"Christendom.....we have a problem"

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bigape

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May 22, 2008
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In these last days, we are seeing a lot of new ideas, in the area of ministry: E.G. Video presentations, Power point presentations, You tube videos, sites like this etc.. And although there is nothing wrong with these tools, there is "something wrong". Because during this same period of time, the Church's mission is failing. (i.e. People's lives aren't being changed). Therefore, we must be doing something wrong. Before I continue, let me explain how we can tell, that people's lives, aren't being changed. It all has to do with, a lack of true repentance. Some Churches may be full, but the people's hearts are empty; And the reason we know this, is because of all the open sin in their lives. When Jesus is changing people, they are going to be dealing with their sin. And when people are dealing with their sins, pornography and alcohol sales, start dropping off. -This isn't happening.- Now back to my main point; i.e. "The question is, how we can have all the latest technology at our disposal, and yet our message seems to be powerless to really change people's lives?" The source to this problem, has to do with a lack of power. How can we be preaching, "the right message", yet see that same message, powerless to change people's lives? The answer to this question, boils down to "words". We may have "the right message" but are we using the right words to convey it? There is a doctrine, that all true believers accept, but many misunderstand it. That is, the doctrine of "verbal inspiration". We all agree on what "inspiration" means: (i.e. "God breathed") but what about that word, "verbal"? The word verbal, means "using words". God gave us our Bible, using "words", and not simply ideas. Therefore, the true power of God's message, lies in His Words, and not just in His message. This is the whole issue with the King James Version, of the Bible. These who translated the King James, believed that the words were important, therefore they translated the original languages into English, word for word(as close as it could be). But the philosophy behind "every other English translation", is that "words aren't important, but the ideas are;" This is why they feel free to change the words, any way they choose. (Like has be said for years, "If you change the words you change the meaning!") But something else has happened. When the words are changed, the power of the words is taken away. Today, most ministers, are trying to get God's message out to the world and the Church; But they are overlooking a vital component, to God's message. We must use "God's Words", to get God's message across, with power. God's powerful message is, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." and not, "For God had such love for the world that he gave his only Son, so that whoever has faith in him may not come to destruction but have eternal life." Note: When you change the words, you rob the message, of God's power!
 

Gareth

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May 27, 2008
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(bigape;51065)
But the philosophy behind "every other English translation", is that "words aren't important, but the ideas are;" This is why they feel free to change the words, any way they choose. (Like has be said for years, "If you change the words you change the meaning!")
It's not true that the majority of English translations change the words. It's only in contemporary translations. There are many modern translations that are literal in it's words and offer suggestions in the footnotes if there is a difference in some codexes.However you will never get the full meaning of the words in a translation, you will have to pursue Hebrew and Greek if you are looking for that.
 

winsome

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Feb 15, 2008
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I think you claim too much for the KJVThere is always a problem in translation because very often words do not simply translate word for word. Then whichever word is chosen loses or adds something.For example (and this may a bad one - I don't know) but which is more true to the Greek eternal or everlasting? And does it matter?I read somewhere that there are many different Greek words which we translate as "pray". But each of the Greek words must have some subtle differences which get lost by using the same word.But I think there is a much more important reason why the mission is failing than translations, and that is that Christians are not living a truly Christian lifestyle. We are not seen to be holy and different from non-christians. We are not seen to have something that others are attracted by. And also unless we are living holy lives then any Word of God we proclaim will lose much of its power, whatever the translation used.
 

eliyahu

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May 27, 2008
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Amen guys. bigape, I run into the KJV only things so often and every which way. There is a great book entitled The King James Only Controvery, Can We Trust The Modern Translations? It couldn't be a beeter book for you to read on this topic.Two things. A. The KJV is riddles with more "errors" in tranlslation than any modern attempt at a conservative translation. It is also just that, a translation by finite humans. There are always things lost in translation no matter what. B. Why has there been an increasing and unparalleled harvest of souls and quality Christian living among so much of the African and Chinese poulations over the last generation if the KJV has nothing to do with their faith since they don't speak or read English mostly?
 

Jordan

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Apr 6, 2007
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(bigape;51065)
But the philosophy behind "every other English translation", is that "words aren't important, but the ideas are;" This is why they feel free to change the words, any way they choose. (Like has be said for years, "If you change the words you change the meaning!")
It's not true that the majority of English translations change the words. It's only in contemporary translations. There are many modern translations that are literal in it's words and offer suggestions in the footnotes if there is a difference in some codexes.However you will never get the full meaning of the words in a translation, you will have to pursue Hebrew and Greek if you are looking for that.Only in contemporary translations? Give me a break here, there are many more than just contemporary translations that clearly attacks Christ. I'm not interested in bibles that uses Alexandrian Texts.
 

Gareth

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May 27, 2008
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(thesuperjag;51081)
Only in contemporary translations? Give me a break here, there are many more than just contemporary translations that clearly attacks Christ. I'm not interested in bibles that uses Alexandrian Texts.
Bibles, today use a vast variety of different texts. Including the Qumran codexes found for much of the Old Testament passages. That is why we can guarantee what is accurate, and what is in common between all the different codexes, and point out where there is differences.
 

RaddSpencer

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Mar 28, 2008
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(bigape;51065)
The answer to this question, boils down to "words". We may have "the right message" but are we using the right words to convey it? There is a doctrine, that all true believers accept, but many misunderstand it. That is, the doctrine of "verbal inspiration". We all agree on what "inspiration" means: (i.e. "God breathed") but what about that word, "verbal"? The word verbal, means "using words". God gave us our Bible, using "words", and not simply ideas. Therefore, the true power of God's message, lies in His Words, and not just in His message.
Brother, I couldn't disagree with you more!The church has been losing steam long before the internet ever came around. The main reason has to do with Christianity's negative public image. What it REALLY boils down to is love. Do you love God? AND do you love your neighbor as yourself or not? Matthew 22:36-40Unbelievers see Christians as being:1. Ignorant2. Judgmental3. Concerned over un-important things (like English translations of the Bible for instance).4. Overtly Hostile (especially to people who are practicing the sin of Homosexuality, whilst giving adulterers and fornicators a free pass).5. Hypocritical (in a Phariseeic way)6. STUCK IN THE PASTHere is an interesting article about the problem. It is from an unbelieving point of view (so I don't agree with all of it). But, brother, it hits quite a few nails on the head -- HARD.[url="http://www.alternet.org/module/printversion/64873/?type=blog]http://www.alternet.org/module/printversion/64873/?type=blog[/url]When Kinnaman asked senior pastors if they were seeing this too, half of them told him that, yes, they are finding their work to be an uphill battle -- "because people are increasingly hostile and negative toward Christianity." And his research bore this out. When he ranked young non-Christians' most common perceptions of Christianity, nine of the 12 most common attributes they named were negative ones. According to the study, "Common negative perceptions include that present-day Christianity is judgmental (87%), hypocritical (85%), old-fashioned (78%), and too involved in politics (75%)."And this wasn't just ignorance talking. The people interviewed had an average of five Christian friends. Eighty percent of them had spent at least six months attending church themselves in the past; and half of them had considered becoming Christian, but rejected it. Familiarity with the faith, it appears, has bred quite a bit of contempt: 'As we probed why young people had come to such conclusions, I was surprised how much their perceptions were rooted in specific stories and personal interactions with Christians and in churches. When they labeled Christians as judgmental this was not merely spiritual defensiveness. It was frequently the result of truly 'unChristian' experiences. We discovered that the descriptions that young people offered of Christianity were more thoughtful, nuanced, and experiential than expected.'
 

bigape

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May 22, 2008
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Hi Gareth Nice to hear from you. You said.......“It's not true that the majority of English translations change the words.”The intent of this post, was not meant to condemn all the other translations, as much as It was to lift up the KJV, as the Powerful translation, that it is.The issue is “power”: And the observation that I have made, when I look over the last 400 years of Church history, is that the Church has been losing power, since about 1881 or so, when Westcott and Hort, started this whole mess.Over the centuries, there were multiple English translations being made(Wycliffe, Gutenberg, Tyndale, etc.), but isn’t it interesting, that all this stopped, in 1611, when the first printing of the KJV, came out. I believe that it stopped, because God knew that with this Bible, English speaking people, had His Word, therefore He didn’t lay it upon anyone elses heart, to make another translation.I don’t believe what happened from 1875 to 1881, was of the LORD.-------------------------------------------------- As for those Christians, who truly want to dig into God’s Word(getting the Greek and Hebrew meanings), I believe that God laid it upon Strong, to write His concordance. Hope to hear from you again.-------------------------------------------------- -ALSO IN RESPONSE TO YOUR LATER POST:-You said..........“Bibles, today use a vast variety of different texts. Including the Qumran codexes(the Dead Sea Scrolls)....”This is precisely the problem; The Dead Sea Scrolls, should have never been found, because they were scrolls, that had errors, and were just thrown away, instead of destroyed.
 

bigape

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May 22, 2008
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Hi Winsome Nice to talk to you. As for when you said.......”I think you claim too much for the KJV.”I don’t think so. Because like millions and millions of others, I don’t know Greek or Hebrew, but God knows that I want to study and stand upon His Word. Therefore He gave me a Bible that I can trust.Please don’t misunderstand: When I say that God gave me this Bible, I am not saying that I believe in “double inspiration”. Because I don’t. But I do believe, that God providently protected the translators of the KJV, from using the “wrong” ancient manuscripts. As for, the real reason, the Church is failing it’s mission: Of course, it’s because, God’s people are living like the devil. But what I am saying, it that I believe that this is happening, because they have gotten away from God’s Word(even though they be reading their NIV’s). See you later
 

Wakka

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Jun 4, 2007
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We need more crusades. We need more people preaching the gospel and demonstrating the powers of the Holy Spirit. With more God-fearing Christians, we'll see more revivals. Most of the revivals happening today are in 3rd world countries, outside of the public's eyes.
 

bigape

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May 22, 2008
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Hi eliyahu After thinking about it, I guess, I am, “a KJV only person”(for English speaking people only).But I must call you to task, about your statement......“The KJV, is riddled with more “errors” in translation, than any other modern Bible.”-Please, I challenge you.......to show them to me.--------------------------------------------------- As for the great harvest in China, etc. Praise the LORD, He gave them a great Bible of their own, to study and to stand upon.
 

bigape

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May 22, 2008
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Hi thesuperjag I guess you and I, are on the same page.See you later.
 

bigape

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May 22, 2008
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Hi RaddSpencer I believe you misunderstood my post, when you said..........“The Church has been losing steam, long before the internet”In my post, I called things like the internet, Great. But in spite of all these great tools, we are still losing steam.See you later
 

Gareth

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May 27, 2008
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The intent of this post, was not meant to condemn all the other translations, as much as It was to lift up the KJV, as the Powerful translation, that it is.
I don't believe that the KJV is any more powerful than any modern translation. It's a beautiful translation if you like Shakespearean sounding texts but it's by no means elevated above the others.
 

Wakka

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Jun 4, 2007
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I don't believe that the KJV is any more powerful than any modern translation. It's a beautiful translation if you like Shakespearean sounding texts but it's by no means elevated above the others.
The modern texts have been perverted. They've lost meaning and some even have missing scripture. I hate copyright laws, because Bibles have to have some words changed in order for the publisher to be able to put their copyright on it.
 

Gareth

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May 27, 2008
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(Wakka;51341)
The modern texts have been perverted. They've lost meaning and some even have missing scripture. I hate copyright laws, because Bibles have to have some words changed in order for the publisher to be able to put their copyright on it.
Wakka, please show me what examples you can find, particularly the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV) if possible.
 

Jordan

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Apr 6, 2007
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The modern texts have been perverted. They've lost meaning and some even have missing scripture. I hate copyright laws, because Bibles have to have some words changed in order for the publisher to be able to put their copyright on it.
Wakka, please show me what examples you can find, particularly the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV) if possible.Read my topic (under my sig) for a change, with a open mind without preconceived ideas... Before I go an any further, no where in the topic where I will be saying that the KJV is the only bible that God uses...
 

Gareth

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May 27, 2008
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Interesting on the firstborn on Matthew 1:25. However in the footnotes of that page:"Other ancient authorities read her firstborn son"Indeed the same applies for Matthew 5:22"Gk: a brother; other ancient authorities add without cause"Do you not see a pattern?The reason this is is because this section is not found in most of the Greek codexes, it's mentioned at the end if people are looking for the alternative view. This is most likely because those sections were added in by a later scribe. It's rather clear that they do this in the interest of accuracy.
 

Letsgofishing

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Nov 27, 2007
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My view has always been that the best bible is the one you read I find that they all talk about Jesus's death , his resurection, our salvation, good works, the acts of the apostles, the events of the end times ect. and none of them really disagree on any of these. even though the message is a piece of trash
 

FoC

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Apr 11, 2008
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God's powerful message is,"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."and not,"For God had such love for the world that he gave his only Son, so that whoever has faith in him may not come to destruction but have eternal life."Note: When you change the words, you rob the message, of God's power!
Im sorry, but this is just nitpicking.Honestly, both of those verses say the same thing and, again honestly, its simply silly to get bent out of shape over the way the latter is worded.There are many ways in our english language to render a thought from any other tongue.How many ways is there to say 'You shall not steal' that you could come up with that would mean the exact same thing ?-Dont steal-Dont take what isn't yours-Dont take what belongs to someone else-take not that which is a brothers.etcetcetcetcetcIts simply a silly argument to say that because the sentence is rendered in a different manner that it doesnt say the same exact thing.And frankly, the words DO mean 'not be destroyed' in the Greek as far as being rendered into an English equivalent.
For1063 God2316 so3779 loved25 the3588 world,2889 that5620 he gave1325 his848 only begotten3439 Son,5207 that2443 whosoever3956 believeth4100 in1519 him846 should not3361 perish,622 but235 have2192 everlasting166 life.2222 (Joh 3:16 KJV+)G3361μήmēmayA primary particle of qualified negation (whereas G3756 expresses an absolute denial); (adverbially) not, (conjugationally) lest; also (as interrogitive implying a negative answer [whereas G3756 expects an affirmative one]); whether: - any, but, (that), X forbear, + God forbid, + lack, lest, neither, never, no (X wise in), none, nor, [can-] not, nothing, that not, un [-taken], without. Often used in compounds in substantially the same relations. See also G3362, G3363, G3364, G3372, G3373, G3375, G3378.G622ἀπόλλυμιapollumiap-ol'-loo-meeFrom G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.​
So obviously, if we wanted to nitpick here, it is the KJV version that isn't actually giving us the entirely accurate intent in OUR current language.We have much more important work to do other than condemn each other for what bible version we have chosen.
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