Justifiable Reasons to be Skeptical of The Resurrection Claims

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Several New Testament books were excluded from this analysis because they were not relevant to the topic, their authenticity has been contested by a consensus of Biblical scholars, or have been demonstrated to be duplicative in that they are later versions of the same content borrowed directly from an earlier source which has already been included here.

Despite their commonalities, there are significant incongruities between the two letter (Luke-Acts) written for Theophilus and the authentic Pauline letters. Paul’s character, his theology, and various events from his life are described differently in the letters to Theophilus than they are from his own autobiographical accounts. They also depart from each other on important issues such as the Law, Paul’s own apostleship, and his association with the Jerusalem church. Meanwhile, Paul warned his followers to beware of false doctrines being spread by men masquerading as apostles of Christ.

Is the existence of these facts best explained by the claim that the anonymous author of the letters to Theophilus traveled with Paul for decades on his missionary journeys? No. If the anonymous author of the letters to Theophilus spent decades working closely with Paul who was extremely annoyed by the propagation of false doctrines, we would expect his description of Paul’s character, theology, and travels to be reasonably harmonious with Paul’s own autobiographical content. Does this fact disprove the claim that the anonymous author of the two letters to Theophilus was Paul’s companion? No, but it provides a good reason to remain skeptical of the claim and to question the reliability of the information contained within these two letters to Theopilus.

The authentic Pauline letters are the earliest sources for the resurrection claim and predate all subsequent New Testament accounts by several decades. Paul does not describe what happened to the body of Jesus after he was killed except to indicate it was buried. Rabbinic law specifies that criminals were to be buried in a common grave, not a tomb. If the body of a criminal was initially placed in a tomb to comply with the Jewish preparations for Passover, it would have only been a temporary arrangement until the body could be reburied in a common grave as required by Rabbinic Law.

Paul uses the Greek word, ὤφθη, to describe Jesus as “appearing” to him and the other apostles. According to the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, when "ὤφθη" is used in this type of context, it refers to a divine revelation where someone experiences a spiritual presence of Jesus without actually observing his natural body made of flesh and bone. The 1st century Jewish concept of a spiritual body was that it was a physical body but more refined than the bulky flesh and bone natural body.

This collection of facts demonstrates that the earliest account of the burial and resurrection of Jesus as describe by Paul does not indicate anything about a missing body, an empty tomb, or post-resurrection appearances by Jesus in the form of a body made of flesh and bone. The existence of these facts requires an explanation. Does the claim that Paul believed the flesh and blood body of Jesus went missing from a tomb as a consequence of being resurrected best explain these facts? No. If it is assumed that Paul believed the body of Jesus was buried, his statement that Jesus was buried is neutral with respect to whether it was buried in a common grave or a tomb. If the body of Jesus was placed in a tomb to comply with the preparatory requirements for Passover, the given facts suggest it is reasonable to assume the body would have been quickly reburied in a common grave immediately following the observance of Passover. In any case, since Paul makes no mention of Jesus dying on or around Passover or anyone subsequently discovering an empty tomb, it would be presumptuous to infer that he believed the body of Jesus was placed in a tomb rather than buried in a common grave. This doesn't disprove the claim that the body of Jesus was placed in a tomb but gives good reason to remain skeptical of it.

Furthermore, these facts demonstrate that Paul’s concept of a bodily resurrection only involved the raising-up of the refined spiritual body to heaven, not the bulky natural body made of flesh and bones. Therefore, given these facts, Paul most likely believed it was the resurrected spiritual body of Jesus that appeared to him and the other apostles rather than the natural body of Jesus which had been buried. This best explains the existence of the false apostles mentioned by Paul who were able to successfully convince many early Christians to believe their false doctrines. It is unlikely these false apostles were being deliberately deceptive and probably had what they perceived to be their own revelatory experiences with the resurrected spiritual body of Christ who guided them towards doctrines which conflicted with those endorsed by Paul.

These facts also best explain why there is no mention of Paul or anyone else going to the site where Jesus was buried (if the location was even known) to verify the remains of the body were missing or still there. Obviously, Paul and the other apostles would have no motivation to dig up the natural flesh and bone remains of Jesus if they believed it was his refined spiritual body that was resurrected. Does this disprove the claim that the natural flesh and bone body of Jesus went missing from a tomb? No. However, it does provide a good reason to be skeptical of the claim's validity.

Dehydration, heat exhaustion, heat stroke, physical exhaustion, led poisoning, malnutrition, sleep deprivation, and other medical conditions are known to trigger auditory and visual hallucinations in otherwise psychologically healthy people. There are altered psychological states which can be brought about through intense and lengthy meditation or prayer sessions where practitioners, who are otherwise psychologically healthy people, regularly experience auditory and visual hallucinations. Descriptions of these personal experiences often becomes more and more embellished the more they are recounted from memory.

When appropriately primed and motivated by a prescribed religious expectation, subliminal message, or an emotional crisis brought about through a shared traumatic event, it is common for a group of like-minded and psychologically healthy people to experience a kind of hypnotic and highly suggestive trance state while engaged in lengthy and intense meditation or prayer sessions. There also exists a form of psychological manipulation where group pressure to achieve a desired personal experience commonly influences participants to exaggerate or fabricate their individual experiences in order to conform with the group's expectations.

These facts provide reasonable and natural explanations for how Paul, the other apostles, the "five hundred", and the false apostles could have individually and collectively come to believe that they had experienced the presence of Christ's resurrected spiritual body. Since Paul describes the appearance of the resurrected Jesus to him in nebulous revelatory terms, it is reasonable to presume that the other appearances by Jesus would not necessarily have to be identical experiences. Therefore, a group of grieving people engaged in an intense and lengthy prayer session could come to believe they all experienced the spiritual presence of the resurrected Jesus at the same time without the need for each revelatory experience to be identical. Do these facts disprove the claim these people actually experienced the presence of Christ's resurrected spiritual body? No. However, they do give good reasons to be skeptical of the claim.

The book of Mark, being the earliest of the gospel accounts, does not identify the author and was a primary source of information for the books of Matthew and Luke. The earliest and best manuscripts of Mark conclude the resurrection account immediately after the women ran away scared from the empty tomb and never said anything to anyone. It is a historical fact that women were forbidden to serve as legal witnesses during the 1st century except in extenuating circumstances.

On the face of it, the argument suggesting that a fictional account of the resurrection would not likely credit women as having been the first to discover the empty tomb seems reasonable. However, we must remember that the earliest and best manuscripts of Mark ended immediately after the women ran away scared from the empty tomb and never said anything to anyone. Since the anonymous author of Mark was writing his version of the account decades after the resurrection of Jesus is supposed to have occurred, the abrupt ending of his story featuring the frightened women could be justifiably interpreted as an attempt to fabricate a plausible excuse for why no one had previously heard anything about an empty tomb. When challenged about this, Mark could have claimed the truth about the empty tomb was previously unknown because the women never told anyone about it until the detail was divinely revealed to him by Jesus. Furthermore, even if someone were to insist that the women would have eventually informed someone of their experience at the tomb if it were true, the author of Mark could have simply claimed the story was most likely dismissed being the source was a group of women rather than the legal testimony of a man or group of men.

Once again, none of this speculation about the facts demonstrates the resurrection claim is false but does provide a reasonable justification for remaining skeptical. If anyone can demonstrate where any of this information is false, I welcome and invite your constructive criticism.
 

Berserk

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BlueGreenEarth: "Several New Testament books were excluded from this analysis because they were not relevant to the topic, their authenticity has been contested by a consensus of Biblical scholars, or have been demonstrated to be duplicative in that they are later versions of the same content borrowed directly from an earlier source which has already been included here."

Mindless generalizations from someone who is academically incompetent to make such claims.

BGE: "Despite their commonalities, there are significant incongruities between the two letter (Luke-Acts) written for Theophilus and the authentic Pauline letters."

Luke and Acts are NOT letters or epistles. That colossal ignorance in itself demands that your other vague claims be defended with specific examples to establish that you are at least remotely competent to defend your claims and their relevance to Jesus' resurrection.

BGE: "Is the existence of these facts best explained by the claim that the anonymous author of the letters to Theophilus traveled with Paul for decades on his missionary journeys?"

You are not even competent to lay out either (1) the argument in favor of Lucan authorship of the Gospel of Luke and the Book of Acts or (2) the nature and credibility of Luke's sources. Nor do you have evidence on the basis of Acts 16:11ff., chaps. 20-21, and chaps. 27-28 that Luke was regularly Paul's missionary companion for decades. In short, you don't know enough to engage in this debate.

BGE: "The authentic Pauline letters are the earliest sources for the resurrection claim and predate all subsequent New Testament accounts by several decades."

No, the scholarly consensus dates Mark around 64-70 AD and most of Paul's epistles are written in the 50s and early 60s AD. That is hardly a gap of "several decades."

BGE: "Paul does not describe what happened to the body of Jesus after he was killed except to indicate it was buried. Rabbinic law specifies that criminals were to be buried in a common grave, not a tomb. If the body of a criminal was initially placed in a tomb to comply with the Jewish preparations for Passover, it would have only been a temporary arrangement until the body could be reburied in a common grave as required by Rabbinic Law."

You are apparently unaware that Jesus' crucifixion fell under Roman jurisdiction and of the intervening role played by Joseph of Arimathea, a Sanhedrin member, in gaining permission from Pilate to provide the tomb for Jesus' burial. Joseph was "a disciple of Jesus, though a secret one(John 19:38)."
You are also apparently unaware that both Jesus' crucifixion and burial took place at the same rock quarry garden, so that Jesus' tomb and his place of crucifixion were just yards apart (John 19:41-42). The women who maintained the death vigil at the cross saw where Jesus was buried nearby.

BGE: "Paul uses the Greek word, ὤφθη, to describe Jesus as “appearing” to him and the other apostles. According to the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, when "ὤφθη" is used in this type of context, it refers to a divine revelation where someone experiences a spiritual presence of Jesus without actually observing his natural body made of flesh and bone."

The resurrection accounts depict Jesus' as capable of moving through walls, hardly something a physical body could do. Paul defends his apostleship on the grounds that he has seen the risen Jesus with his own eyes: "Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen the Lord (1 Corinthians 9:1)?" You are apparently oblivious of how Paul's list of resurrection appearances (1 Cirinthians 15:3-8) was verified by Jesus' followers during Paul's 2 trips to Jerusalem to have his version of the Gospel accounts checked out and approved by Jesus' eyewitnesses (Galatians 1:28-19; 2:1-10).

BGE: "The 1st century Jewish concept of a spiritual body was that it was a physical body but more refined than the bulky flesh and bone natural body."

A simple-minded generalization! You are obviously illiterate in the copious intertestamental Jewish literature, and so, are oblivious to the diversity of Jewish perspectives on this subject.


This collection of facts demonstrates that the earliest account of the burial and resurrection of Jesus as describe by Paul does not indicate anything about a missing body, an empty tomb, or post-resurrection appearances by Jesus in the form of a body made of flesh and bone. The existence of these facts requires an explanation. Does the claim that Paul believed the flesh and blood body of Jesus went missing from a tomb as a consequence of being resurrected best explain these facts? No. If it is assumed that Paul believed the body of Jesus was buried, his statement that Jesus was buried is neutral with respect to whether it was buried in a common grave or a tomb. If the body of Jesus was placed in a tomb to comply with the preparatory requirements for Passover, the given facts suggest it is reasonable to assume the body would have been quickly reburied in a common grave immediately following the observance of Passover. In any case, since Paul makes no mention of Jesus dying on or around Passover or anyone subsequently discovering an empty tomb, it would be presumptuous to infer that he believed the body of Jesus was placed in a tomb rather than buried in a common grave. This doesn't disprove the claim that the body of Jesus was placed in a tomb but gives good reason to remain skeptical of it.

BGE: "This best explains the existence of the false apostles mentioned by Paul who were able to successfully convince many early Christians to believe their false doctrines. It is unlikely these false apostles were being deliberately deceptive and probably had what they perceived to be their own revelatory experiences with the resurrected spiritual body of Christ who guided them towards doctrines which conflicted with those endorsed by Paul."

What is your evidence for the doctrine of these "false apostles" about Jesus' resurrection body? You have none!

BGE: These facts also best explain why there is no mention of Paul or anyone else going to the site where Jesus was buried (if the location was even known) to verify the remains of the body were missing or still there."

More pontifications based on breath-taking ignorance!
"Some of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said (Luke 24:24)."
"Then Peter and the other (male) disciple set out toward the tomb (John 20:3)."

BGE: When appropriately primed and motivated by a prescribed religious expectation, subliminal message, or an emotional crisis brought about through a shared traumatic event, it is common for a group of like-minded and psychologically healthy people to experience a kind of hypnotic and highly suggestive trance state while engaged in lengthy and intense meditation or prayer sessions. There also exists a form of psychological manipulation where group pressure to achieve a desired personal experience commonly influences participants to exaggerate or fabricate their individual experiences in order to conform with the group's expectations."
This contrived rubbish employs the same closed minded logic you used to duck my challenge to watch the 2 posted videos on shared death experiences, which decisively refute your repudiation of NDEs and create an instructive parallel to Jesus' resurrection appearances.



BGE: "The book of Mark, being the earliest of the gospel accounts, does not identify the author and was a primary source of information for the books of Matthew and Luke."

First, you are apparently oblivious of the various pieces of evidence for the apostle Peter as Mark's source for his Gospel.
Second, you are apparently ignorant of the other sources used by Matthew and Luke.

BGE: "The earliest and best manuscripts of Mark conclude the resurrection account immediately after the women ran away scared from the empty tomb and never said anything to anyone."

Do you actually believe that the women would still keep silent even after Peter reports his resurrection appearance on the same day the women discover the empty tomb? Their silence is clearly temporary.

BGE: "It is a historical fact that women were forbidden to serve as legal witnesses during the 1st century except in extenuating circumstances."

And it is precisely for this reason that the early church is unlikely to have invented the role of female disciples in being the first to discover the empty tomb and the first to see the resurrected Jesus!
 

Enoch111

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Several New Testament books were excluded from this analysis because they were not relevant to the topic, their authenticity has been contested by a consensus of Biblical scholars, or have been demonstrated to be duplicative in that they are later versions of the same content borrowed directly from an earlier source which has already been included here.
Why don't you take your skeptical nonsense where it will be appreciated by skeptics and/or atheists. What you are trying to do here is sow seeds of doubt and spiritual confusion. Hence I would deem you a messenger of Satan. So GET THEE BEHIND ME SATAN!
 
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shnarkle

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If anyone can demonstrate where any of this information is false, I welcome and invite your constructive criticism.

if we agree to your assumptions, then this is a fairly straightforward treatise supporting a skeptical approach to these claims. However, if we were to look at the teachings of Christ, and Paul as well as those texts attributed to Paul or churches holding doctrines in line with Paul's teachings, then I think it becomes clear that the subsequent gospel narratives are an illustration of these very same teachings. Christ and Paul both teach self denial/self sacrifice, and an empty tomb is a quite apt illustration of that teaching. To abandon one's self image or self identity is literally as horrific as being crucified. This is not to say that the crucifixion never happened, but that even if it didn't, it's a perfect illustration of the teaching.

Additionally, I have encountered a number of people who claim that Paul's doctrine contradicted the gospel accounts, and I don't find these convincing. In some cases, I can see that this conclusion is based upon some aspects of the Mosaic law that people are not paying attention to so they come to false conclusions. The most noteworthy is Paul's statements concerning the law that was done away verses what remains. This causes a lot of confusion in Christians, and leads those who are not familiar with the texts to assume those same false assumptions.
 

Windmillcharge

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none of this speculation about the facts demonstrates the resurrection claim is false but does provide a reasonable justification for remaining skeptical. If anyone can demonstrate where any of this information is false, I welcome and invite your constructive criticism.

All answered many times over by coldcasechristianity, even answersingenesis, william lane craig or Dr Garry Habermas.
Chech out Sir William Ramsay and his conclusions on the accuracy of Luke. He called him a historian of the first order, always accurate.

There are no justifable reasons to be skeptical, not if one is being honest.
 
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Duane Clinton Meehan

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The radically beautifully constructed metered mode of sentence structure whereby the author of the resurrection claims essay articulates his several proposals, exhibits his rationally superior sapientality as infinitely abundantly rich and godlike, while the backward ignorant and intolerant Enoch111, via a stupid bigoted evil hatefulness, exhibits naught but pure imbecility and failure to fathom and practice simple Christian charity, which imbecility/failure constitutes precisely an entirely satanistic excursion into repugnant mal-conduct.
Duane
 
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shnarkle

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All answered many times over by coldcasechristianity, even answersingenesis, william lane craig or Dr Garry Habermas.
Chech out Sir William Ramsay and his conclusions on the accuracy of Luke. He called him a historian of the first order, always accurate.

There are no justifable reasons to be skeptical, not if one is being honest.
The latest scholarship seems to cast significant doubt upon the notion that any of the gospel narratives are historically accurate, and by latest, I mean within the last 100 years.

Jewish scholars in particular have noted that the sequence of events follow the Jewish calendar perfectly. Mark's gospel follows the entire first half of the Jewish calendar while Matthew and Luke's gospels follow the entire liturgical year. John's gospel provides a three year cycle which coincidently continues to be followed in the Catholic church as well as her most loyal daughter's liturgies.

The events in these narratives fit the Jewish liturgical calendar like a hand into a glove. This isn't to say that Jesus didn't live, or even that he wasn't crucified, but to point out that the truth of the gospel isn't based upon history, but the truth of the gospel itself.

The truth is that freedom from bondage to sin begins with self denial. God's salvation is manifest in self sacrifice, and is personified in Christ Jesus.
 

Windmillcharge

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The latest scholarship seems to cast significant doubt upon the notion that any of the gospel narratives are historically accurate, and by latest, I mean within the last 100 years.

I'm no scholar, but I can demonstrate that the NT was written by AD70.
Jerusalem destroyed by the Romans in AD 70.
Jesus predicted the distruction of Jeruslem.
Why isn't this 'proof' of his prophetic powers mentioned in the NT, unless the NT was written prior to AD70.
 

shnarkle

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I'm no scholar, but I can demonstrate that the NT was written by AD70.
Jerusalem destroyed by the Romans in AD 70.
Jesus predicted the distruction of Jeruslem.
Why isn't this 'proof' of his prophetic powers mentioned in the NT, unless the NT was written prior to AD70.
The vast majority of scholarship today disagrees. Mark's gospel as well as many of the epistles were written prior to 70 AD, but Matthew, and Luke were written afterwards while John's gospel was written significantly later.

The descriptions in the gospel narratives fit with what was going on at or beyond 70 AD. They are describing what was going on in the early church, not what was going on around 30 AD. They were part of the early church's liturgy which was a very Jewish phenomenon. You can find the same thing going on with the Old Testament prophets as well. This is why much of what they say is believed to be referring to the end times rather than descriptions of what supposedly happened after they wrote it. They are all writing after the fact. You see this with Jesus' predictions as well, and it is one of the reasons why the descriptions of the sack of Jerusalem are mixed in with an apocalyptic end times destruction as well.

I know this probably comes as a shock to many. It certainly came as a shock to me, but after spending a few years studying it, I could see that it makes perfect sense. The amount of scholarship on the subject is extensive and has been around for over 100 years. It's even being taught in a number of seminaries now. People think that the comparisons between Jesus and Moses, Elijah, etc. are our insights into the texts when they were intentionally placed into the texts by the authors themselves.
 

Windmillcharge

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The vast majority of scholarship today disagrees. Mark's gospel as well as many of the epistles were written prior to 70 AD, but Matthew, and Luke were written afterwards while John's gospel was written significantly later.

The descriptions in the gospel narratives fit with what was going on at or beyond 70 AD. They are describing what was going on in the early church, not what was going on around 30 AD. They were part of the early church's liturgy which was a very Jewish phenomenon. You can find the same thing going on with the Old Testament prophets as well. This is why much of what they say is believed to be referring to the end times rather than descriptions of what supposedly happened after they wrote it. They are all writing after the fact. You see this with Jesus' predictions as well, and it is one of the reasons why the descriptions of the sack of Jerusalem are mixed in with an apocalyptic end times destruction as well.

I know this probably comes as a shock to many. It certainly came as a shock to me, but after spending a few years studying it, I could see that it makes perfect sense. The amount of scholarship on the subject is extensive and has been around for over 100 years. It's even being taught in a number of seminaries now. People think that the comparisons between Jesus and Moses, Elijah, etc. are our insights into the texts when they were intentionally placed into the texts by the authors themselves.

You pays your money and takes your choice as to who one believes.
Both sides have a bias towards there view, so which is more reliable.

William lain Craig put it this way:-
Since it is generally agreed that Mark was one of the sources used by Matthew and Luke, it follows that if Mark was written around AD 70, then the other Gospels must have been written later. So the usual dating of the Gospels depends crucially on Mark’s date.
By contrast, if we begin with Luke and Matthew and work backwards, then the date of Mark is pushed back well before AD 70. The evidence that Acts was written prior to AD 70 (e.g., Paul’s being still alive under house arrest in Rome, no mention of significant events during the AD 60s such as the martyrdom of James, the persecution of Nero, the siege of Jerusalem, etc., and the disproportionate emphasis on Paul’s recent voyage to Rome) strikes me as very persuasive. Since Acts is the sequel to Luke’s Gospel, Luke must have been written in the AD 50s, and accordingly, Mark even earlier. Such a dating makes eminently good sense. It is incredible that the early church would have waited for decades before committing the Jesus story on which it was founded to writing.
So why do scholars find the evidence for a later date of Mark so compelling? The answer seems to be that Jesus in his Olivet Discourse describes the destruction of Jerusalem by her enemies, and so Mark’s narrative must date from the time of this event. But this argument cannot bear the weight placed on it. For the distinctive features of the Roman siege of Jerusalem as described by Josephus are conspicuously absent from Jesus’ descriptions of Jerusalem’s predicted destruction. His predictions resemble more closely the Old Testament descriptions of the destruction of Jerusalem in 586 BC by the Babylonian army than descriptions of the Roman destruction in AD 70. Again, this makes such good sense. As a prophet Jesus would naturally draw upon the Old Testament for his predicted judgement upon Jerusalem.Dating the Gospels | Reasonable Faith
 

shnarkle

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You pays your money and takes your choice as to who one believes.

Speak for yourself. Jesus asks for a coin because he doesn't have any money. Who hands him one? A Pharisee. Coincidence?

William lain Craig put it this way:-
Since it is generally agreed that Mark was one of the sources used by Matthew and Luke, it follows that if Mark was written around AD 70,

No. It follows that Mark was written before Matthew and Luke.

if we begin with Luke and Matthew and work backwards, then the date of Mark is pushed back well before AD 70.

Again, this doesn't necessarily follow.

The evidence that Acts was written prior to AD 70 (e.g., Paul’s being still alive under house arrest in Rome, no mention of significant events during the AD 60s such as the martyrdom of James, the persecution of Nero, the siege of Jerusalem, etc., and the disproportionate emphasis on Paul’s recent voyage to Rome) strikes me as very persuasive.

The Acts of the apostles is clearly referring to events prior to 70 AD. It doesn't then follow that it was written prior to 70 AD.

Since Acts is the sequel to Luke’s Gospel, Luke must have been written in the AD 50s,

Again, this is a Non Sequitur. It's also begging the question. The gospel narratives were closely associated with the Jewish liturgy. They are liturgical narratives. The book of Acts stands alone as a historical account. The gospel narratives didn't need to be written down as they were being recited during the liturgies. They only had to be written down after the schism occurred between traditional Judaism and what eventually became a very gentile religion.

It is incredible that the early church would have waited for decades before committing the Jesus story on which it was founded to writing.

It didn't need to as the stories follow the Jewish liturgy perfectly. There are also numerous literary devices used (e.g. Introversions and Alternations; Chiasmas, etc.) which facilitate memory.

For the distinctive features of the Roman siege of Jerusalem as described by Josephus are conspicuously absent from Jesus’ descriptions of Jerusalem’s predicted destruction.

This is a remarkable claim by Craig due to the fact that the events of the sack of Jerusalem are perfectly in line with Jesus' prophecy. History records the Roman military falling back, (and a number of people fleeing when they had this opportunity) before returning to raze Jerusalem to the ground. This is right in line with the recommendations to flee without looking back.

His predictions resemble more closely the Old Testament descriptions of the destruction of Jerusalem in 586 BC by the Babylonian army than descriptions of the Roman destruction in AD 70.

False. There is no mention of the Babylonian army retreating for no apparent reason only to return and destroy Jerusalem.

As a prophet Jesus would naturally draw upon the Old Testament for his predicted judgement upon Jerusalem.Dating the Gospels | Reasonable Faith

He draws exclusively upon Old Testament condemnation or judgement language, but the descriptions of the destruction itself are right in line with what actually happened in 70 AD.
 

Windmillcharge

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Speak for yourself. Jesus asks for a coin because he doesn't have any money. Who hands him one? A Pharisee. Coincidence?




He draws exclusively upon Old Testament condemnation or judgement language, but the descriptions of the destruction itself are right in line with what actually happened in 70 AD.

It was a retorical comment about making a choice !

As fordescription of the destruction of Jerusalem. They are not found in the NT, but are found by those who either witness it or read accounts/talked to those who witnessed it.

The destruction was a m,ajor event for the Jews and one that Jesus had propercided would happen so any one writting would naturaly included that event in there account.
 

shnarkle

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It was a retorical comment about making a choice !

As fordescription of the destruction of Jerusalem. They are not found in the NT,
The gospels are historical accounts/narratives of the destruction of Jerusalem.
 

Invisibilis

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...Once again, none of this speculation about the facts demonstrates the resurrection claim is false but does provide a reasonable justification for remaining skeptical. ...
What is the point of trying to convince everybody that an orange is bitter when all you have tasted is the rind.
 
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shnarkle

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Then please educate me by suppling the new testiment quotes discribing the destruction of Jerusalem.
He explicitly points to the temple being razed to the ground as well as the fact that when the Roman army had Jerusalem surrounded, they suddenly fell back for no apparent reason, and many escaped. Those who stayed were slaughtered. Jesus explicitly points out that when you see that pull back happen, RUN! and don't look back.

I know of no historians who disagree with that historical fact happening one time only; 70AD.
 

Windmillcharge

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He explicitly points to the temple being razed to the ground as well as the fact that when the Roman army had Jerusalem surrounded, they suddenly fell back for no apparent reason, and many escaped. Those who stayed were slaughtered. Jesus explicitly points out that when you see that pull back happen, RUN! and don't look back.

I know of no historians who disagree with that historical fact happening one time only; 70AD.

Chapter and verse please.
 

shnarkle

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Chapter and verse please.
Luke 20:21-24

" And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

A number of historians record that there were signs in the heavens as well There was some sort of celestial event (a comet perhaps) that appeared like a sword in the sky at night. This was interpreted as a clear sign or omen of judgment from God

Again, it is a well documented historical fact that many people fled when the Roman army fell back before finally attacking Jerusalem and destroying it.
 

Windmillcharge

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Luke 20:21-24

" And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

A number of historians record that there were signs in the heavens as well There was some sort of celestial event (a comet perhaps) that appeared like a sword in the sky at night. This was interpreted as a clear sign or omen of judgment from God

Again, it is a well documented historical fact that many people fled when the Roman army fell back before finally attacking Jerusalem and destroying it.


The first lines opening words are key.
" When you see"
This are not descriptive words, they are telling the listenener that this is going to happen.
 

shnarkle

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The first lines opening words are key.
" When you see"
This are not descriptive words, they are telling the listenener that this is going to happen.

Sure, but then that's how all prophetic books are presented. The fact is that's how it was written after the fact, and it's how the prophetic works were written in the Old Testament as well which is why the historical events are thought to be illustrations of what will happen in the future. You're making my points for me.