Do we even have the correct definition of "saved?"

ScottA · Feb 21, 2020

Episkopos said:
You have the finish line in the wrong place. But your explanation is really out there...a la Gnosticism. When the bible says...know no man according to the flesh...that isn't because the person is only Spirit. So you have gone down a rabbit trail and a doozie there bro!

"Gnosticism", although meant as a cut (with some), proves to be synonymous with Godly or spiritual in nature...for God is spirit. So thank you for the compliment of being "really out there" like God is really out there, even if it is against you but helping those who know the truth.

But the truth we are discussing here is not the things of this world--there is no "finish line" with God, but only with men. And because salvation is of God and not of men, you are simply looking in the wrong place for the answers. So, the finish line is not the point. It has no bearing on the subject of salvation. One can come to that finish line a thousand years different from another, or in the beginning of life or in the eleventh hour...which agrees with Jesus' own words on the matter according to the parable, but here we are arguing about what is true, only because you did not hear it when He originally told us the truth.

In order to properly understand and state the truth of salvation, there needs to be a renewing of the mind to the ways of God, and a turning away from the ways, terms, and times of men and of the world.

ScottA · Feb 21, 2020

Episkopos said:
That is way out there. eternal life is superimposed on the life of the flesh. The dying is in a life that is alien to God. And walking in the Spirit is where God's operating system kicks in as the flesh system is disabled on the cross. But we go in and out of the Spirit.

You have some weird mystical one time thing going on...that is peculiar to you. I've never heard that extreme view of death and life.

The truth is that we have always 2 options. We can seek to be led by the Spirit or we can try being perfected according to the flesh in our own strength.

But the flesh power is always there as a default when we are not empowered by the Spirit.

So then you are way off base....and it would take a major overhaul to dig the depths of your errors here.

No...God's ways are higher, not "out there." But you are obviously leaning on your own understanding, which are the ways of men and the terms of the fallen world. None of that is relevant. You are mistaking the ways of the world to be the ways of God, as if it all were something more than His means of revealing all things to all people. Otherwise, it is all vanity--nothing. But you have made a religion out of that nothing and not heard what the Spirit says:

"eternal life is superimposed on the life of the flesh." No...the flesh is vanity--nothing, and it profits nothing.
"walking in the Spirit is where God's operating system kicks in as the flesh system is disabled on the cross." No...walking in the spirit is walking in the newness of life having been born again/also of the spirit of God; and the flesh was not "disabled" it was put to death.
"we go in and out of the Spirit." No...first the natural, then the spiritual--that's all, no "in and out" whatsoever.
"You have some weird mystical one time thing going on." Yes...it is obvious that it is a mystery to you; and yes, it is a "one time thing", once in Christ.
"I've never heard that extreme view of death and life." Yes, that is obvious.
"the flesh power is always there as a default when we are not empowered by the Spirit." "Always" is the wrong word. The correct word is "only": The flesh only has power until the spirit is born of God. If, on the other hand you want to go into life in the world after salvation and "to live is Christ"...that is a different subject.

Until you can reconcile your own errors...don't even begin to tell me of what you yourself don't have understanding of.

charity · Feb 21, 2020

Hello bbyrd009

Salvation is a gift from God

Ephesians 2:8

The gift of salvation is given to all those who believe and the gift cannot be withdrawn without God breaking His word. God cannot lie, and therefore, God cannot break His word. He promised the gift of salvation to those who believe in Him and that promise will be fulfilled, even if it is not appreciated.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

ScottA · Feb 21, 2020

BreadOfLife said:
And, in your complete ignorance, you take John OUT of context as you do the other Scriptures.

In context, John is talking about going back to a life of willful sin.
OTHERWISE, he would not have written the following and included himself:

1 John 1:5-10
This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light and in him is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live according to the truth; but IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If WE say WE have no sin, WE deceive OURSELVES, and the truth is not in US. If WE confess OUR SINS, he is faithful and just, and will forgive OUR SINS and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If WE say WE have not sinned, WE make him a liar, and his word is not in US.

Don't just quote Scripture - LEARN what it is saying . . .

You pit one scripture against another (God against God), but cannot and have not reconciled every word.

In 1 John 1:5-10, John is speaking of those who are not saved (our topic in this thread). And it is John who also clarifies that those He is referring to in 1 John 1:5-10 "do not know Him", which he emphatically states in 1 John 3:6.

...So, I have reconciled each of the scriptures for you, while you have quoted scripture in the same way Satan does. Excellent.

Taken · Feb 21, 2020

bbyrd009 said:
I am not here to condemn you or to convert you, honest, just to maybe get you to think about this "Jesus Returning" yack that you cannot Quote, bc it is not true and never will be, surely.

Probably not true for you...

Heb 9:
[28] So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time
without sin unto salvation.

To get you to go search "Mithraism and..."

I am not a Roman.

recall fwiw that no less than Jesus Himself said of the Roman,
I have not seen such faith in anyone from Israel

The POINT can be deeper, with more facts...
Israel is Gods People, primarily Jews.
Many Jews kept their Allegiance to the Pharisees and Rejected Jesus.
Israel was Governed politically and religiously by Gentiles.
A Gentile Guard, in Subjection and Allegiance to the Gentile Government head and Religious acceptance of Roman gods...
Had more backlash at stake...Yet without Reservation..."Spoke" his Truth.

ah, no, you call him "Jesus" with your mouth see, but you worship Him as Apollos,

That is a Lie.

according to your own confession.

That is another Lie.

Yah does not care even a little how someone identifies, or what they say they "believe," surely.

Surely All believing, is something God does care about...
And surely God Already knows, and has revealed, All will Bow to Him and Confess Belief...

Just as God does care About who is Saved...
Since the Saved ARE Gods Inheritance!

all start out at least as zionists or mithraists, all believers not all ppl.
briefly a zionist expects a literal Jesus to literally Return and wear the crown of david, and a mithraist believes they will ascend to the Elysian Fields via Apollos after they have literally died, more or less

A LOT Less...which is so Twisted it amounts to turning a TRUTH into a Lie.

i understand i am weird,

Agree, and also not the choice candidate to dictate others beliefs, makeup lies or label other persons with false terms.

Enow · Feb 21, 2020

bbyrd009 said:
And where did i say that i do not believe the Word of Yah, again? Bc im afraid im being um bonus misunderstood here, i totally believe the Word, and i love Scripture too, ftm

Explain your quote below.

bbyrd009 said:
the Bible is surely not Yah's Word, and It also is not the Book of Truth, which apparently does exist. Well i dunno about "exist" strictly speaking, but mentioned in Isaiah or one of the major prophets anyway

bbyrd009 · Feb 21, 2020

Renniks said:
I don't see what baptism has to do with it.

hence why i suggested you review what all preachers say during the ritual, yeh
or i mean dont, whatever, but fwiw what he says is central to this discussion, even though no one of course pays any attn to him, and certainly not to take him literally narf.

He says stuff like "buried" and "raised" right, only we get Absolutely Zero pre-counselling, etc, almost surely, and then as i said there is the Luby's thing to consider, as evidence i mean

Renniks said:
We celebrate our inheritance, which you seem to think we won't get. Still not sure what you are trying to say.

what i am trying to say, if anything, right now, is that your very language, "won't get," which implies "in the future," right, tells me that you havent gotten it yet, isnt that correct?

Dont expect to get it until after you have died? Yes, or no?

Renniks said:
We celebrate our inheritance, which you seem to think we won't get.

we dont go to another town, stay in one place, eat what they feed you though see, unless the Luby's happens to be in another town and even then im pretty sure some of the other conditions are being violated, stopping to talk with anyone, etc, going to the Samaritans, going in the way of the gentiles which you missed that thread too i guess, you could site search it if you want

bbyrd009 · Feb 21, 2020

Taken said:
Probably not true for you...

Heb 9:
[28] So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time
without sin unto salvation.

wadr "returning" is shuvu in Hebrew, or a strepho or (sometimes, rarely) a kampto root in Greek/Aramaic, and for those you get
Return to Me and I will return to you (x2, and referenced once for a 3) in Hebrew, and parables in Greek/Aramaic, but your appearing up there, see, is for those who previously did not see, not Christ or even Jesus "doing" something diff
perhaps.

He appears in the clouds, right?
ha, so there it is, yeh?

Taken said:
I am not a Roman.

so you say, and you are not worshipping Apollos either of course
which honest does not make a bit of diff as to how you will be judged anyway imo. Apollos waters for an obviously vital and God-ordained reason, and you are free to come as far up out of the water as you can or want to, you wont be judged for that bc it is you that will reap what you have sown, right? But the night is coming, beware the thief in the night, is all i would suggest there.

Or iow be prepared to at least contemplate Jesus never literally "returning" ok, bc you cannot Quote "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" either see. Inherit right now, imo.
Have a nice trip

Taken · Feb 21, 2020

bbyrd009 said:
...i am fairly convinced that to most believers at least "saved" infers immortality in heaven after literal death,

Eh, no.

Learn what Mortal means.
It APPLIES to A FLESH Body, that Shall DIE.
All FLESH Body's ARE Sentenced to Die.
That is mankind's Mortality, already Sentenced TO DIE.

Body's didn't come down from Heaven.
Body's DO NOT return or go to Heaven.

"UP" in Heaven is a Temporary place For: saved souls and Born Again spirits, OF:
Physically DEAD (and buried in the Earth,) Body's.

Immortality of the Body, does not Happen, iN Heaven.
Immortality of the (Saved and Born Again man) Happens When the Body IS raised UP from the Grave, on Earth. It is at that moment, The Body is Physically Changed, from Mortal (SUBJECT to Death) To Immortal (NOT ever again SUBJECT to Death).

bbyrd009 · Feb 21, 2020

ok, ty
(but im "dictating?")

Taken said:
That is a Lie.

well, i put that badly for your hearing, pls take it more as a suggestion, a possibility
i worshipped Apollos for forty years myself...and i think i maybe helped a widow once
mostly by accident lol

but see you are a nice guy, with a good heart, you wont have my problems i guess

Taken said:
That is another Lie.

well, i could replay your confession here and do a comparo to Mithraism, but what would be the point if you would only be offended by it? So again take it as a possibility, maybe. Or take it as i am just wrong, off base here, bc that is strictly an opinion based upon way too much study prolly lol.

Imo we all, every one, of us, start as either Zionists or Mithraists, and usually some combo i guess, and by this i do not mean "mithraist bad" or "zionist bad"
but i guess most of us die this way, too, having never inherited iow, which i find sad, even though no i havent inherited yet myself i guess, and tbh i think you have a much better shot than me

few there are who find it

Taken said:
Surely All believing, is something God does care about...

it is impossible to please Yah except by faith right

so, there's one way to say "have faith" and five ways to say believe, ill leave it up to you to conflate the two if you like.
But surely you see that the "Good" Samaritan would have nothing whatsoever to do with any of your "beliefs"

Taken said:
Agree, and also not the choice candidate to dictate others beliefs

so who's dictating? Believe you are going up to heaven after you have literally died for the rest of your life, if you want, i do not care and will not judge you, and im pretty sure no one else that matters will either, specially Yah, have i not just very recently said this or no?

I do not know anything about what happens after we die, and i am not trying to represent that i do ok, in case that has somehow been inferred

bbyrd009 · Feb 21, 2020

Enow said:
Explain your quote below.

well, i said Scripture is not Logos, not that i dont believe Logos. Or theophneustos for that matter, great stuff, weird dialect tho. Not written like we talk im pretty sure. Sacred rather than holy, weird. Law is apparently holy though, how freaky is that
sure not saying i get it

Taken · Feb 21, 2020

bbyrd009 said:
Dont expect to get it until after you have died? Yes, or no?

Be it:
A Saved soul,
A Born Again spirit,
an Immortal Body...

None of those things can HUMAN EYES...SEE.

But God CAN!
And Gods "Records" Reflect It is already Accomplished.

BY Gods Word, a man Can Trust To Believe IT IS accomplished...

Or a man, Can Wait TO SEE, "if" Gods Word and Promises "are" True.

OT men had to Wait TO SEE.
They struggled with the Word Only...
And thus was promised their people Would SEE.

When Jesus, appeared FOR THEM to SEE Gods Word... it was not what or the manner THEY anticipated, and for the most part, Rejected Jesus, The Christ, Their Promised Word of God.

I do not have to SEE what Gods Word teaches is already Accomplished to Believe it IS accomplished.

Some people of Little Faith...do find themselves waiting TO SEE, Before they can Believe...and for many, it Will Too Late, to Receive the Gifts, (they could have Had), iF, they had Trusted and FREELY Chosen to Become IN Christ...During their "own" Lifetime.

The Caveat...IF / Then "he" IS .

2 Cor 5:
[17] Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature:

bbyrd009 · Feb 21, 2020

i would say that a mortal must "put on" immortality which is not the same concept, but "like" the rest imo

satans dialect notwithstanding even
(ha, a dbl ent, "like the rest" lol)
(Samuel said who disturbs my rest)
(nevermind)

bbyrd009 · Feb 21, 2020

satan is a liar and the father of lies, right, but you cant Quote satan ever lying, why

bbyrd009 · Feb 21, 2020

its called the fruit of the tree of knowledge right, so obv or at least arguably "tree" is not meant literally, and we quickly find "tree = doctrine, fruit = result" ergo what is the result of the knowledge of good and evil? Or more precisely from eating from that tree, that we were told not to? Not Adam and Eve, me. Imo the result is "facts" but thats a pretty new working theory, satan speaks in "facts"
"this is that and
that is this"
the "fruit" of "eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil"

Renniks · Feb 21, 2020

bbyrd009 said:
hence why i suggested you review what all preachers say during the ritual, yeh
or i mean dont, whatever, but fwiw what he says is central to this discussion, even though no one of course pays any attn to him, and certainly not to take him literally narf.

He says stuff like "buried" and "raised" right, only we get Absolutely Zero pre-counselling, etc, almost surely, and then as i said there is the Luby's thing to consider, as evidence i mean
what i am trying to say, if anything, right now, is that your very language, "won't get," which implies "in the future," right, tells me that you havent gotten it yet, isnt that correct?

Dont expect to get it until after you have died? Yes, or no?

we dont go to another town, stay in one place, eat what they feed you though see, unless the Luby's happens to be in another town and even then im pretty sure some of the other conditions are being violated, stopping to talk with anyone, etc, going to the Samaritans, going in the way of the gentiles which you missed that thread too i guess, you could site search it if you want

Talking to you is like talking to a third grader with attention deficit disorder.
When I said I don't get it, it's because you have made no coherent argument for anything.
I've been to baptisms. What is said is: " I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit."

bbyrd009 · Feb 21, 2020

charity said:
The gift of salvation is given to all those who believe

i would argue "all those who have pistis" which is imo not the same thing, at all

bbyrd009 · Feb 21, 2020

Renniks said:
Talking to you is like talking to a third grader with attention deficit disorder.
When I said I don't get it, it's because you have made no coherent argument for anything.
I've been to baptisms. What is said is: " I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit."

ah well then my bad, southern baptist and several other rites usually have stuff about Buried and Raised and stuff

prism · Feb 21, 2020

Episkopos said:
The context you use is that you are already eternally saved...and everything you read is with that presumption.

So you can just say...that's me because I'm saved...and...that's not me because ...guess what??? I'm saved.

It's like looking at the bible through a straw.

Sorry, I don't eisegete Scripture.
In any case, if you have no assurance that you are saved, how much more 'stuff' will you need 'to do' before you are assured of salvation?

bbyrd009 · Feb 21, 2020

charity said:
and the gift cannot be withdrawn without God breaking His word. God cannot lie, and therefore, God cannot break His word. He promised the gift of salvation to those who believe in Him and that promise will be fulfilled, even if it is not appreciated.

In Satan's Dialect,
Chris

i would say again pistis is reduced to "believe in," so that red stew might be digested, wadr

Do we even have the correct definition of "saved?"

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