Was Adam, Eve and Creation "Perfect" or "Very Good"?

VictoryinJesus · Aug 3, 2019

Enoch111 said:
They lacked nothing whatsoever. They were also free from the sin nature. But they did have the free will to choose to either obey or disobey. That is why they were given a COMMANDMENT. All they had to do was obey it. It was not a grievous commandment since Eden had every kind of delicious and nutritious fruit, vegetable, and herb. It was an amazing orchard/garden.

BTW, when God says something is VERY GOOD, it is indeed perfect. Since God's standard is perfection. There were no flaws in creation, and even today -- even after the Fall -- we see God's mathematical precision in the minutest details of His creation. Fractals are an excellent example of how perfectly God created.

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Was going to mention Hebrews 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did ; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

And 2 Corinthians 3:10-11
[10] For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. [11] For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

“Very good” or “Perfect”? So don’t know but it is a good topic to consider @Nancy.

Collin Feener · Aug 3, 2019

It says God created man in his image and then it says man is now as we are knowing good and evil with their eyes open. For man to be perfect after his fall, he has to over come the fall and get to the tree of life and be recreated in God's image, born again.

Grailhunter · Aug 3, 2019

I find it interesting that the world started out with one secret.
Adam and Eve had one rule to follow.
And there was only one commandment.

VictoryinJesus · Aug 3, 2019

Collin Feener said:
It says God created man in his image and then it says man is now as we are knowing good and evil with their eyes open. For man to be perfect after his fall, he has to over come the fall and get to the tree of life and be recreated in God's image, born again.

“God created man in His image”

1 Corinthians 15:45-49 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. [46] Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. [47] The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. [48] As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. [49] And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Did Adam bear the image of Heavenly first and then the earthly? His word says the First man was of the earth. The second of Heaven. Was Adam of Heaven first and then earth? Was Adam spirit first and then the natural? Created in God’s image?

Enoch111 · Aug 3, 2019

VictoryinJesus said:
Was Adam spirit first and then the natural?

When God created Adam, there was no conflict between natural and spiritual. The natural was spiritual also, otherwise how else could God walk in the Garden and have fellowship with His creatures? It is very possible that since Adam was created a little lower than the angels, he (and Eve) may have been clothed in light. Natural vs spiritual is only AFTER the Fall.

VictoryinJesus · Aug 3, 2019

Enoch111 said:
When God created Adam, there was no conflict between natural and spiritual. The natural was spiritual also, otherwise how else could God walk in the Garden and have fellowship with His creatures? It is very possible that since Adam was created a little lower than the angels, he (and Eve) may have been clothed in light. Natural vs spiritual is only AFTER the Fall.

Romans 7:14
[14] For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Carnal and natural are not the same? Hebrews 7:16-17 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. [17] For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Giuliano · Aug 4, 2019

Nancy said:
I do not see where God created the world "perfect". I do believe Adam and Eve were perfectly made "in His image", probably heartier and stronger, bigger maybe? But if they were created as "perfect beings" then, they would not have sinned. I can see God, giving them free will, with the ability TO sin. And, of course, God knew they would sin. He want's His children to choose to Love Him. It could also be that the Glory of God's love and grace could not be realized unless Adam and Eve did sin. Or, maybe it is a combination?

I do not know that God knows everything. I'm not smart enough to know that, and I've no way of testing it. However the Bible says God knows the beginning and the end of things. I accept that.

No, "the man" was not created perfect. If we read Genesis carefully, it stands out that God did not comment on the man, did not pronounce him good as He did on five other days. (The division of waters was also not pronounced good.)

If Adam had been created perfect, he would not have been able to choose properly. God gives us free will so we can choose good and become more like Him, and so He can reward us.

I think it also has something to do with love. (Doesn't everything in the Bible?) Adam and Eve were supposed to learn how to love each other and also to care about their offspring.

We cannot say the God's love can't be realized unless we sin. That would mean God wanted mankind to suffer just so He could rescue him later. I can't believe a loving God could do that. "To obey is better than sacrifice."

Notice that while God does not pronounce the man as "good", the whole is pronounced as "very good." It was. God had provided everything the man and woman needed to make right decisions and come to perfection.

Enoch111 · Aug 4, 2019

Giuliano said:
No, "the man" was not created perfect. If we read Genesis carefully, it stands out that God did not comment on the man, did not pronounce him good as He did on five other days. (The division of waters was also not pronounced good.)

You are clearly mistaken. After the creation of man, this is what we read:

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth... And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. (Gen1: 26-28; 31)

There was no need to repeat this in the next chapter, which gives us the details concerning the creation of man.

Giuliano · Aug 4, 2019

Before telling me that I am clearly mistaken, why not read Genesis and what I wrote more carefully? Here are the passages where God calls things good. He does not say the man was good after making him.

Genesis 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

Genesis 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

stunnedbygrace · Aug 4, 2019

amadeus said:
Of course, I have slept since I wrote that but the reason I underlined it may have been to connect it the definitions I added below. That's usually how my mind works now. I am not so certain about a couple of months ago. I notice that I also included a Strong's translation of the word, "perfect" relating to the OP to help @Nancy understand as much any of us can.

A bit more here on Adam and Eve: They were sinless creatures before they disobeyed God, yet they were apparently subject to death. Once they were dead to God, He took action to prevent them from partaking of that other tree in the garden:

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life." Gen 3:22-24

Possibly if they had not disobeyed God they would have lived a very long time... but the mention of keeping them from the other tree makes it seem as if their time was still limited. God put a stop to the possibility of having an unlimited amount of time to dwell in death. Isn't this the "death more abundantly" of which you have spoken? For surely when they ate of the forbidden tree of "the knowledge of good and evil" they were in the day of their death? To eat of the Tree of Life would have extended their death that looked to them, and probably now to any carnal man, like life... but it was not, was it?

Prior to their disobedience they were along with all of God's creation called "very good" rather than "perfect". They were sinless, but not perfect, but with the words of Jesus would we not presume that perfection is a possibility?

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matt 5:48

Jesus would not have directed people toward an impossibility. Before they disobeyed, perhaps by eating of the Tree of Life, Adam and Eve would have moved beyond "very good" to "perfect". Now the Way is open for men to do what Adam and Eve failed to do: attain perfection. According this what would have to do is become first "very good" and then partake of the Tree of Life. Is the "very good" simply without sin as Adam and Eve were in the beginning? Then look to this verse:

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Rev 2:7

So then once we presumable have become "very good" by meeting Jesus and losing all of our sins, we then by the Word of God and the Holy Spirit overcome those things which stand between us and God:

"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." I John 2:16

Nothing to it! Right?

Interesting...I'm not sure though that God created Adam and eve subject to death. If they were subject to death at their creation, before they sinned, then how is it sin that brought death into the world?

I think maybe...it has to do with their covering.

Giuliano · Aug 4, 2019

Grailhunter said:
I find it interesting that the world started out with one secret.
Adam and Eve had one rule to follow.
And there was only one commandment.

I can think of more than one commandment they were given. You probably can too if you try.

Grailhunter · Aug 4, 2019

Giuliano said:
I can think of more than one commandment they were given. You probably can too if you try.

Some discussions are more enjoyable than others...I am listening/watching...go for it.

Nancy · Aug 4, 2019

Grailhunter said:
Some discussions are more enjoyable than others...I am listening/watching...go for it.

Hm, maybe Giuliano means the other things God told them TO do....till the ground, have kids, keep dominion over all the creatures. Then the biggie do NOT....eat of the tree. So, it seems that God only warned them against one thing. Yes, I would say these other things were commandments too but, if they failed to do the other things, I wonder if that would have been as bad as what they did. I don't think so, I could see God chastising them if they did not take care of His beautiful creation but, not banning them from the garden and all of the things that came with that sin of sins. JMHO

Grailhunter · Aug 4, 2019

Nancy said:
Hm, maybe Giuliano means the other things God told them TO do....till the ground, have kids, keep dominion over all the creatures. Then the biggie do NOT....eat of the tree. So, it seems that God only warned them against one thing. Yes, I would say these other things were commandments too but, if they failed to do the other things, I wonder if that would have been as bad as what they did. I don't think so, I could see God chastising them if they did not take care of His beautiful creation but, not banning them from the garden and all of the things that came with that sin of sins. JMHO

I figured that was kinda what he was getting at. Commandment can be a loose term. What I see as a commandment is a directive to do or not to do something, that will outlive the person that first heard it. In this case "Be fruitful and multiply" It is about the only commandment that God repeats through the Torah, and is a repeated promise to those He connects with saying their descendants would be like the sand at the shores or the stars in heaven...dust of the earth etc.

bbyrd009 · Aug 4, 2019

Nancy said:
Well, it is the Tree of the knowledge of good and EVIL, yes? Maybe I should have said that evil and sin had been UN-leashed on us? We still have to fight that parasite called sin inside us, don't you think?

well no, but i do realize it's a popular belief. That battle is over though, guess we just need to stop eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge

bbyrd009 · Aug 4, 2019

Nancy said:
Well, it is the Tree of the knowledge of good and EVIL, yes? Maybe I should have said that evil and sin had been UN-leashed on us? We still have to fight that parasite called sin inside us, don't you think?

bc after all "fighting" sin = "forest fire suppression" and "vaccinations," yeh?

Giuliano · Aug 4, 2019

Nancy said:
Hm, maybe Giuliano means the other things God told them TO do....till the ground, have kids, keep dominion over all the creatures. Then the biggie do NOT....eat of the tree. So, it seems that God only warned them against one thing. Yes, I would say these other things were commandments too but, if they failed to do the other things, I wonder if that would have been as bad as what they did. I don't think so, I could see God chastising them if they did not take care of His beautiful creation but, not banning them from the garden and all of the things that came with that sin of sins. JMHO

Yes, I believe they were to look at the Garden and then decide how to keep things running harmoniously. Tilling the ground? I don't know about that. I have the impression that plants would obey them without tilling the ground. Adam is told after the fall that he will have to work at things and sweat at it. We are informed then in Genesis 3:23 that Adam tilled the land from which he had been taken.

amadeus · Aug 4, 2019

stunnedbygrace said:
Interesting...I'm not sure though that God created Adam and eve subject to death. If they were subject to death at their creation, before they sinned, then how is it sin that brought death into the world?

I think maybe...it has to do with their covering.

When I said subject to death, I am still unsure of my meaning. I did not mean that death ruled over them or that they were in death for they certainly were not. God, however, did give them an unusual ability, the ability to disobey and walk away from Him. [This to me is what men want to call "free will".] He warned them simply not to do that, but as we know, they disobeyed and they died. Whether they would have eventually died physically if they had not disobeyed remains a question in my mind. Of course, if they had not disobeyed eventually it seems they would have eaten of the Tree of Life and then that according to what God said would have secured seemingly an unending life/Life.

All of Adam and Eve's children were born dead [spiritually] in the eyes of God because their parents were dead. What man calls life and death is not equal to what God calls Life and death.

stunnedbygrace · Aug 4, 2019

amadeus said:
When I said subject to death, I am still unsure of my meaning.

You made me laugh very hard with this!

Yes, I understand your post. And when I talk in here, a lot of the time I am working it out as I go too, with a little help from my friends. That's why I laughed so hard I guess.

amadeus · Aug 4, 2019

stunnedbygrace said:
You made me laugh very hard with this!

Yes, I understand your post. And when I talk in here, a lot of the time I am working it out as I go too, with a little help from my friends. That's why I laughed so hard I guess.

I do understand why it made you laugh. Sometimes our ignorance before God is quite laughable. We need to be able to laugh at ourselves.

Was Adam, Eve and Creation "Perfect" or "Very Good"?

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