BAPTISM

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BreadOfLife

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As long as they are alive on the earth I don't have any problem with that.

But to pray to (ask them for something is the same thing as prayer) the dead is necromancy.

Deu 18:10, There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
Deu 18:11, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
Deu 18:12, For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

WRONG
.

Necromancy
is seeking oracles from the dead.
Nobody is trying to glean information from the saits who have died and are in Heaven. We are merely ASKING them to pray FOR us as fellow members of the Body of Christ. Who gave YOU the right to kick them out of the Body of Christ??

They have been made perfect and righteous in Christ. James 5:16 tells us the the prayers of a righteous person are very powerful. I thought Protestants believed that NOBODY on earth is righteous (Rom. 3:10) . . .
I agree, for in order for someone to obtain the promise of John 6:47, they must have a heart faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10); mental assent is not enough.

What I am saying is mere mental assent is the believing that is mentioned in Luke 8:13...for that faith did not endure to the end and therefore could not have laid hold of the promise that we have in John 6:47.
I don't think that either verse is talking about simple mental assent.
However - even if you believe that Rom. 8:13 is - John 6:47 is definitely NOT.
 

justbyfaith

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I don't think that either verse is talking about simple mental assent.
However - even if you believe that Rom. 8:13 is - John 6:47 is definitely NOT.

It's Luke 8:13...and I agree about John 6:47...that it is talking about an epignosis (which primarily refers to a heart faith) that procures everlasting life.

WRONG.

Necromancy
is seeking oracles from the dead.
Nobody is trying to glean information from the saints <fify> who have died and are in Heaven. We are merely ASKING them to pray FOR us as fellow members of the Body of Christ. Who gave YOU the right to kick them out of the Body of Christ??

They have been made perfect and righteous in Christ. James 5:16 tells us the the prayers of a righteous person are very powerful. I thought Protestants believed that NOBODY on earth is righteous (Rom. 3:10) . . .

Communication with the dead (whether from them or to them) is necromancy...and Catholics are guilty of it.

As for the latter thing, you should consider James 5:17-18. Righteous does not mean perfected in a glorified body (though those who have received such are indeed righteous). God can answer the prayers of the saints on earth...and if you feel that you are not righteous enough to have access to the Father...or that there is no one to pray with that is righteous enough...then Jesus is the one mediator that there is by which you can come to the Father, not on the basis of your own righteousness.
 
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BreadOfLife

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It's Luke 8:13...and I agree about John 6:47...that it is talking about an epignosis (which primarily refers to a heart faith) that procures everlasting life.

Communication with the dead (whether from them or to them) is necromancy...and Catholics are guilty of it.
You are DEAD WRONG.

Necromancy is the communication with the dead for the purpose of gleaning information. Do your homework.
Catholics are't trying to get information FROM those in Heaven. We are asking them to pray FOR us as fellow members of the Body of Christ.

Hebrews 12:1
says emphatically that "we are surrounded by so great a cloud of WITNESSES", speaking of those in Heaven.
What makes YOU think that they are NOT part of the Body if Christ??
As for the latter thing, you should consider James 5:17-18. Righteous does not mean perfected in a glorified body (though those who have received such are indeed righteous). God can answer the prayers of the saints on earth...and if you feel that you are not righteous enough to have access to the Father...or that there is no one to pray with that is righteous enough...then Jesus is the one mediator that there is by which you can come to the Father, not on the basis of your own righteousness.
First of all - I was giving you the PROTESTANT argument against Mary.
Rom. 3:10 is always quoted when stating that she wasn't righteous or sinless.

Finally - I never said that it was our OWN righteousness. I said that those in Heaven are MADE righteous and by Christ because Rev. 21:27 says that NOTHING imperfect or impure can enter Heaven.
 

BreadOfLife

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Nope. Nice play on words though.
Uhhhh, no - it's a fact . . .

nec·ro·man·cy
Dictionary result for necromancy
/ˈnekrəˌmansē/
noun
1. the supposed practice of communicating with the dead, especially in order to predict the future.

As I told you before - denial is NOT a valid argument . . .
 

justbyfaith

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Uhhhh, no - it's a fact . . .

nec·ro·man·cy
Dictionary result for necromancy
/ˈnekrəˌmansē/
noun
1. the supposed practice of communicating with the dead, especially in order to predict the future.

As I told you before - denial is NOT a valid argument . . .
Asking them to pray for you is communication, you cannot deny that.
 

BreadOfLife

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Asking them to pray for you is communication, you cannot deny that.
Do you have a reading problem??
Communicating with the dead "in order to gain information about the future" is the definition of necromancy.

Asking those in Heaven to pray for us is NOT necromancy.
NOT that difficult to differentiate . . .
 

justbyfaith

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Communicating with the dead "in order to gain information about the future" is the definition of necromancy.
Nope. It says "especially".

nec·ro·man·cy
Dictionary result for necromancy
/ˈnekrəˌmansē/
noun
1. the supposed practice of communicating with the dead, especially in order to predict the future.

That indicates that it is the practice of communicating with the dead; but not only in order to predict the future; just primarily to predict the future.

So doing it not to predict the future is included in the definition.
 
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BreadOfLife

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Nope. It says "especially".
And that's what I get for trying to reason with an ignorant anti-Catholic by using the first online dictionary I could find.
Here is the definition from a more trusted and respected source - Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary:

necromancy
noun
nec·ro·man·cy | \ ˈne-krə-ˌman(t)-sē \

Definition of necromancy
1: conjuration (see CONJURE sense 2a) of the spirits of the dead for purposes of magically revealing the future or influencing the course of events


From Wikipedia:
Necromancy (/ˈnɛkrəmænsi/)[1][2] is a practice of magic involving communication with the dead – either by summoning their spirit as an apparition or raising them bodily – for the purpose of divination, imparting the means to foretell future events or discover hidden knowledge, to bring someone back from the dead, or to use the dead as a weapon, as the term may sometimes be used in a more general sense to refer to black magic or witchcraft.


As for the word "Divination" that keeps popping up in the definition - it is defined as:
div·i·na·tion
Dictionary result for divination
/ˌdivəˈnāSH(ə)n/
noun
1. the practice of seeking knowledge of the future or the unknown by supernatural means.
"the Celtic art of divination"
synonyms: fortune telling, divining, foretelling the future, forecasting the future, prophecy, prediction, soothsaying, augury;

Fortune telling and soothsaying is PRECISELY what the prohibition is about in Deuteronomy, Einstein . . .
 

justbyfaith

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The first definition that you gave was valid...the fact that you departed from it and searched for another dictionary indicates that you have itching ears.
 

justbyfaith

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I'm really just giving you a hard time...

If your conscience allows you to ask the saints to pray for you and you want them to be your mediator between you and God instead of Jesus, more power to you...
 

marksman

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The word "Baptism" doesn't necessarily mean immersion - as I showed you.

The word "Adelphos" means "brother". Yet, it can be illustrated from the pages of Scripture that it ALSO means half-brother, step-brother, cousin, uncle, nephew, distant relation, fellow believer, etc.

The word baptism in the new testament means immersion. If you want to believe something else be my guest.
 

marksman

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I'm glad you asked.

I believe that baptism in water can be a point of contact (like the handkerchiefs that they took from Paul when he was working) for faith.

Now, obviously, there are scriptures that speak of salvation by faith, even apart from baptism. So I say that baptism is not necessary.

However, it is potent and capable, of accomplishing salvation in a man.

Acts of the Apostles 2:38-39 speaks of a conditional promise, given to as many as the Lord our God shall call.

The condition is repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth for the remission of sins;

The promise is the Holy Ghost.

Rom 8:30, Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

There is something about the faith of the operation of God in the followng:

Col 2:11, In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12, Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13, And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14, Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Of course, here the picture is immersion; however the point is that it is faith in baptism as a point of contact that makes us risen with Christ.

It is a promise of scripture (in Ezekiel 36:25-27) that He will give us a new heart and a new spirit, and will cause us to walk in His statutes and in His judgments, when He has sprinkled clean water on us. Therefore sprinkling is not invalid. Of course immersion is better; as it is the picture that is given in so many New Testament passages, as:

Rom 6:1, What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2, God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3, Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4, Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Walking in newness of life, therefore, is provided for through baptism in water. Is this not practical salvation?

Now answer my question.
 

BreadOfLife

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The word baptism in the new testament means immersion. If you want to believe something else be my guest.
No - the word "Baptism" isn't defined in the NT - and neither is "Adeplhos".
The Bible isn't a dictionary.

That's where the study of linguistics comes into play.
 

BreadOfLife

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I'm really just giving you a hard time...

If your conscience allows you to ask the saints to pray for you and you want them to be your mediator between you and God instead of Jesus, more power to you...
This is really an anti-Biblical statement.

- Was James "wrong" for telling his readers to prayerfully intercede for one another (James 5:16)?
- Do you think Paul was "wrong" for asking his readers for prayerful intercession (1 Tim. 2:1)?
- Was John "wrong" for telling his readers to pray for one another 1 John 5:16)?
- Have YOU ever asked anybody to pray for YOU?
- Has anybody ever asked YOU to pray for THEM? Did you reject their request as "wrong" in the eyes of God?

It is hypocritical of you to exclude certain members of the Body of Christ from interceding for one another simply because YOU don't approve of them.
 

justbyfaith

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This is really an anti-Biblical statement.

- Was James "wrong" for telling his readers to prayerfully intercede for one another (James 5:16)?
- Do you think Paul was "wrong" for asking his readers for prayerful intercession (1 Tim. 2:1)?
- Was John "wrong" for telling his readers to pray for one another 1 John 5:16)?
- Have YOU ever asked anybody to pray for YOU?
- Has anybody ever asked YOU to pray for THEM? Did you reject their request as "wrong" in the eyes of God?

It is hypocritical of you to exclude certain members of the Body of Christ from interceding for one another simply because YOU don't approve of them.
I approve of them...they are glorified in heaven.

However, communicating with the dead is necromancy, whether you like that idea or not.

It is no sin to get prayer support from saints who are living...but if you are going to seek mediation from anyone living in heaven, 1 Timothy 2:5 declares that the man Christ Jesus is the one mediator between God and men...and this excludes the saints and Mary.

Having people pray for you who are living on the earth is not mediation...they are in no way standing between you and God to mediate. Rather they are standing alongside of you to agree with you in prayer....and this is biblical. But if you are asking saints in heaven to agree with you in prayer, I don't think that you can honestly deny that that is communication with the dead.
 

justbyfaith

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What is the big deal about going to the Father through Jesus? After all, He did say,

Jhn 14:6, Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

And it is also written in the epistles:

Eph 2:18, For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Eph 3:11, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
Eph 3:12, In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

 

BreadOfLife

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I approve of them...they are glorified in heaven.

However, communicating with the dead is necromancy, whether you like that idea or not.

It is no sin to get prayer support from saints who are living...but if you are going to seek mediation from anyone living in heaven, 1 Timothy 2:5 declares that the man Christ Jesus is the one mediator between God and men...and this excludes the saints and Mary.

Having people pray for you who are living on the earth is not mediation...they are in no way standing between you and God to mediate. Rather they are standing alongside of you to agree with you in prayer....and this is biblical. But if you are asking saints in heaven to agree with you in prayer, I don't think that you can honestly deny that that is communication with the dead.
WRONG.
I've already proven - quite amply, I might add - that asking the saints to pray for us doe NOT fall under the definition of "Necromancy".
Only an ignorant or dishonest person would think that in light of the overwhelming evidence I've presented..

Sooooo - you believe that those in Heaven CAN'T pray for us because they instead stand BETWEEN us and God as "mediators"?? They CAN'T stand alongside us in prayer??

What
do you do with Rev. 5:8 which shows those Heaven "taking our prayers" before God??
How do you reconcile Rev. 8:5 which shows the Angels in Heaven doing the SAME THING??

Your position is UNBIBLICAL . . .
 
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