Penal Substitution Theory and the presupposed (eisegesis) definition of מוּסָר in Isaiah 53:5

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CharismaticLady

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Great observations @CharismaticLady

This is a problem with Penal Substitution Theory. It does not believe that the “charges were dropped” or that “we are acquitted”. It holds that God is a slave to a humanistic sense of retributive justice and therefore must punish someone for a sin before that sin can be forgiven; so God punishes the Righteous, makes the Righteous a child of wrath, in order to forgive the unrighteous.

It is a horrible philosophy, but when it was articulated and applied to the Atonement during the Reformation period it resonated with the judicial philosophy of the day.

Personally, I do believe that Jesus took our punishment for the sins of the whole world; that doesn't bother me. What I do not agree with is that Jesus took the punishment for us individually for the "future" sins we commit too as in the saying "past, present and future" sins. No where is that taught in Scripture. Scripture is clear that individually, our PAST sins are cleansed. 2 Peter 1:9. What is not understood is that Jesus doesn't just leave us on our own then to sin again. No, He gives us His Spirit to make us born again with a new nature that does not desire to sin and is no longer trapped in the struggle of Romans 7. 2 Peter 1:2-4

Romans 8:1-9, Romans 6, 1 John 3, 2 Peter 1
 
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CharismaticLady

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Hello

I am reminded, from memory of the story in the bible of the man who had leprosy and sort healing from an OT prophet who told him that if he went and dipped himself in the Jordan River, that he would be healed, but refused to follow the prophets instruction as it seemed to simple a thing to do.

The man was required to believe by faith that if he entered the Jordan River that he would be healed. This discussion reminds me of the man with leprosy, in our case sin, that did not believe that the simple act of believing would bring healing to his body simply by stepping into the waters of the River Jordan, and in our case, that we will have our sins covered, if we accept that our sins have been covered by the death of Christ on the Cross.

The man was told by his Israelite servant girl that if he had been told to do something that cause him pain in order to gain his healing that he would have accepted that instruction without question and acted accordingly.

In John 6 Jesus told the crowds that to help to bring in the Kingdom of God, what was required of them was to believe in "Him, Whom He has sent." When the crowd pressed Jesus further, Jesus answered that they had to eat of His Flesh and to drink of His blood, and many rejected this simple step of faith, that if they entered into this act of eating His Flesh and the drinking of His blood, that they would be saved.

This discussion is all about what we believe is required to be saved. Not about what God requires from us to be saved. Faith.

Shalom

He finally did get into the Jordan and was healed.
 

CharismaticLady

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The whole premise of Penal Substitution is false.

I do not agree that the "whole" premise is false; just that it applies to present and future sins as well as past sins.

There are "conditions" for us to remain out from under the wrath of God, because once cleansed of all past sins, the wages of sin is still death if we choose to continue in sin. But Jesus has given us what was never given to those under the Law - His Spirit to empower us to no longer be enslaved to the power of sin. We now have a choice to choose our own Master/master - to righteousness, or to wrath. Romans 6:16
 

CharismaticLady

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You forgot a verse;

John 1:12
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,NASB

Jesus' death isn't applied to anyone apart from faith. His blood must be appropriated and applied just like way back when at the first passover. If the blood of the lamb isn't applied to the door posts they were not protected were they? That is ultimately fulfilled in Jesus' death. His blood is available to the world, no one is forbidden to come to Him, but they must believe. Until then Gods wrath in on them.

I agree. We certainly are on the same page here. :)
 

John Caldwell

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Personally, I do believe that Jesus took our punishment for the sins of the whole world; that doesn't bother me. What I do not agree with is that Jesus took the punishment for us individually for the "future" sins we commit too as in the saying "past, present and future" sins. No where is that taught in Scripture. Scripture is clear that individually, our PAST sins are cleansed. 2 Peter 1:9. What is not understood is that Jesus doesn't just leave us on our own then to sin again. No, He gives us His Spirit to make us born again with a new nature that does not desire to sin and is no longer trapped in the struggle of Romans 7. 2 Peter 1:2-4

Romans 8:1-9, Romans 6, 1 John 3, 2 Peter 1
I agree that Christ suffered the wages of sin on the behalf of mankind, but I do not believe God was punishing Jesus instead of punishing us. Instead I believe God was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting man's sins against them and giving all judgment to Christ.
 

CharismaticLady

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That you think so is my point.

Christ is the propitiation for our sins. This means (literally) that He is an atoning sacrifice through which wrath is averted.

What it does not mean (granted, it does not itself reject) is that propitiation is accomplished through punishment.

My question of you is not about what is present in Scripture but those ideas that Penal Substitution Theory brings to Scripture to get from the biblical text to the Theory.

If you are going to prove your point or prove me wrong that is where you have to focus.

I appear to be in the middle. I have no problem with believing that the blood spilled and the horrible crucifixion was our punishment He suffered for us. It is the false beliefs that come after that that I disagree with.
 
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CharismaticLady

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I agree that Christ suffered the wages of sin on the behalf of mankind, but I do not believe God was punishing Jesus instead of punishing us. Instead I believe God was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting man's sins against them and giving all judgment to Christ.

Maybe semantics, but I believe crucifixion is punishment. It certainly wasn't because Christ did anything wrong, so it was for us, not Himself. I believe Jesus took our place on the cross, once and for ALL. But there is always a condition.
 
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John Caldwell

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I appear to be in the middle. I have no problem with believing that the blood spilled and the horrible crucifixion was our punishment He suffered for us. It is the false beliefs that come after that that I disagree with.
Someone (a member here but not in this conversation) said on another forum that God was not wrathful to Christ when Christ experienced what would be wrath to us. I thought that was a good explanation (so good I still remember it.... which for me is a miracle).

The crux of the issue to me is that we cannot expect more favor from God than God has shown His Son. If God's own Righteous One failed to escape God's wrath then I do not know why we would expect to fare better.

We have to bear our crosses and follow Him. We are not delivered from the shadow of death but through it, and needn't fear because He is with us.

You point out another weakness of Penal Substitution Theory in what you do not accept. Those who hold the theory see no eternal consequences to sin because they were forgiven a couple thousand years ago.

The Theory renders the gospel powerless as it makes no demands on them.
 
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CharismaticLady

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You are batting 100 in falsehood. I am in the minority of modern believers who believes that in Christ is no sin.

Context is everything. What is the verse before that one? That will show us the type of sin that Christ has taken away and in Him we cannot do (vs. 4, 5 and 9) 1 John 5:16-17 shows two types of sin. 1 John 3 is about the sins unto death. But we are still capable of the other type even while walking in the Spirit, 1 John 1:7. Note at the end, Jesus blood is still cleansing. Cleaning what? What sin could you possibly be committing while walking in the Spirit. Sins NOT unto death which Scripture tells us are unwittingly committed - Trespasses as noted in the Lord's Prayer.
 

CharismaticLady

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There is no one "camp" as these people do not work together (John Wesley was probably the strongest supporter of Penal Substitution Theory and while Arminianism is definitely Reformed in terms of the Reformation it is not of the "Reformed camp" in terms of Calvinism).

There are two doctrines of Penal Substitution. John Wesley's is right. Calvinism is wrong.
 

Episkopos

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Context is everything. What is the verse before that one? That will show us the type of sin that Christ has taken away and in Him we cannot do (vs. 4, 5 and 9) 1 John 5:16-17 shows two types of sin. 1 John 3 is about the sins unto death. But we are still capable of the other type even while walking in the Spirit, 1 John 1:7. Note at the end, Jesus blood is still cleansing. Cleaning what? What sin could you possibly be committing while walking in the Spirit. Sins NOT unto death which Scripture tells us are unwittingly committed - Trespasses as noted in the Lord's Prayer.


Again..you are speaking of a different level of walk than what I'm speaking of and what the bible attests to. Certainly very few will be able to walk IN Christ...to walk as He walked. Most people will follow Christ and avoid the deadly sins...as you attest to.

But that doesn't change the truth that in Christ is NO sin whatsoever. No spot of sin at all. And that just means that you have not yet attained to what Paul sought after in the high calling of Christ. To be perfect as God is perfect...walking in the perfected humanity of Jesus.

So we are not speaking of the same thing. I know of what you speak of...but I don't think you have experienced what I speak of.
 

CharismaticLady

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Again..you are speaking of a different level of walk than what I'm speaking of and what the bible attests to. Certainly very few will be able to walk IN Christ...to walk as He walked. Most people will follow Christ and avoid the deadly sins...as you attest to.

But that doesn't change the truth that in Christ is NO sin whatsoever. No spot of sin at all. And that just means that you have not yet attained to what Paul sought after in the high calling of Christ. To be perfect as God is perfect...walking in the perfected humanity of Jesus.

So we are not speaking of the same thing. I know of what you speak of...but I don't think you have experienced what I speak of.

Sins of lawlessness - cleansed - accounted to us = 0
Trespasses while walking in the Spirit - cleansed - accounted to us = 0

0 + 0 = 0

But there is a condition, as always. Matthew 6:14-15

We still need to go on to perfection. 2 Peter 1:5-7
add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love.
 

CharismaticLady

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I've found many here are unable to defend their belief and simply "double down" and fight rather than explaining how they have interpreted any passage as they truly do not know. This is the danger of indoctrination. These guys have found one of the simplest (and probably most humanistic) theologies within Christianity under which to disciple themselves - I suspect because it makes no demands of them either in this life or the next.

It is biblical illiteracy on display. Centuries ago we had this issue but Scripture was not commonly available. Applying the principle of to whom much is given I believe now the level of illiteracy is a sin because these guys have Scripture yet prefer theory and tradition over God's Word.

I suppose I was once the same. It is sad not because they cling to superstition (they do) but because of the truth this superstition overshadows in their theology. They shackle the gospel in humanistic dogma and wonder why Christianity appears powerless to so many.

There is someone who fits this to a "T" and if I don't see a Scripture to interpret, I just ignore them.
 
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CharismaticLady

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I encourage you in your patient defense of the humble approach to the bible and it's teachings. Let all men be wrong but let God be honoured in the truth and never dishonoured by spreading lies about Him and His ways. :)

Hosea 7:13 Woe unto them! for they have fled from me: destruction unto them! because they have transgressed against me: though I have redeemed them, yet they have spoken lies against me.

Unfortunately, Proverbs 1:7
 
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CharismaticLady

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So your argument is that people with their sins atoned for by Jesus can wind up in hell? What kind of gospel is that?

Which do you believe?
1. Our past sins are cleansed? 2 Peter 1:9
2. Our past, present and future sins are already cleansed?

Give scriptures
 

CharismaticLady

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Do you think that the gospel is meant to prop up the carnal nature of men? All people have been atoned for. It's just that believers know about it...and are held to a higher standard for it.

But believers cannot be sent into the fire to perish. Only the wicked are destroyed in that way. The destiny for believers found to harbour iniquity is outer darkness (Read Jude). There will be weeping and anger.

I thought for a minute you might be right; but then I opened up the context, and believe the "sons of the Kingdom" at that time was Israel.

Matthew 8:
10 When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! 11 And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go your way; and as you have believed, so let it be done for you.” And his servant was healed that same hour.

I also do not see a correlation in Jude. They are the "ungodly."
 

Episkopos

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We still need to go on to perfection. 2 Peter 1:5-7
add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love.

That is about maturity...learning to remain in the grace of God. We can only
stay in the Spirit as long as we love none other than God. So then our maturity is to love as God loves.
Sins of lawlessness - cleansed - accounted to us = 0
Trespasses while walking in the Spirit - cleansed - accounted to us = 0

0 + 0 = 0

But there is a condition, as always. Matthew 6:14-15

This is about righteousness not holiness. There is no sin in holiness...so then no need for more forgiveness. Only they who sin need forgiveness.
 
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