Poll Bible

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Should i Read the bible for myself

  • Yes (give me a book to start on)

    Votes: 7 100.0%
  • No (reason please)

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    7
  • Poll closed .

Pilgrimer

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Jun 20, 2013
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Greetings, Pilgrimer.
I found your post interesting, but when I got to this part here I needed to question you on it. Saturnalia went back to well before the second century BCE. Yet you have it coming along in around 400 AD. Where did you get your information from?

Greetings to you as well. I apologize up front for this lengthy post but the historical record has much to say on this issue.

The Saturnalia of the late Roman period was very different from the primitive celebration, even the date had been changed. Originally, the Saturnalia was a one-day celebration on December 15 to commemorate the dedication of the Temple to Saturn in the Roman Forum on that date in 497 B.C. But the holiday underwent significant changes and early on the practice of human sacrifice and offering human heads to the deity was discontinued and replaced with the offering of face masks or small coins depicting human heads. The “gifts” that were exchanged were small “sigillaria,” wax figurines that could be offered in place of human sacrifice. But even as late as the 3rd century A.D., the bodies of Roman gladiators killed in the games were still being offered as sacrifices until intense criticism from Christians forced the practice to cease.

But even as early as 217 B.C., the Saturnalia underwent some major reforms when many Greek rites were adopted including the addition of the public feast. The date too changed over the years. In 46 B.C. Julius Caesar made a major calendar reform to correct the drift and after the reform the Saturnalia fell on December 17. Under Emperor Augustus (27 B.C. – 14 A.D.) the holiday was extended to a three-day fair, December 15 to December 17 to accommodate both dates. Saturnalia underwent another reform under Caligula and the date for the celebration was again adjusted to five days from December 17 to December 21. At some point in the late Roman period the Saturnalia merged with the winter solstice and became a 7-day holiday, from December 17 to December 23. But this was long after the record shows the Christians celebrating the birth of Jesus on December 25.

Another Roman holiday often cited as the “origins” of the Christmas celebration is “Natalis Sol Invictus,” the birthday of the Unconquered. However, the cult of Sol Invictus didn’t even begin in Rome until Emperor Aurelian adopted it in 274 A.D. (almost 200 years after the first record of Christmas on December 25), and even then it was not a popular cult. And it wasn’t until 354 A.D. that the first mention of a celebration of the birth of Sol Invictus on December 25 was started when 30 games were ordered to be held every year to celebrate the new holiday. This was almost 250 years after the Christians record celebrating Jesus’ birth on December 25 and well after the Christianization of Rome and only a few years after Julian the Apostate tried to adopt Christians practices to win back former pagan. And that same calendar that marks the beginning of the games to celebrate the birthday of Sol Invictus, also mentions the birth of Jesus Christ in Bethlehem, Judea on that date, thus demonstrating that Christmas was not an adaptation of the Roman Natilis Sol Invictus but coincided with the beginning of that holiday.

But beyond that, the actual historical records show that Christians were celebrating the birth of Jesus as early as 98 A.D.

Clement of Rome, who was a co-worker with the Apostle Paul (Philippians 4:3), wrote in his letter to the churches: “Brethren, keep diligently the feast days; and truly in the first place the day of Christ’s birth.”

And then in 137 A.D., Telesphorus of Rome wrote instructions to the churches that the birth of Jesus should be kept as a solemn feast with the performance of Divine Services, on the 25th of December. His particular instructions were, “that in the holy night of the Nativity of our Lord and Savior, they do celebrate public Church services, and in them solemnly sing the Angels’ Hymn, because also the same night he was declared unto the shepherds by an angel, as the truth itself doth witness.”

Also Hippolytus (ca. 165 – 235 C.E.), in his commentary on Daniel 4:23 wrote: “The first coming of our Lord, that is in the flesh, in which he was born at Bethlehem, took place eight days before the Kalends of January …” Eight days before the calends of January is December 25.

And another citation: Theophilus of Antioch (ca. 171 – 183 C.E.), in his discussion about the proper time to observe Easter states that the Gauls contended that just as they celebrated the birth of the Lord on December 25, regardless of what day of the week that fell on, so too Christians ought to celebrate Easter on March 25, regardless of what day of the week that fell on. (Magdeburgenses, Cent. 2. c. 6. Hospinian, de orign Festorum Chirstianorum)

And then in the following century, Cyprian begins his famous “Treatise on the Nativity:” “The much wished for and long expected Nativity of Christ is come, the famous solemnity is come.”

These ancient records prove that from the very earliest days of the Christian faith, even during the times of those who lived and worked with the Apostles, Christians were celebrating the birth of Jesus, and on December 25. So all the theories about Christians adopting some pagan Roman holiday in the 4th century is a poorly contrived attempt to discredit Christianity.

Much of that is derived from the discredited work of a man named Alexander Hislop who wrote an incredibly ill-informed and virulently anti-Catholic book in which he attempted to prove his theory that the Roman Catholic Church is the “Mystery Babylon” of the Revelation. He was not educated or trained in any actual historical or archaeological field and his many loose associations between ancient Mesopotamian gods and their cults with Roman Catholic beliefs and practices have been roundly disproven and condemned as the invention of anti-Catholic propaganda.

I’m not Roman Catholic and disagree with many of their doctrines and practices, but I have studied the Judeo/Christian faith enough to know that many of the rites and ceremonial of orthodox Christian churches are not derived from pagan sources but are in fact adaptations of the Jewish rites and customs of the 2nd Temple period. It’s actually a quite fascinating study.

But back to the point: not only is it not true that Christians of the 4th century were busily adopting paganism into the faith but the actual historical record shows quite the opposite. It was in fact the Roman Emperor Julian the Apostate who became so anti-Christian that in a long letter to his pagan high priest Arsacius, he admitted that persecution of the Christians had only made them stronger and that from that point the high priest was to instruct all the pagan priests that in an attempt to win back the hearts and minds of the Roman citizens who had been converted to Christ and had neglected the “faith of their fathers” leaving the pagan temples to fall into disrepair and the pagan gods unworshipped, that they were to emulate the Christians in their benevolence to the poor and widows and orphans and try to draw the Roman masses back to the ancient gods. Now this was the Emperor of Rome who wrote this in a letter and it proves that rather than 4th century Christians adopting pagan practices to make Christianity palatable to Romans, it was instead pagan Romans including the Emperor himself who started adopting Christian practices to make the old pagan Roman gods palatable once again to the Roman people.

As a final note, I have often heard that it was at the Council of Nicea that the Church at Rome ordered the observance of Easter on Sunday, which again is historically incorrect and further is a terrible accusation against the leaders of the Christian world of that day, many of whom bore in their own bodies the proof of their loyalty to the Gospel of Christ. But that's another subject perhaps for another time.

Again, it’s a very interesting study and the records are readily available, but if you need help locating anything just let me know. It’s been a while since I first researched all this.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer
P.S. You will find that those who oppose Christmas and Easter generally oppose Christianity itself, at least their version of it which is invariably riddled with error and misunderstanding.
 

Hidden In Him

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May 10, 2018
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Greetings to you as well. I apologize up front for this lengthy post but the historical record has much to say on this issue.

The Saturnalia of the late Roman period was very different from the primitive celebration, even the date had been changed. Originally, the Saturnalia was a one-day celebration on December 15 to commemorate the dedication of the Temple to Saturn in the Roman Forum on that date in 497 B.C. But the holiday underwent significant changes and early on the practice of human sacrifice and offering human heads to the deity was discontinued and replaced with the offering of face masks or small coins depicting human heads. The “gifts” that were exchanged were small “sigillaria,” wax figurines that could be offered in place of human sacrifice. But even as late as the 3rd century A.D., the bodies of Roman gladiators killed in the games were still being offered as sacrifices until intense criticism from Christians forced the practice to cease.

But even as early as 217 B.C., the Saturnalia underwent some major reforms when many Greek rites were adopted including the addition of the public feast. The date too changed over the years. In 46 B.C. Julius Caesar made a major calendar reform to correct the drift and after the reform the Saturnalia fell on December 17. Under Emperor Augustus (27 B.C. – 14 A.D.) the holiday was extended to a three-day fair, December 15 to December 17 to accommodate both dates. Saturnalia underwent another reform under Caligula and the date for the celebration was again adjusted to five days from December 17 to December 21. At some point in the late Roman period the Saturnalia merged with the winter solstice and became a 7-day holiday, from December 17 to December 23. But this was long after the record shows the Christians celebrating the birth of Jesus on December 25.

Another Roman holiday often cited as the “origins” of the Christmas celebration is “Natalis Sol Invictus,” the birthday of the Unconquered. However, the cult of Sol Invictus didn’t even begin in Rome until Emperor Aurelian adopted it in 274 A.D. (almost 200 years after the first record of Christmas on December 25), and even then it was not a popular cult. And it wasn’t until 354 A.D. that the first mention of a celebration of the birth of Sol Invictus on December 25 was started when 30 games were ordered to be held every year to celebrate the new holiday. This was almost 250 years after the Christians record celebrating Jesus’ birth on December 25 and well after the Christianization of Rome and only a few years after Julian the Apostate tried to adopt Christians practices to win back former pagan. And that same calendar that marks the beginning of the games to celebrate the birthday of Sol Invictus, also mentions the birth of Jesus Christ in Bethlehem, Judea on that date, thus demonstrating that Christmas was not an adaptation of the Roman Natilis Sol Invictus but coincided with the beginning of that holiday.

But beyond that, the actual historical records show that Christians were celebrating the birth of Jesus as early as 98 A.D.

Clement of Rome, who was a co-worker with the Apostle Paul (Philippians 4:3), wrote in his letter to the churches: “Brethren, keep diligently the feast days; and truly in the first place the day of Christ’s birth.”

And then in 137 A.D., Telesphorus of Rome wrote instructions to the churches that the birth of Jesus should be kept as a solemn feast with the performance of Divine Services, on the 25th of December. His particular instructions were, “that in the holy night of the Nativity of our Lord and Savior, they do celebrate public Church services, and in them solemnly sing the Angels’ Hymn, because also the same night he was declared unto the shepherds by an angel, as the truth itself doth witness.”

Also Hippolytus (ca. 165 – 235 C.E.), in his commentary on Daniel 4:23 wrote: “The first coming of our Lord, that is in the flesh, in which he was born at Bethlehem, took place eight days before the Kalends of January …” Eight days before the calends of January is December 25.

And another citation: Theophilus of Antioch (ca. 171 – 183 C.E.), in his discussion about the proper time to observe Easter states that the Gauls contended that just as they celebrated the birth of the Lord on December 25, regardless of what day of the week that fell on, so too Christians ought to celebrate Easter on March 25, regardless of what day of the week that fell on. (Magdeburgenses, Cent. 2. c. 6. Hospinian, de orign Festorum Chirstianorum)

And then in the following century, Cyprian begins his famous “Treatise on the Nativity:” “The much wished for and long expected Nativity of Christ is come, the famous solemnity is come.”

These ancient records prove that from the very earliest days of the Christian faith, even during the times of those who lived and worked with the Apostles, Christians were celebrating the birth of Jesus, and on December 25. So all the theories about Christians adopting some pagan Roman holiday in the 4th century is a poorly contrived attempt to discredit Christianity.

Much of that is derived from the discredited work of a man named Alexander Hislop who wrote an incredibly ill-informed and virulently anti-Catholic book in which he attempted to prove his theory that the Roman Catholic Church is the “Mystery Babylon” of the Revelation. He was not educated or trained in any actual historical or archaeological field and his many loose associations between ancient Mesopotamian gods and their cults with Roman Catholic beliefs and practices have been roundly disproven and condemned as the invention of anti-Catholic propaganda.

I’m not Roman Catholic and disagree with many of their doctrines and practices, but I have studied the Judeo/Christian faith enough to know that many of the rites and ceremonial of orthodox Christian churches are not derived from pagan sources but are in fact adaptations of the Jewish rites and customs of the 2nd Temple period. It’s actually a quite fascinating study.

But back to the point: not only is it not true that Christians of the 4th century were busily adopting paganism into the faith but the actual historical record shows quite the opposite. It was in fact the Roman Emperor Julian the Apostate who became so anti-Christian that in a long letter to his pagan high priest Arsacius, he admitted that persecution of the Christians had only made them stronger and that from that point the high priest was to instruct all the pagan priests that in an attempt to win back the hearts and minds of the Roman citizens who had been converted to Christ and had neglected the “faith of their fathers” leaving the pagan temples to fall into disrepair and the pagan gods unworshipped, that they were to emulate the Christians in their benevolence to the poor and widows and orphans and try to draw the Roman masses back to the ancient gods. Now this was the Emperor of Rome who wrote this in a letter and it proves that rather than 4th century Christians adopting pagan practices to make Christianity palatable to Romans, it was instead pagan Romans including the Emperor himself who started adopting Christian practices to make the old pagan Roman gods palatable once again to the Roman people.

As a final note, I have often heard that it was at the Council of Nicea that the Church at Rome ordered the observance of Easter on Sunday, which again is historically incorrect and further is a terrible accusation against the leaders of the Christian world of that day, many of whom bore in their own bodies the proof of their loyalty to the Gospel of Christ. But that's another subject perhaps for another time.

Again, it’s a very interesting study and the records are readily available, but if you need help locating anything just let me know. It’s been a while since I first researched all this.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer
P.S. You will find that those who oppose Christmas and Easter generally oppose Christianity itself, at least their version of it which is invariably riddled with error and misunderstanding.

Wow. That's fascinating stuff. I'm not Catholic either but I've long recognized there is often more complex support behind their doctrines and practices than meets the eye.

I'm saving this to file. Thought I would let you know your work didn't go unappreciated.

Blessings in Christ Jesus!
Hidden In Him
 
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Pilgrimer

Active Member
Jun 20, 2013
337
70
28
Mobile, Alabama
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Wow. That's fascinating stuff. I'm not Catholic either but I've long recognized there is often more complex support behind their doctrines and practices than meets the eye.

I'm saving this to file. Thought I would let you know your work didn't go unappreciated.

Blessings in Christ Jesus!
Hidden In Him

Thank you, and a very Merry Christmas.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer
 
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CoreIssue

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Oct 15, 2018
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While not reading the whole thread it touches upon the very critical issue.

Yes, one should read and study the Bible for themselves.

Yes, they should listen to the claims of others and then test them for truth using the Bible.

The worst way study and think you know the Bible is to simply read the denominational doctrine. Especially cult one's like Jehovah witness, Mormons and Catholics.

Paul warns us against us in Galatians.
 
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