which is of course not true
No he doesn't have a point. Read above why.And if he reveals himself in unexpected ways, he's done a great job of either not revealing himself or not doing it right. You'd think a supernatural being could get the job done...Please, though, describe how you saw God in other people and tell me how it's not true.
(Remagoen;39685)
To Super Kal,No he doesn't have a point. Read above why.And if he reveals himself in unexpected ways, he's done a great job of either not revealing himself or not doing it right. You'd think a supernatural being could get the job done...Please, though, describe how you saw God in other people and tell me how it's not true.
He does get the job done, Remagoen... but it's according to His time, and not ours. We can't go into this and expect Him to answer us right when we want Him to... it just doesn't work that way, and the reason people on here take those leaps of faith is because they have personally seen Him and His love working in their lives... I saw Him through a good friend of mine and my dad. The only reason I thought He wasn't doing anything for me was because my life was falling apart at the time with my health and my parent's separation. It wasn't until my fifth suicide attempt that God felt it was time to answer a prayer I had been praying for 12 years.
To Super Kal,No he doesn't have a point. Read above why.And if he reveals himself in unexpected ways, he's done a great job of either not revealing himself or not doing it right. You'd think a supernatural being could get the job done...Please, though, describe how you saw God in other people and tell me how it's not true.
He does get the job done, Remagoen... but it's according to His time, and not ours. We can't go into this and expect Him to answer us right when we want Him to... it just doesn't work that way, and the reason people on here take those leaps of faith is because they have personally seen Him and His love working in their lives... I saw Him through a good friend of mine and my dad. The only reason I thought He wasn't doing anything for me was because my life was falling apart at the time with my health and my parent's separation. It wasn't until my fifth suicide attempt that God felt it was time to answer a prayer I had been praying for 12 years.
(Super Kal;39691)
He does get the job done, Remagoen... but it's according to His time, and not ours. We can't go into this and expect Him to answer us right when we want Him to... it just doesn't work that way, and the reason people on here take those leaps of faith is because they have personally seen Him and His love working in their lives...
Well, show me how he gets the job done. Provide examples.They take leaps of faith because they've seen him. That is, by definition, not a leap of faith.(Super Kal;39691)
I saw Him through a good friend of mine and my dad. The only reason I thought He wasn't doing anything for me was because my life was falling apart at the time with my health and my parent's separation. It wasn't until my fifth suicide attempt that God felt it was time to answer a prayer I had been praying for 12 years.
I don't mean to use this against you, but you said it was your 5th attempt. 5th. I'm sorry, but five times is six times too many to me. An all loving God wouldn't even allow reason for suicide, let alone contemplation and forget about the actual action of it. I promise you, if I had supernatural powers, that never would have happened. I promise you, if I was your friend at that time, I would have stood by you. In fact, I've already done the same thing with another friend of mine. She tells me she's never seen happier days for such a long time before.Regardless of God, though... I must say, even if we don't agree on things, I'm glad your still around.
He does get the job done, Remagoen... but it's according to His time, and not ours. We can't go into this and expect Him to answer us right when we want Him to... it just doesn't work that way, and the reason people on here take those leaps of faith is because they have personally seen Him and His love working in their lives...
Well, show me how he gets the job done. Provide examples.They take leaps of faith because they've seen him. That is, by definition, not a leap of faith.(Super Kal;39691)
I saw Him through a good friend of mine and my dad. The only reason I thought He wasn't doing anything for me was because my life was falling apart at the time with my health and my parent's separation. It wasn't until my fifth suicide attempt that God felt it was time to answer a prayer I had been praying for 12 years.
I don't mean to use this against you, but you said it was your 5th attempt. 5th. I'm sorry, but five times is six times too many to me. An all loving God wouldn't even allow reason for suicide, let alone contemplation and forget about the actual action of it. I promise you, if I had supernatural powers, that never would have happened. I promise you, if I was your friend at that time, I would have stood by you. In fact, I've already done the same thing with another friend of mine. She tells me she's never seen happier days for such a long time before.Regardless of God, though... I must say, even if we don't agree on things, I'm glad your still around.
(Remagoen;39685)
To Letsgofishing,So God overrode my free will and made me come here?Yes, but that doesn't reveal God exists.No he didn't, nor did he reveal himself at all. Besides, you have no idea what other forums I'm on and what books I'm reading.Like my contemplating leaving his forum, as I've yet to hear one solid argument that didn't have some form of hole in it? All you're doing now is assuming. And you know what assuming does...He reveals himself to other people. Yippy. But because that man over there believes in a magic cupcake, does that mean I should to? I'd want to see that magic cupcake before I believe it has magical powers.I am listening to the people on this forum, and many of them aren't saying a whole lot. They make lots of leaps of faith and logical fallacies. If you'd like to read how, you have to go no further than this thread.To Super Kal,No he doesn't have a point. Read above why.And if he reveals himself in unexpected ways, he's done a great job of either not revealing himself or not doing it right. You'd think a supernatural being could get the job done...Please, though, describe how you saw God in other people and tell me how it's not true.
I said " God reveals himself to other people." I meant through other people." sorry for the confusion.1. No of course he didn't over ride your free will, but he did inspire you.2. I find the only way to prove God exists is to give him a chance. Are you truly open to God showing himself to you. If you are, try not limiting him to your standards and instead open yourself up to his3. and that hole every time has to do with your resistance to faith. We can't prove beyond a reasonable doubt that God exists, only God himself can do that, and only if you open yourself to him. 4.Exactly the magic cupcake is a lie. But the difference is,We know we are telling the truth,and how because God has revealed himself to us.5. Why don't don't you take the same illogical leaps of faith, you will be overjoyed at what you find.I am looking foward to you being in my christian family.May God reveal himself to you in all his GloryRyan Fitz
To Letsgofishing,So God overrode my free will and made me come here?Yes, but that doesn't reveal God exists.No he didn't, nor did he reveal himself at all. Besides, you have no idea what other forums I'm on and what books I'm reading.Like my contemplating leaving his forum, as I've yet to hear one solid argument that didn't have some form of hole in it? All you're doing now is assuming. And you know what assuming does...He reveals himself to other people. Yippy. But because that man over there believes in a magic cupcake, does that mean I should to? I'd want to see that magic cupcake before I believe it has magical powers.I am listening to the people on this forum, and many of them aren't saying a whole lot. They make lots of leaps of faith and logical fallacies. If you'd like to read how, you have to go no further than this thread.To Super Kal,No he doesn't have a point. Read above why.And if he reveals himself in unexpected ways, he's done a great job of either not revealing himself or not doing it right. You'd think a supernatural being could get the job done...Please, though, describe how you saw God in other people and tell me how it's not true.
I said " God reveals himself to other people." I meant through other people." sorry for the confusion.1. No of course he didn't over ride your free will, but he did inspire you.2. I find the only way to prove God exists is to give him a chance. Are you truly open to God showing himself to you. If you are, try not limiting him to your standards and instead open yourself up to his3. and that hole every time has to do with your resistance to faith. We can't prove beyond a reasonable doubt that God exists, only God himself can do that, and only if you open yourself to him. 4.Exactly the magic cupcake is a lie. But the difference is,We know we are telling the truth,and how because God has revealed himself to us.5. Why don't don't you take the same illogical leaps of faith, you will be overjoyed at what you find.I am looking foward to you being in my christian family.May God reveal himself to you in all his GloryRyan Fitz
(Remagoen;39673)
To Letsgofishing,Tried it for years and that's why I'm here. Nothing happened. To Thunder1,I'm fine.
Thunder1: I don't believe you are fine - because you said you don't want to be atheist and you still are,is that true?
To Letsgofishing,Tried it for years and that's why I'm here. Nothing happened. To Thunder1,I'm fine.
Thunder1: I don't believe you are fine - because you said you don't want to be atheist and you still are,is that true?
(Remagoen;36831)
I'm an agnostic atheist.
I'm sorry if this sounds rude, but I am not sure you know what these terms mean. You cannot be an agnostic atheist, just like you cannot be a Christian Hindu. Agnostic is someone who thinks we cannot know if there is a god or not. Atheist is someone who does not believe in god. It is not a matter of what you want to call yourself, it is a matter of belief. When you say you were not an atheist, but you just did not believe in god... Well, that is pretty much the definition of atheism. I know the term has rather negative connotations and people sometimes do not want to be called atheist even when they are one. Nevertheless, if you do not believe in god, you are an atheist. However, if you are not sure, that does make you an agnostic or an atheist, or any combination of the two. It just makes you confused (but that is okay too, sometimes it's helpful to be confused for a bit). It sounds to me like you are not an agnostic or an atheist. It seems that you have some doubts about your faith and you want to strengthen your faith (you still seem to believe in the Christian God even if you don't think so). An agnostic or atheist would not try to strengthen their (Christian) faith (because they would have none) any more than a Christian would want to disprove or weaken their faith.By-the-by, why do you feel like you have to choose sides?
I'm an agnostic atheist.
I'm sorry if this sounds rude, but I am not sure you know what these terms mean. You cannot be an agnostic atheist, just like you cannot be a Christian Hindu. Agnostic is someone who thinks we cannot know if there is a god or not. Atheist is someone who does not believe in god. It is not a matter of what you want to call yourself, it is a matter of belief. When you say you were not an atheist, but you just did not believe in god... Well, that is pretty much the definition of atheism. I know the term has rather negative connotations and people sometimes do not want to be called atheist even when they are one. Nevertheless, if you do not believe in god, you are an atheist. However, if you are not sure, that does make you an agnostic or an atheist, or any combination of the two. It just makes you confused (but that is okay too, sometimes it's helpful to be confused for a bit). It sounds to me like you are not an agnostic or an atheist. It seems that you have some doubts about your faith and you want to strengthen your faith (you still seem to believe in the Christian God even if you don't think so). An agnostic or atheist would not try to strengthen their (Christian) faith (because they would have none) any more than a Christian would want to disprove or weaken their faith.By-the-by, why do you feel like you have to choose sides?
To Letsgofishing,
Letsgofishing;39699]I said " God reveals himself to other people." I meant through other people." sorry for the confusion.[/QUOTE]That said:
(Remagoen;39789)
Won't happen. I won't be in your family.
then why are you still here?It's completely obvious to me that you just don't want to hear our side of it... your heart and mind are closed, because if they weren't, you'd actively want to see and hear the truth and unconditional love that Jesus has and wants for you.It hurts and deeply saddens me to see you live this life of a lie... that's what Satan wants. He wants you to actively doubt and hate everything that our loving Father has for us.I ask you... as a former atheist... please, if just for 10 seconds, drop all conceived beliefs of this world and just cry out to Him. I can't guarantee He'll do the same thing He did with me, but if you truly call out to Him with everything that you are, if it's His will for you, He will reveal Himself to you.
Won't happen. I won't be in your family.
then why are you still here?It's completely obvious to me that you just don't want to hear our side of it... your heart and mind are closed, because if they weren't, you'd actively want to see and hear the truth and unconditional love that Jesus has and wants for you.It hurts and deeply saddens me to see you live this life of a lie... that's what Satan wants. He wants you to actively doubt and hate everything that our loving Father has for us.I ask you... as a former atheist... please, if just for 10 seconds, drop all conceived beliefs of this world and just cry out to Him. I can't guarantee He'll do the same thing He did with me, but if you truly call out to Him with everything that you are, if it's His will for you, He will reveal Himself to you.
Hi there. Sometimes I can't help but get involved in these conversations. I'm not sure if anything I have to say will be helpful, but as I type I am asking the Holy Spirit to anoint each word for His glory and for Him to testify of Himself as only He can do. You see, we as humans, are really powerless without Christ to tell you, convince, convict of sin, or accomplish anything that needs to be done. But, we have someone within us who knows you intimately because He made you. He won't force Himself on you, for He has complete love for you, but He has provided a way to heaven for you through His sacrifice on the cross. You may be a good person, but there have been times when you, like all of us, have done mean things, dishonest things, lacking integrity. You have broken God's commandments, so you aren't okay. He can forgive you and is ready to do that. He promises never to leave you. Once you accept Him, you will feel Him because He comes inside you and puts His seal upon you. Have you ever been in a room before and almost felt like someone else was in there with you? Has anything ever happened to you and you couldn't explain it with human facts? Well, there are plenty of people that have, and I don't mean this money or fame stuff you see on television. I'm talking about in the real, everyday experiences of life. Anyway, there's a song that I would like to quote to you because every time I hear it, I have tears come to my eyes and I want to raise my hands in worship. I'm so happy and feel so blessed that I am a part of the family of God. Tim Sheppard sings it and it's called "Love Reachin' ". It goes like this: You left the glory of heaven's throne to rescue what was left of life for me; rewrote my story, restored my soul, you looked into my heart and saw my need. And I should have know You would be waiting at the end of my road, I should have known- Love reachin', love touchin', love holdin' on to me,receivin', forgivin', love holdin' on to me; the Hands I nailed to Calvary's tree are reachin' out beyond eternity holdin' on to me. No crashing thunder, no hurricane; a still, small voice keeps whisperin' my name. Love without measure, love without end; with all my faults, You love me just the same. And when I feel like letting go, Your arms reach out to hold me, the lover of my soul. (You can hear a sample of it at timsheppard.org web site. It's so beautiful and worshipful. He's like a Christian Michael McDonald.) I sure hope you find Christ. That is my prayer for you. He wants you. He's waiting for you. Won't you come to the cross? There's plenty of room.
(His By Grace;39792)
Hi there. Sometimes I can't help but get involved in these conversations. I'm not sure if anything I have to say will be helpful, but as I type I am asking the Holy Spirit to anoint each word for His glory and for Him to testify of Himself as only He can do. You see, we as humans, are really powerless without Christ to tell you, convince, convict of sin, or accomplish anything that needs to be done. But, we have someone within us who knows you intimately because He made you. He won't force Himself on you, for He has complete love for you, but He has provided a way to heaven for you through His sacrifice on the cross. You may be a good person, but there have been times when you, like all of us, have done mean things, dishonest things, lacking integrity. You have broken God's commandments, so you aren't okay. He can forgive you and is ready to do that. He promises never to leave you. Once you accept Him, you will feel Him because He comes inside you and puts His seal upon you. Have you ever been in a room before and almost felt like someone else was in there with you? Has anything ever happened to you and you couldn't explain it with human facts? Well, there are plenty of people that have, and I don't mean this money or fame stuff you see on television. I'm talking about in the real, everyday experiences of life. Anyway, there's a song that I would like to quote to you because every time I hear it, I have tears come to my eyes and I want to raise my hands in worship. I'm so happy and feel so blessed that I am a part of the family of God. Tim Sheppard sings it and it's called "Love Reachin' ". It goes like this: You left the glory of heaven's throne to rescue what was left of life for me; rewrote my story, restored my soul, you looked into my heart and saw my need. And I should have know You would be waiting at the end of my road, I should have known- Love reachin', love touchin', love holdin' on to me,receivin', forgivin', love holdin' on to me; the Hands I nailed to Calvary's tree are reachin' out beyond eternity holdin' on to me. No crashing thunder, no hurricane; a still, small voice keeps whisperin' my name. Love without measure, love without end; with all my faults, You love me just the same. And when I feel like letting go, Your arms reach out to hold me, the lover of my soul. (You can hear a sample of it at timsheppard.org web site. It's so beautiful and worshipful. He's like a Christian Michael McDonald.) I sure hope you find Christ. That is my prayer for you. He wants you. He's waiting for you. Won't you come to the cross? There's plenty of room.
Your a child of God and inside you know that.We'll praying that one day you will return to God and find true happiness.God bless you
Hi there. Sometimes I can't help but get involved in these conversations. I'm not sure if anything I have to say will be helpful, but as I type I am asking the Holy Spirit to anoint each word for His glory and for Him to testify of Himself as only He can do. You see, we as humans, are really powerless without Christ to tell you, convince, convict of sin, or accomplish anything that needs to be done. But, we have someone within us who knows you intimately because He made you. He won't force Himself on you, for He has complete love for you, but He has provided a way to heaven for you through His sacrifice on the cross. You may be a good person, but there have been times when you, like all of us, have done mean things, dishonest things, lacking integrity. You have broken God's commandments, so you aren't okay. He can forgive you and is ready to do that. He promises never to leave you. Once you accept Him, you will feel Him because He comes inside you and puts His seal upon you. Have you ever been in a room before and almost felt like someone else was in there with you? Has anything ever happened to you and you couldn't explain it with human facts? Well, there are plenty of people that have, and I don't mean this money or fame stuff you see on television. I'm talking about in the real, everyday experiences of life. Anyway, there's a song that I would like to quote to you because every time I hear it, I have tears come to my eyes and I want to raise my hands in worship. I'm so happy and feel so blessed that I am a part of the family of God. Tim Sheppard sings it and it's called "Love Reachin' ". It goes like this: You left the glory of heaven's throne to rescue what was left of life for me; rewrote my story, restored my soul, you looked into my heart and saw my need. And I should have know You would be waiting at the end of my road, I should have known- Love reachin', love touchin', love holdin' on to me,receivin', forgivin', love holdin' on to me; the Hands I nailed to Calvary's tree are reachin' out beyond eternity holdin' on to me. No crashing thunder, no hurricane; a still, small voice keeps whisperin' my name. Love without measure, love without end; with all my faults, You love me just the same. And when I feel like letting go, Your arms reach out to hold me, the lover of my soul. (You can hear a sample of it at timsheppard.org web site. It's so beautiful and worshipful. He's like a Christian Michael McDonald.) I sure hope you find Christ. That is my prayer for you. He wants you. He's waiting for you. Won't you come to the cross? There's plenty of room.
Your a child of God and inside you know that.We'll praying that one day you will return to God and find true happiness.God bless you
Dear Remagoen,First of all, I have to apologise. I had never heard the terms "weak atheist", "strong atheist" or "agnostic atheist" before, so I decided to look them up. It is very strange though, because I do research on something that is very closely related to religion, agnosticism and atheism (and no, it is not bad research
). I suppose, these are not terms or definitions ever used in the scientific community of which I am a member or outside it for that matter. (I live in Europe, perhaps they are more commonly used in the US?) Therefore, perhaps I should define what I mean by atheist and agnostic more clearly. Atheist is someone who does believe in god(s) of any kind. Agnostic is someone who is not absolutely certain about if there is or is not a god (or gods) and may lean towards not believing in god(s). Therefore, by this definition, the terms are mutually exclusive. (See OED.) I am sorry if there was a misunderstanding. These are tricky matters.
I'm an atheist. I say that proudly. I'm not worried about any negative connotation that word has. I AM AN ATHEIST. See?
I did not say you necessarily care, but a lot of people do care, because the negative connotations of the term are considered reflections of how atheism is seen. However, this makes me wonder... If you are an atheist and proud of it, why did you title this thread as "I don't want to be an Atheist"?
If I call myself an atheist, I'm being honest. If I call myself an agnostic, I'm not being 100% honest. There is no way I can gain all the information in the world. Do you agree? Because of that, I could never know if there is really a god out there or not because I don't have all the information. Do you agree? Because I can't know if there is a god, that makes me an agnostic, do you agree?However, with all the information I have at my disposal right now, I don't see god. I don't see anything influenced by god. So, with what I have on hand as this very moment, I choose to be a skeptic, I choose to be an Atheist. This way I'm being honest with myself and those around me.Hence, I'm an agnostic atheist, because I can't know everything, but I've made my choice.
Knowing everything is of course impossible (besides which there are lots of things of which we know nothing or very little), but the difference between atheist and agnostic or a religious person is not the amount of knowledge, as I am sure you agree. It is that an atheist believes that regardless of everything what they may not know there is no god. An agnostic, however, thinks that there may be a god or there may not be a god - or even have a leaning one way or the other - but think that we just cannot know, at least not based on any current information we have. A religious person on the other hand believes that there is proof of god (also without knowing or hearing everything that may possibly convince them otherwise). In addition, you can think about the aspect of collective knowledge (just to ponder...). Although you cannot personally know everything that may prove or disprove the existence of god, you know something and other people know other things. What do you know together? What can you learn from discussing with other people? And as far as knowing if there is or is not god, if someone happened to come across all the right knowledge to know the answer for a fact, I am sure it would be out in a second.By-the-by, many atheists say they may be wrong, so admitting that alone does not make one any less or more atheist.
I also don't have any doubts on my faith. What I have is an open mind. What I have is the intellectual honesty to say, "I don't believe you, but I might be wrong."An agnostic might try to strength their faith, a (strong) atheist would definitely not try to have any faith at all (though sometimes it does happen, like Antony Flew). An agnostic (weak) atheist, someone who would admit that they might be wrong, is willing to take limited chances.I'll say this again because I think It's worth it: I'm not confused, I'm open-minded.
I do not think an agnostic really has any faith (unless not knowing/believing we cannot know is one), so they would not try to strengthen it. Agnostic must not be confused for someone who wants to believe in god or is unhappy being an agnostic. In my opinion an agnostic is the closest of anyone to not having religion or a world-view based on a belief. Atheism is (as well as religion) are largely based on belief (albeit, actually scientifically proving there is no god would be quite a task indeed...), but I do not think atheists have to try not to have faith, they just do not. Having an open-mind is a very good thing indeed. However, if you are proud to be an atheist and are not confused, but just have an open-mind, I once again must wonder about the title of the thread...
To find my place in the world. To answer every teen's question, "Who am I?" So that I may further explore my own mind knowing the boundaries and thoughts, and so that I may grow as an adult.I don't want to make it sound like I was trying to polarize myself (though I admit that did happen unintentionally). I just wanted to know who I was and what I believed.
I think it is possible to find your place without choosing sides. You (not you personally necessarily) should not just choose an ideology to define who you are, you should choose an ideology that feels right to you, when you are ready. Anyway, I think you will find that your ideology will change and grow with you (and if you are a teenager, trust me, I am an oldie compared to you, been there, done that).
In any case, it's good that you are thinking about these things anyway, a lot of people don't.
I'm an atheist. I say that proudly. I'm not worried about any negative connotation that word has. I AM AN ATHEIST. See?
I did not say you necessarily care, but a lot of people do care, because the negative connotations of the term are considered reflections of how atheism is seen. However, this makes me wonder... If you are an atheist and proud of it, why did you title this thread as "I don't want to be an Atheist"?
If I call myself an atheist, I'm being honest. If I call myself an agnostic, I'm not being 100% honest. There is no way I can gain all the information in the world. Do you agree? Because of that, I could never know if there is really a god out there or not because I don't have all the information. Do you agree? Because I can't know if there is a god, that makes me an agnostic, do you agree?However, with all the information I have at my disposal right now, I don't see god. I don't see anything influenced by god. So, with what I have on hand as this very moment, I choose to be a skeptic, I choose to be an Atheist. This way I'm being honest with myself and those around me.Hence, I'm an agnostic atheist, because I can't know everything, but I've made my choice.
Knowing everything is of course impossible (besides which there are lots of things of which we know nothing or very little), but the difference between atheist and agnostic or a religious person is not the amount of knowledge, as I am sure you agree. It is that an atheist believes that regardless of everything what they may not know there is no god. An agnostic, however, thinks that there may be a god or there may not be a god - or even have a leaning one way or the other - but think that we just cannot know, at least not based on any current information we have. A religious person on the other hand believes that there is proof of god (also without knowing or hearing everything that may possibly convince them otherwise). In addition, you can think about the aspect of collective knowledge (just to ponder...). Although you cannot personally know everything that may prove or disprove the existence of god, you know something and other people know other things. What do you know together? What can you learn from discussing with other people? And as far as knowing if there is or is not god, if someone happened to come across all the right knowledge to know the answer for a fact, I am sure it would be out in a second.By-the-by, many atheists say they may be wrong, so admitting that alone does not make one any less or more atheist.
I also don't have any doubts on my faith. What I have is an open mind. What I have is the intellectual honesty to say, "I don't believe you, but I might be wrong."An agnostic might try to strength their faith, a (strong) atheist would definitely not try to have any faith at all (though sometimes it does happen, like Antony Flew). An agnostic (weak) atheist, someone who would admit that they might be wrong, is willing to take limited chances.I'll say this again because I think It's worth it: I'm not confused, I'm open-minded.
I do not think an agnostic really has any faith (unless not knowing/believing we cannot know is one), so they would not try to strengthen it. Agnostic must not be confused for someone who wants to believe in god or is unhappy being an agnostic. In my opinion an agnostic is the closest of anyone to not having religion or a world-view based on a belief. Atheism is (as well as religion) are largely based on belief (albeit, actually scientifically proving there is no god would be quite a task indeed...), but I do not think atheists have to try not to have faith, they just do not. Having an open-mind is a very good thing indeed. However, if you are proud to be an atheist and are not confused, but just have an open-mind, I once again must wonder about the title of the thread...
To find my place in the world. To answer every teen's question, "Who am I?" So that I may further explore my own mind knowing the boundaries and thoughts, and so that I may grow as an adult.I don't want to make it sound like I was trying to polarize myself (though I admit that did happen unintentionally). I just wanted to know who I was and what I believed.
I think it is possible to find your place without choosing sides. You (not you personally necessarily) should not just choose an ideology to define who you are, you should choose an ideology that feels right to you, when you are ready. Anyway, I think you will find that your ideology will change and grow with you (and if you are a teenager, trust me, I am an oldie compared to you, been there, done that).
Remagoen
o you think atheists are depressed?Thunder1:Are you ? I think anybody can be depressed, we are all just humans .Love,Thunder1
o you think atheists are depressed?Thunder1:Are you ? I think anybody can be depressed, we are all just humans .Love,Thunder1To Super Kal,
I'm still here because I've found that I can indeed hold intelligent conversations with individuals on this board, like Stlizzy, Kalixx, and now recently Amira. Because they have thoughts behind their words, and because they make me think about old things in new ways or think about new things all together.
I'm still here because I wish to continue conversation with these three, and possibly more. They may say something that could totally break the ice with me and allow me to see God for the first time.
I'm still here because I admit I might be wrong.
You have damn near insulted me. Read what I have just said to you above. Are those not the hallmarks of an open mind??? Just because I don't accept faith and don't accept everything you say, just because I can tear holes in your logic, doesn't mean I'm closed minded.
But I shall reposte: Is there anything I can say to you that would convince you that God isn't real?
Life as a lie? Excuse me, but I lead my life as honestly as I can. I refuse to tell lies except for certain circumstances, just ask that friend I told you about who I saved from suicide. Sometimes she would ask me things in the middle of a suicidal thought. I refused to lie, and so I told her, "I don't think we go anywhere, I think we just rot in the ground." I told her that I thought suicide was a very stupid idea. You know what? She's alive today because I told her what I thought to be was truth; she's alive because at least ONE person in her life didn't tell her that he would pray for her. I actually did something. She'll tell you the same.
I tried that for much longer than 10 seconds. I tried it when I was a child. I tried it again when I was an adolescent. I tired it again when I was a teen, a young adult, an adult. But to humor you, I'll try it again right now...
...I guess it'd his will for me to be an atheist.
I forewarn you: If you insult me like that again, this conversation will be terminated.
To His By Grace,
You can be a good parent and still show yourself to your child while not forcing yourself onto your kid. I don't think it'll be that hard for a god to say, "Hey, you, kid. I'm here. 'Sup?" I can still choose to love him or not after that.
You are correct. I'm not perfect and I'll never claim it.
And this is where your argument starts to fall apart. You've yet to prove the existence of God, so I can brush aside the 10.
Sure, who hasn't. But it doesn't mean it was God.
Not that I know of. I did see a UFO once in the Berkshire's of Massachusetts. It was this bright, bright white light just before dawn, moving silently across the sky. It was brighter than the moon, just a little smaller. It truly scared me.
It took me over a year to figure out what it was: The International Space Station. It was reflecting the light from the sun off it's solar panels, and because it was just before dawn, it was in line-of-sight of the sun while we were in shade.
Moral of the story: Don't assume something. Just because you don't know what it was right then doesn't mean that it is supernatural. This would also stop the God of the Gaps from popping up: "We don't know what it is therefore it must be God." Horrible logic, that is.
(To any reader who wishes to read it, please refer to the original post. Just trying to save space.)
There are plenty of people who once believed the world is flat, that Scientology works, that seizures were caused by demons, that the plague was caused by Jews, that Comets brought bad luck. Strength in numbers means nothing. Please, give me a real argument to work with.
I'm not a fan of country, but I read it nonetheless. I can't say I felt anything from it, probably because I don't believe in God. I do thank you for sharing it with me though.
To Letsgofishing,
Do you have any idea how ignorant that sounds? Here, let me give you a taste: "Deep down inside, your the pony of the Invisible Pink Unicorn! You know that and you feel that!" Do you? Nah, I don't think so. But you see how ignorant that is, right?
Don't you think that if I felt like I was the child of God, we wouldn't be having this conversation? Stop resorting to ignorant claims or I'll sick the Purple Oyster on you. He doesn't like pony's of the IPU, and he wants you to live at the bottom of the sea with him.
There's been a study done. Praying is bad for your health. But don't believe me, look it up yourself. Here's a good starting point: http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/06-04-05.html
You have to scroll down a bit. Oh, and btw, the study was funded by the Templeton Institute. That should mean something.
To Amira,
The weak/strong terms have only recently (matter of a year or two, I think) entered into the American lexicon, and it was coined by evangelicals, if I remember correctly. The terms, to me at least, seemed logical enough to adopt, and so I've went with it. Wikipedia has a decent explaination of it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism
Just scroll down to the definitions and distinctions.
You say, "Atheist is someone who does believe in god(s) of any kind." I assume you meant "doesn't"? (Also, you mention that you live in Europe. Is English a second language? If so and if that is the only mistake you have, pat yourself on the back! VERY good job!)
I can never be 100% certain that there is no God(s), which sounds agnostic to me. However, with the information I've had on hand so far, I've decided there very likely isn't one, which sounds atheistic. From that, I only mashed the two words together in hopes that they would complement one another, but it seems they didn't. You mention something later though with has bearing on this, so I'll continue this thought in a moment.
Because if I am an atheist, I won't be going to heaven any time soon. In the course of these conversations though on this forum, my mind has opened a bit and I've already changed some of my stances. One of them being that if there even is a heaven, do I want to go there? When I started this thread, I wasn't able to say that I was proud, but I wasn't ashamed either.
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Are you saying that knowledge is equal but divided among groups? If so, I can't agree totally with you, but I certainly see your reasoning behind it. However, because some knowledge isn't true (the world is flat, for instance), I would have to ask you back: Is it really equal?
To me, the idea of collective knowledge has it's ups and downs. It makes sense where, say, I would know items A through M while you know N through Z, and together we know the whole alphabet of items. We could combine our knowledge to get a complete view of the universe around us. That's the positive half of CK.
The downside is that it assumes that all of our bits of information is true, and it's clear that not everything any of us knows is 100% factual. Therefore, how do we know my K and your Q is actually as they appear? More, there are some things that even the whole of humanity don't know. Assuming we go with the scientific version of the creation of the universe (for argument's sake), we have not a single idea of what happened before the Big Bang. So it could be said that I'm missing items D, E, and F and you're missing W, X, and Y. So just comparing notes won't help us.
However! You still do bring up a valid point. Proper discussion with two or more open minds can certainly brings us at least one step closer to knowing what we seek. Comparing notes would still be a useful tool to understand things, with a grain of salt, of course.
As for being out in a second, oh yeah... It definitely would. Only problem is that it's happening too often already and most of them are fakes of misunderstandings. A shame.
Now to return to that through from before. I know, but it just felt to me that if I say, "I'm an atheist," it also sounds like I'm saying, "That's it! I have discovered that there is no God and it's final." It sounds closed-minded. If I added agnostic to it, I thought it would "open it up" a bit to show I still have an open mind, but I'm standing on this side of the line. But clearly, they do contradict.
Do you think there is another way I could call myself an atheist while still saying that I admit there might be a God?
Oh, and I'm not one to do something just because others do...
I disagree. Atheism is the lack of belief.
As for the title, I already explained that.
That's what I meant. I didn't mean for it to sound as if I was shopping for personality traits, I meant I was exploring who I was inside and trying to find the words to make sense of what I found. I saw other people who were this or were that, when I had no idea what I believed or thought. I had no lens through which to view the world, no viewpoint which I could make decisions upon. I guess you could have called me a formless blob of thoughts with no order.
My exploration brought order to myself, and from that lack of chaos within, I was able to form opinions about the world around me. This exploration wasn't limited to my atheism, but to many other things. It was the introspection that finally showed me how my constant lying stopped myself from knowing my true self. Since then, I've limited my lies to only lying to save a life or for the safety of someone else. If I didn't do my homework because I was watching TV, I told my teacher I didn't do my homework because I was watching TV. Why lie? It's pointless without proper reason.
I'm rambling, sorry. No, my atheism isn't finite, and that's why I'm here. I'm not done looking inside, and I hope to never be. I'm 23, btw, and thank you for the compliment.
To Thunder1,
Cool. Because, like I said, I'm I'm fine. However, it's changed since then. I'm quite good!
Super Kal said:
I'm still here because I've found that I can indeed hold intelligent conversations with individuals on this board, like Stlizzy, Kalixx, and now recently Amira. Because they have thoughts behind their words, and because they make me think about old things in new ways or think about new things all together.
I'm still here because I wish to continue conversation with these three, and possibly more. They may say something that could totally break the ice with me and allow me to see God for the first time.
I'm still here because I admit I might be wrong.
Super Kal said:
You have damn near insulted me. Read what I have just said to you above. Are those not the hallmarks of an open mind??? Just because I don't accept faith and don't accept everything you say, just because I can tear holes in your logic, doesn't mean I'm closed minded.
But I shall reposte: Is there anything I can say to you that would convince you that God isn't real?
Super Kal said:
Life as a lie? Excuse me, but I lead my life as honestly as I can. I refuse to tell lies except for certain circumstances, just ask that friend I told you about who I saved from suicide. Sometimes she would ask me things in the middle of a suicidal thought. I refused to lie, and so I told her, "I don't think we go anywhere, I think we just rot in the ground." I told her that I thought suicide was a very stupid idea. You know what? She's alive today because I told her what I thought to be was truth; she's alive because at least ONE person in her life didn't tell her that he would pray for her. I actually did something. She'll tell you the same.
Super Kal said:
I tried that for much longer than 10 seconds. I tried it when I was a child. I tried it again when I was an adolescent. I tired it again when I was a teen, a young adult, an adult. But to humor you, I'll try it again right now...
...I guess it'd his will for me to be an atheist.
I forewarn you: If you insult me like that again, this conversation will be terminated.
To His By Grace,
His By Grace;39792 said:
You can be a good parent and still show yourself to your child while not forcing yourself onto your kid. I don't think it'll be that hard for a god to say, "Hey, you, kid. I'm here. 'Sup?" I can still choose to love him or not after that.
His By Grace;39792 said:
You are correct. I'm not perfect and I'll never claim it.
His By Grace;39792 said:
And this is where your argument starts to fall apart. You've yet to prove the existence of God, so I can brush aside the 10.
His By Grace;39792 said:
Sure, who hasn't. But it doesn't mean it was God.
His By Grace;39792 said:
Not that I know of. I did see a UFO once in the Berkshire's of Massachusetts. It was this bright, bright white light just before dawn, moving silently across the sky. It was brighter than the moon, just a little smaller. It truly scared me.
It took me over a year to figure out what it was: The International Space Station. It was reflecting the light from the sun off it's solar panels, and because it was just before dawn, it was in line-of-sight of the sun while we were in shade.
Moral of the story: Don't assume something. Just because you don't know what it was right then doesn't mean that it is supernatural. This would also stop the God of the Gaps from popping up: "We don't know what it is therefore it must be God." Horrible logic, that is.
His By Grace;39792 said:
(To any reader who wishes to read it, please refer to the original post. Just trying to save space.)
There are plenty of people who once believed the world is flat, that Scientology works, that seizures were caused by demons, that the plague was caused by Jews, that Comets brought bad luck. Strength in numbers means nothing. Please, give me a real argument to work with.
His By Grace;39792 said:
I'm not a fan of country, but I read it nonetheless. I can't say I felt anything from it, probably because I don't believe in God. I do thank you for sharing it with me though.
To Letsgofishing,
Letsgofishing said:
Do you have any idea how ignorant that sounds? Here, let me give you a taste: "Deep down inside, your the pony of the Invisible Pink Unicorn! You know that and you feel that!" Do you? Nah, I don't think so. But you see how ignorant that is, right?
Don't you think that if I felt like I was the child of God, we wouldn't be having this conversation? Stop resorting to ignorant claims or I'll sick the Purple Oyster on you. He doesn't like pony's of the IPU, and he wants you to live at the bottom of the sea with him.
Letsgofishing said:
There's been a study done. Praying is bad for your health. But don't believe me, look it up yourself. Here's a good starting point: http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/06-04-05.html
You have to scroll down a bit. Oh, and btw, the study was funded by the Templeton Institute. That should mean something.
To Amira,
Amira;39820 said:Dear Remagoen,
First of all, I have to apologise. I had never heard the terms "weak atheist", "strong atheist" or "agnostic atheist" before, so I decided to look them up. It is very strange though, because I do research on something that is very closely related to religion, agnosticism and atheism (and no, it is not bad research). I suppose, these are not terms or definitions ever used in the scientific community of which I am a member or outside it for that matter. (I live in Europe, perhaps they are more commonly used in the US?) Therefore, perhaps I should define what I mean by atheist and agnostic more clearly. Atheist is someone who does believe in god(s) of any kind. Agnostic is someone who is not absolutely certain about if there is or is not a god (or gods) and may lean towards not believing in god(s). Therefore, by this definition, the terms are mutually exclusive. (See OED.) I am sorry if there was a misunderstanding. These are tricky matters.
The weak/strong terms have only recently (matter of a year or two, I think) entered into the American lexicon, and it was coined by evangelicals, if I remember correctly. The terms, to me at least, seemed logical enough to adopt, and so I've went with it. Wikipedia has a decent explaination of it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism
Just scroll down to the definitions and distinctions.
You say, "Atheist is someone who does believe in god(s) of any kind." I assume you meant "doesn't"? (Also, you mention that you live in Europe. Is English a second language? If so and if that is the only mistake you have, pat yourself on the back! VERY good job!)
I can never be 100% certain that there is no God(s), which sounds agnostic to me. However, with the information I've had on hand so far, I've decided there very likely isn't one, which sounds atheistic. From that, I only mashed the two words together in hopes that they would complement one another, but it seems they didn't. You mention something later though with has bearing on this, so I'll continue this thought in a moment.
Amira;39820 said:
Because if I am an atheist, I won't be going to heaven any time soon. In the course of these conversations though on this forum, my mind has opened a bit and I've already changed some of my stances. One of them being that if there even is a heaven, do I want to go there? When I started this thread, I wasn't able to say that I was proud, but I wasn't ashamed either.
Amira;39820 said:
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Are you saying that knowledge is equal but divided among groups? If so, I can't agree totally with you, but I certainly see your reasoning behind it. However, because some knowledge isn't true (the world is flat, for instance), I would have to ask you back: Is it really equal?
Amira;39820 said:
To me, the idea of collective knowledge has it's ups and downs. It makes sense where, say, I would know items A through M while you know N through Z, and together we know the whole alphabet of items. We could combine our knowledge to get a complete view of the universe around us. That's the positive half of CK.
The downside is that it assumes that all of our bits of information is true, and it's clear that not everything any of us knows is 100% factual. Therefore, how do we know my K and your Q is actually as they appear? More, there are some things that even the whole of humanity don't know. Assuming we go with the scientific version of the creation of the universe (for argument's sake), we have not a single idea of what happened before the Big Bang. So it could be said that I'm missing items D, E, and F and you're missing W, X, and Y. So just comparing notes won't help us.
However! You still do bring up a valid point. Proper discussion with two or more open minds can certainly brings us at least one step closer to knowing what we seek. Comparing notes would still be a useful tool to understand things, with a grain of salt, of course.
As for being out in a second, oh yeah... It definitely would. Only problem is that it's happening too often already and most of them are fakes of misunderstandings. A shame.
Amira;39820 said:
Now to return to that through from before. I know, but it just felt to me that if I say, "I'm an atheist," it also sounds like I'm saying, "That's it! I have discovered that there is no God and it's final." It sounds closed-minded. If I added agnostic to it, I thought it would "open it up" a bit to show I still have an open mind, but I'm standing on this side of the line. But clearly, they do contradict.
Do you think there is another way I could call myself an atheist while still saying that I admit there might be a God?
Oh, and I'm not one to do something just because others do...
Amira;39820 said:
I disagree. Atheism is the lack of belief.
As for the title, I already explained that.
Amira;39820 said:I think it is possible to find your place without choosing sides. You (not you personally necessarily) should not just choose an ideology to define who you are, you should choose an ideology that feels right to you, when you are ready. Anyway, I think you will find that your ideology will change and grow with you (and if you are a teenager, trust me, I am an oldie compared to you, been there, done that).In any case, it's good that you are thinking about these things anyway, a lot of people don't.
That's what I meant. I didn't mean for it to sound as if I was shopping for personality traits, I meant I was exploring who I was inside and trying to find the words to make sense of what I found. I saw other people who were this or were that, when I had no idea what I believed or thought. I had no lens through which to view the world, no viewpoint which I could make decisions upon. I guess you could have called me a formless blob of thoughts with no order.
My exploration brought order to myself, and from that lack of chaos within, I was able to form opinions about the world around me. This exploration wasn't limited to my atheism, but to many other things. It was the introspection that finally showed me how my constant lying stopped myself from knowing my true self. Since then, I've limited my lies to only lying to save a life or for the safety of someone else. If I didn't do my homework because I was watching TV, I told my teacher I didn't do my homework because I was watching TV. Why lie? It's pointless without proper reason.
I'm rambling, sorry. No, my atheism isn't finite, and that's why I'm here. I'm not done looking inside, and I hope to never be. I'm 23, btw, and thank you for the compliment.
To Thunder1,
Thunder1 said:
Cool. Because, like I said, I'm I'm fine. However, it's changed since then. I'm quite good!
Remagoen:Cool. Because, like I said, I'm I'm fine. However, it's changed since then. I'm quite good!Thunder1:Why did you ask that question about depression?
(Thunder1)
Why did you ask that question about depression?
In many, many conversations with many religious persons (Christian or not), most of them brought out the "All Atheist's are depressed" card. It looked like it was going to surface right now, and I wanted to put a stop to it before it happened. I didn't mean to be overly aggressive with it, just became a Pavlovian response, I guess.
Why did you ask that question about depression?
In many, many conversations with many religious persons (Christian or not), most of them brought out the "All Atheist's are depressed" card. It looked like it was going to surface right now, and I wanted to put a stop to it before it happened. I didn't mean to be overly aggressive with it, just became a Pavlovian response, I guess.
Remagoen, from what I understand from a few posts up your looking for a better description of your stance. Since Athiest and Agnostic really don't COMPLETELY describe where your at but your obviously willing to listen to other ideas, hence your presence here, I would just tell people that it doesn't really matter where your at but that your willing to listen. So drop those athiest and agnostic and just go with willing and open. I think that pretty much describes where your at, and it also lets people know that your open-minded, something that you previously said you wished ppl to know.I noticed that most of your questions have been directed at specific people, I am new to this thread but I am more than willing to answer any questions you should feel inclined to ask me. I cannot guarantee that I will have an immediate answer to every question but I will get you an answer. And something I am a little hazy on, do you look at things in a scientific view or do you just want answers that can be backed up. They sound similar but are quite different. I have some experience discussing with athiests from both sides. Anyway I will be awaiting any questions from you.
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