The Calling of the 144,000

lecoop · Dec 12, 2009

It seems to be a simple task: read the word of God, and believe it, and not add to it. But this whole thread is a hodgepoge of very poor exegesis and much eisegesis.

For example, it is only a myth that the 144,000 are sent out as evangelists. Sorry, eisegesis. Myth. What the bible does say, is that they are firstfruits. And they are seen next, in heaven, not in Jerusalem, but in the New Jersualem, at the throne of God. And of course, that was what was meant by firstfruits! They are the first of the Jews to believe, and the first to get to heaven - after the rapture and during this 7 years.

I guess someone has decided unilaterally that God could not write about the 144,000 being actualy and physical humans from the 12 tribes - because anything He had John write, would mean something else. Open the door wide, for a flood of different opinions will flood in! Any word in Revelation can mean anything! That is, anything BUT what it says.
How silly can some people be?

Did you never consider?

""If the plain sense makes sense, don't look for any other sense, or you will end up with nonsense." (Author unknown)

Coop

Benoni · Dec 12, 2009

Who is adding to anything. You say the 144,000 is literal? Well chapter and verse PLEASE or are you inserting your bias opinion. John was in Spirit on the Lord's day, no where does it say John was being literal; should I believe you or God's divine Word/

lecoop said:
It seems to be a simple task: read the word of God, and believe it, and not add to it. But this whole thread is a hodgepoge of very poor exegesis and much eisegesis.

For example, it is only a myth that the 144,000 are sent out as evangelists. Sorry, eisegesis. Myth. What the bible does say, is that they are firstfruits. And they are seen next, in heaven, not in Jerusalem, but in the New Jersualem, at the throne of God. And of course, that was what was meant by firstfruits! They are the first of the Jews to believe, and the first to get to heaven - after the rapture and during this 7 years.

I guess someone has decided unilaterally that God could not write about the 144,000 being actualy and physical humans from the 12 tribes - because anything He had John write, would mean something else. Open the door wide, for a flood of different opinions will flood in! Any word in Revelation can mean anything! That is, anything BUT what it says.
How silly can some people be?

Did you never consider?

""If the plain sense makes sense, don't look for any other sense, or you will end up with nonsense." (Author unknown)

Coop

lecoop · Dec 13, 2009

Benoni said:
Who is adding to anything. You say the 144,000 is literal? Well chapter and verse PLEASE or are you inserting your bias opinion. John was in Spirit on the Lord's day, no where does it say John was being literal; should I believe you or God's divine Word/

It says 12000 from each tribe. Why can't you simply believe what is written? Does it LOOK symbolic? Does it seem weird if we believe it literally? No, it makes perfect sense. God wants firstfruits. He always has. This is not something new for Him.

Coop

lecoop said:

It seems to be a simple task: read the word of God, and believe it, and not add to it. But this whole thread is a hodgepoge of very poor exegesis and much eisegesis.

For example, it is only a myth that the 144,000 are sent out as evangelists. Sorry, eisegesis. Myth. What the bible does say, is that they are firstfruits. And they are seen next, in heaven, not in Jerusalem, but in the New Jersualem, at the throne of God. And of course, that was what was meant by firstfruits! They are the first of the Jews to believe, and the first to get to heaven - after the rapture and during this 7 years.

I guess someone has decided unilaterally that God could not write about the 144,000 being actualy and physical humans from the 12 tribes - because anything He had John write, would mean something else. Open the door wide, for a flood of different opinions will flood in! Any word in Revelation can mean anything! That is, anything BUT what it says.
How silly can some people be?

Did you never consider?

""If the plain sense makes sense, don't look for any other sense, or you will end up with nonsense." (Author unknown)

Coop

Click to expand...

Benoni · Dec 14, 2009

Coop,

It says 12000 from each tribe. Why can't you simply believe what is written? Does it LOOK symbolic? Does it seem weird if we believe it literally? No, it makes perfect sense. God wants firstfruits. He always has. This is not something new for Him

Does not matter if it looks symbolic or that is seems weird if yo believe it is literal? There is at least five other ways religious men try to literally interpret the deepest most spiritual Book ever written like your self.

What matters is if we look at the words with spiritual eyes, eyes that see (not literal earthy things) or ears that hear what God's Word is trying to tell us. This deep and awesome Book od Scripture is the most profound hidden mystery written to spiritual men, not reliogious or carnal men, for those who have "ears" to hear.

There is nothing simple about The Book of Revelation the very word “revelation” means the unveiling, the unveiling of what? Jesus Christ with in you for that is where the spiritual is, with in. God does not call systems of religions.

Notice I am giving chapter and verse; in fact it is the first verse of the book. So if you say it is literal then prove it “with God’s Word”?

Revelations 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

This one little word is so reverent to the whole book Revelations; ‘signified” or signs and symbols. The Book Revelations can only be understood not as a book of prophecy, or literally; but as a very deep and awesome spiritual book by using signs and symbols that can only be found in the Bible.

Pro. 25: 2
It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter

The whole Book of Revelation is spiritual as well as symbolic; and is the most spiritual Book in the whole Bible.

Sure there are literal things in the book (a barber pole is literal but it tells you where to get a hair cut, it is a literal barber pole but it is a symbol meaning and perhaps if you lived in some far away lands some one would have to reveal its symbolic meaning to you.

lecoop · Dec 14, 2009

Benoni said:
Coop,

It says 12000 from each tribe. Why can't you simply believe what is written? Does it LOOK symbolic? Does it seem weird if we believe it literally? No, it makes perfect sense. God wants firstfruits. He always has. This is not something new for Him

Click to expand...

Does not matter if it looks symbolic or that is seems weird if yo believe it is literal? There is at least five other ways religious men try to literally interpret the deepest most spiritual Book ever written like your self.

What matters is if we look at the words with spiritual eyes, eyes that see (not literal earthy things) or ears that hear what God's Word is trying to tell us. This deep and awesome Book od Scripture is the most profound hidden mystery written to spiritual men, not reliogious or carnal men, for those who have "ears" to hear.

There is nothing simple about The Book of Revelation the very word “revelation” means the unveiling, the unveiling of what? Jesus Christ with in you for that is where the spiritual is, with in. God does not call systems of religions.

Notice I am giving chapter and verse; in fact it is the first verse of the book. So if you say it is literal then prove it “with God’s Word”?

Revelations 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

This one little word is so reverent to the whole book Revelations; ‘signified” or signs and symbols. The Book Revelations can only be understood not as a book of prophecy, or literally; but as a very deep and awesome spiritual book by using signs and symbols that can only be found in the Bible.

Pro. 25: 2
It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter

The whole Book of Revelation is spiritual as well as symbolic; and is the most spiritual Book in the whole Bible.

Sure there are literal things in the book (a barber pole is literal but it tells you where to get a hair cut, it is a literal barber pole but it is a symbol meaning and perhaps if you lived in some far away lands some one would have to reveal its symbolic meaning to you.

Signified

1) to give a sign, to signify, indicate

2) to make known

NIV:
1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

So John was visited by an angel. That is not anything significant: Many in the bible were visited by angels.
What was God's purpose? "to show his servants what must soon take place."

Why then make this something so mysterious? This book is John writing what He saw and heard in visions. It is plain that God meant for us to understand it. I will agree that when you read of a beast like a leopard with a mouth like a lion, and feet like a bear, it cannot be taken literally.

But, when we read "I, John, who also [am] your brother, and fellow-partner in the tribulation," we certainly can take it for exactly what it says.

Coop

Benoni · Dec 15, 2009

Why make it mysteries. Because God hides His deep and awesome things in mysteries.

The Word mystery was used 27 times in the NT and means sacred secret.

Then are other words like "parable", "veil", "hidden manna" that show God God’s deep truth are heard by individuals (singular) not by systems of religions (plural ears).
Matthew 13
13:13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive; 15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.' 16 "But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear;

There is a reason I said this statement and that is because religious men could careless what God’s Word declares all they care about is defending turf and if it does not line up with their bias/religious creed/dogma/idealism you name it they reject it. Deep spiritual things are not heard by religious men they are too busy dictating to God they have the truth but all they have are broken cisterns that hold no water.

Revelation is not written to those plural who have an ear to hear; it was written to “He that hath an ear” singular. If you are hearing what those who have an ear you are hearing not with a spiritual ear but a religious ear.

The elect are those who hear; the word “hear” is mentioned 46 times in the Book of Revelation. Hear singular; not plural; notice the word over comer is so often used with the word hear singular. The word see is mentioned 22 times and this has nothing to do with natural hearing and seeing,

Revelation 1:3
Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Revelation 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 2:17
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 2:29
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Revelation 3:3
Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Revelation 3:6
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Revelation 3:13
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Revelation 3:22
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Revelation 3:21-22 (in Context) Revelation 3 (Whole Chapter)

The elect of God are not all believers. The elect of God our the overcomers; only those see and hear what the spirit is saying to the out called. They are a far cry from the vast majority of believers who think because they are simply believing because they are the elect.

lecoop said:
Benoni said:

Coop,

It says 12000 from each tribe. Why can't you simply believe what is written? Does it LOOK symbolic? Does it seem weird if we believe it literally? No, it makes perfect sense. God wants firstfruits. He always has. This is not something new for Him

Click to expand...

Does not matter if it looks symbolic or that is seems weird if yo believe it is literal? There is at least five other ways religious men try to literally interpret the deepest most spiritual Book ever written like your self.

What matters is if we look at the words with spiritual eyes, eyes that see (not literal earthy things) or ears that hear what God's Word is trying to tell us. This deep and awesome Book od Scripture is the most profound hidden mystery written to spiritual men, not reliogious or carnal men, for those who have "ears" to hear.

There is nothing simple about The Book of Revelation the very word “revelation” means the unveiling, the unveiling of what? Jesus Christ with in you for that is where the spiritual is, with in. God does not call systems of religions.

Notice I am giving chapter and verse; in fact it is the first verse of the book. So if you say it is literal then prove it “with God’s Word”?

Revelations 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

This one little word is so reverent to the whole book Revelations; ‘signified” or signs and symbols. The Book Revelations can only be understood not as a book of prophecy, or literally; but as a very deep and awesome spiritual book by using signs and symbols that can only be found in the Bible.

Pro. 25: 2
It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter

The whole Book of Revelation is spiritual as well as symbolic; and is the most spiritual Book in the whole Bible.

Sure there are literal things in the book (a barber pole is literal but it tells you where to get a hair cut, it is a literal barber pole but it is a symbol meaning and perhaps if you lived in some far away lands some one would have to reveal its symbolic meaning to you.

Click to expand...

Signified

1) to give a sign, to signify, indicate

2) to make known

NIV:
1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

So John was visited by an angel. That is not anything significant: Many in the bible were visited by angels.
What was God's purpose? "to show his servants what must soon take place."

Why then make this something so mysterious? This book is John writing what He saw and heard in visions. It is plain that God meant for us to understand it. I will agree that when you read of a beast like a leopard with a mouth like a lion, and feet like a bear, it cannot be taken literally.

But, when we read "I, John, who also [am] your brother, and fellow-partner in the tribulation," we certainly can take it for exactly what it says.

Coop

guysmith · Dec 17, 2009

Christ, in parable form, stated that at the time of His advent, "two would be in the field, the one shall be taken, and the other left." In other words half of a group are taken and the other half are left.

Matthew 24: 37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Another of Christ's parables (the parable of the ten virgins) states that, 'at Christ's advent' half or five of the ten virgins are excluded from entering the wedding ceremony and the the other half or five are welcome in.

Matthew 25
1Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

2And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

3They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

4But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

5While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

6And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

7Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

8And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

13Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

These two parables are confirmed by Zechariah which states that: at Christ's advent, half of those in Jerusalem's seige are taken, with the other half being left.

Zechariah 14: 2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.

It is Jerusalem that has been designated a place-of-safety where God will protect and feed, for the duration of the GT, those He has "called."

This is the calling of the 144,000.

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

Benoni · Dec 17, 2009

GuySmith,

How do you equate one will be taken as a group, besides the one who is taken; where was he taken too?

The elect will rule and reign with Christ on the earth, if anyone will be taken it will be those who will need to be processed in the lake of Fire.

Yes there are five virgin’s but the number five is the spiritual number of grace. Grace/God's Blessing [5 burnt offerings -sin, trespass, meat, burnt, peace, 5 stones for David to kill the giant, five virgins, Benjamin getting five extra shares.

When it comes to a virgin, a virgin always speaks of pure (all of them were virgins) so they were all believers. Lamp of the virgin is there light, the oil speaks of the anointing the five foolish virgins did not fill there lamp with God’s anointing.

Another example of a lamp is the lampstand the priest used in the temple ceremony.

They sleep, much like Adam had a deep sleep put on him when God made Eve from his rib (never any mention of waking him up). So in other word the virgins who were believers who were a sleep and were not prepared with the proper anointing and did not trim there wicks.

God uses all theses types, shadows, symbolisms in scripture because we cannot see His reality as well as because of religious corrupt men have altered the truth. But the picture language of the Bible has unchangeableness where religious men did not understand what God’s Spirit was saying; so they cannot not altar God’s Word which they have so often in the past to promote their bias.

Benoni · Dec 17, 2009

The lampstand in scripture had seven staffs attached to one staff; symbolic of seven spirits of God in Isaiah 11:2; but one God. The number seven is always used when speaking of divine completeness; here are a few examples: [Genesis 7:2, Isaiah 11:2, 7 Spirits of God, 7 churches, 7 days of creation]

Here is another lamp used in scripture that is highly symbolic

A lamp is a light; just like Jesus; who is so often described as various types of light. I have always loved the concept of Jesus being “the bright and morning star”. In my words a tiny insignificant light in a very dark morning star; so often the only light out there; but with a promise of a new and glorious day; Rev. 22:16 proclaims: because I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Revelation 22:16
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
The lamp stand was a piece of furniture that was in the Tabernacle in the wilderness as well all the temples; when God’s builds something it is more then just a piece of furniture; it is something where He hides those little mystery’s so we can learn His glory; who He really is. Like all the furniture in the temple there was always a much deeper and awesome meaning.

Lamp stand was made by beaten gold; that is the craftsman would literally beat the gold to desired shape. Gold is symbolic of divine life which takes trials and tribulations to accomplish.

Gold always speak of divinity, silver speaks of redemption; brass; judgment; and iron; will. The pearl is an interesting jewel; it only jewel I know of that a product of life. Then put these thoughts together and spin it with the verse below.

Matt 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. 7Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Back to the lampstand

Fire is symbolic of the purging power of Holy Spirit. Cloven Tongues of fire; God is a consuming fire; etc Everyday the priest would have to immerse the lamp in olive oil (symbolic of God’s anointing) and light the lamp with fire.

There are three places in the temple/tabernacle; outer court (also should mention the three feast (Basic salvation/Feast of Passover); Holy Place (Pentecost’s Feast of Pentecost) That is where the lamp stand was placed; the light was placed in the Holy Place for light. (not a lot of light but in a dark place and a long night; at least it is better then the outer court; where there was no light)

And then we come to the Holy of holies/ or Feast of Tabernacle) Here there is no lamp; and why should there be; for God’s Glory was all the light ever needed

This shows me a deeper abiding place in God; using OT types and symbolisms. In my Fathers house are many mansions; or Greek (abode) abiding place. So do you all have a different abiding place then me. My place is not to condemn that abiding place but to seek, ask and knock to know God in a deeper abiding place that I am now

Benoni · Dec 17, 2009

And no I do not see any connection between overcomers or the 144,000 and these two parables.

guysmith · Dec 18, 2009

Hello benoni,

Do you not at least see that the parables and Zechariah's prediction revolve around the time of Christ's advent?

And, do you not see that in the parables half of each group are accepted into the kingdom? If so, do you not see that half of Jerusalem is taken and the other half protected by Christ?

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

Benoni · Dec 18, 2009

No not at all, these parables are messages to us so we may see and hear how God’s divine principles work and I see no reason to attack any form of time on them for they are timeless. Virgin’s speak of purity so they were believers, if half were virgins and the other half would be another symbolisms then you would have an argument.

Both examples example speaks of we should be prepared, there are many advents or comings of the Lord.

guysmith said:
Hello benoni,

Do you not at least see that the parables and Zechariah's prediction revolve around the time of Christ's advent?

And, do you not see that in the parables half of each group are accepted into the kingdom? If so, do you not see that half of Jerusalem is taken and the other half protected by Christ?

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

guysmith · Dec 19, 2009

benoni,

I understand your position.

Guy

guysmith · Dec 19, 2009

In Zechariah, God is providing "flee" instructions for a group of Christians which will have survivored to Christ's advent.

Zechariah 14:[sup]3[/sup] Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle. [sup]4[/sup] On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. [sup]5[/sup] You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake [sup]a]'>[a][/sup] in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

The place is Mount Zion.....

Joel 2:32 [sup]32[/sup] And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the LORD has said,
among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

And the survivors are the 144,000.

Revelation 14 [sup]1[/sup]Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. [sup]3[/sup]And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

This is the calling of the 144,000.

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

Benoni · Dec 19, 2009

The 144,000 are a far cry then mere survivors they are he "overcomers" they are the elect of God who will rule and reign The number 144,000 speaks of total divine goverment.

Notice there is a distinction between the great multitudes BEFORE the throne (Rev. 7:9) in comparison to the overcomer who Christ will grant to sit with me on my throne (Rev. 3:21) .

Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev. 3: 21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

guysmith said:
In Zechariah, God is providing "flee" instructions for a group of Christians which will have survivored to Christ's advent.

Zechariah 14:[sup]3[/sup] Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle. [sup]4[/sup] On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. [sup]5[/sup] You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake [sup]a]'>[a][/sup] in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

The place is Mount Zion.....

Joel 2:32 [sup]32[/sup] And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the LORD has said,
among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

And the survivors are the 144,000.

Revelation 14 [sup]1[/sup]Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. [sup]3[/sup]And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

This is the calling of the 144,000.

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

rob · Dec 19, 2009

Quote:

What the bible does say, is that they are firstfruits. And they are seen next, in heaven, not in Jerusalem, but in the New Jersualem, at the throne of God. And of course, that was what was meant by firstfruits! They are the first of the Jews to believe, and the first to get to heaven - after the rapture and during this 7 years.
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There is some confusion here concerning the 144,000. There are 144,000 in Revelation 7, who are the tribes of Israel. 144,000 of the 12 Tribes Sealed---The chosen Israelites preserved on earth.

There are another 144,000 in Revelation 14. These are those who have been purchased from the earth. (With the blood of Jesus Christ). As they have the name of the Lamb and the name of the Father written on their foreheads signifying that they are one with the Lamb and with the Father; these are the first OVERCOMERS. (See Rev. chapters 2 and 3)

144,000 is an actual number but with a symbolic meaning.

The New Jerusalem is the consummation of all God's work! This is the destiny of all true believers, it is not a place, rather it is The Union of Divinity with Humanity, It comes down out of heaven from God to the NEW HEAVENS AND NEW EARTH. (Revelation 21:1-10)

Benoni · Dec 19, 2009

You are totally carnalizing the most spiritual Book in the Bible, there is no literal interpetations of the Book of Revelation. I guess the difference between the throne of God and before the throne of God means nothing to you, I quoted the difference but your blindless of your doctrine got in the way of your spiritual vision. By the way there is no rapture or second coming both of these unscriptural word come from Babylon not God’s Word there are “many” returns of the Lord not just two. The Great Tribulation simple means great pressure, The firstfruits are also the overcomers and are on Mount Zion which is where the spiritual king reigns (Jesus) which is even a higher realm then Jersalsam which is the city where Mt Zion resides.

You speak of natural Israel which is all not relavant for it is spiritual Israel where God’s elect dwell, the natural Jews rejected the Christ so why would they have any place in God’s Kingdom. Jesus blood purchased all of Adam’s race not just 144,000 which is a spiritual number not literal. I agree their name of the father was written on their forhead but they are the Overcomers not the first.

Yes the 144,000 is a actual number but what does it mean? It speaks of totally divine government.

rob said:
What the bible does say, is that they are firstfruits. And they are seen next, in heaven, not in Jerusalem, but in the New Jersualem, at the throne of God. And of course, that was what was meant by firstfruits! They are the first of the Jews to believe, and the first to get to heaven - after the rapture and during this 7 years.
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There is some confusion here concerning the 144,000. There are 144,000 in Revelation 7, who are the tribes of Israel. 144,000 of the 12 Tribes Sealed---The chosen Israelites preserved on earth.

There are another 144,000 in Revelation 14. These are those who have been purchased from the earth. (With the blood of Jesus Christ). As they have the name of the Lamb and the name of the Father written on their foreheads signifying that they are one with the Lamb and with the Father; these are the first OVERCOMERS. (See Rev. chapters 2 and 3)

144,000 is an actual number but with a symbolic meaning.

The New Jerusalem is the consummation of all God's work! This is the destiny of all true believers, it is not a place, rather it is The Union of Divinity with Humanity, It comes down out of heaven from God to the NEW HEAVENS AND NEW EARTH. (Revelation 21:1-10)

guysmith · Dec 20, 2009

The 144,000 will be found on Mount Zion at Christ's advent and represent the male count.

Revelation 14:1Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

The females are described as the daughters of Zion.

Isaiah 4: 2 In that day the Branch of the LORD will be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the land will be the pride and glory of the survivors in Israel. 3 Those who are left in Zion, who remain in Jerusalem, will be called holy, all who are recorded among the living in Jerusalem. 4 The Lord will wash away the filth of the women of Zion; he will cleanse the bloodstains from Jerusalem by a spirit of judgment and a spirit of fire. 5 Then the LORD will create over all of Mount Zion and over those who assemble there a cloud of smoke by day and a glow of flaming fire by night; over all the glory will be a canopy. 6 It will be a shelter and shade from the heat of the day, and a refuge and hiding place from the storm and rain.

The is the calling of the 144,000.

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

guysmith · Dec 24, 2009

Psalm 74:2
Remember the people you purchased of old, the tribe of your inheritance, whom you redeemed— Mount Zion, where you dwelt.

This is the calling of the 144,000.

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

Benoni · Dec 24, 2009

Revelation is the most spiritual book in the Bible.

God is not a sexist.

Male speak of the spiritual, fememine speak of the soulish.

The letter killeth, and God purposely pleased those divine words in the Bible to say something to us deep and profound; but we have a tendency to hear and see what some man made system believes and ignore the fact that God’s spirit always has a deep and profound message it we (singular) have an ear to hear.

Like I just said God is a spirit; His word is neither male nor female.

When God speaks to us He uses what I will call spiritual language, symbolisms, examples, parables to show us something beyond the letter that killeth.

1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come. example

Example: NT:5178 a : Strong’s: tupikos (toop-ee-kos'); an adverb related to NT:5179; found only in 1 Cor 10:11: as a warning, by way of example, typologically (i.e. figuratively, as a prophetic type, a typological interpretation of Scripture)

Masculine is always spirit or spiritual (man child) God name is always referred in the masculine with the exception of one of his names (El Shaddai) which is feminine (sorry to break some wineskins)? It has been said there are over two hundred different names for God is scripture; a name speaks of name, nature, character and authority. God is one but has many different natures.

But look at the feminine side of scripture we have the soul, the church, Baby lon. My point a man can have a soulish type ministry spiritually speaking. But I have meet women who were masculine for their ministries were spirit. The women of Zional example is speaking of the soul realm.

You see earthy Mt Zion is where the earthy king lived ( King David) and his earthy court, so we understand what spiritual Mt Zion is. Mt Zion is not so much a geographal location as it is a realm of spiritual leadership a place where the elect of God dwell.

guysmith said:
The 144,000 will be found on Mount Zion at Christ's advent and represent the male count.

Revelation 14:1Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

The females are described as the daughters of Zion.

Isaiah 4: 2 In that day the Branch of the LORD will be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the land will be the pride and glory of the survivors in Israel. 3 Those who are left in Zion, who remain in Jerusalem, will be called holy, all who are recorded among the living in Jerusalem. 4 The Lord will wash away the filth of the women of Zion; he will cleanse the bloodstains from Jerusalem by a spirit of judgment and a spirit of fire. 5 Then the LORD will create over all of Mount Zion and over those who assemble there a cloud of smoke by day and a glow of flaming fire by night; over all the glory will be a canopy. 6 It will be a shelter and shade from the heat of the day, and a refuge and hiding place from the storm and rain.

The is the calling of the 144,000.

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

1 Peter 2: 6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

Romans 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

The spirtual idea of Mt Zion offends most.

A great example of spiritual Mt Zion is the Tabernacle of David in Acts 15 which specks of the Melchisedec Priesthood.

Do you know what the Tabernacle of David was naturally speaking?

Acts 15:16-18

16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17 That the residue (remainder) of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the wor
KJV

guysmith said:
Psalm 74:2
Remember the people you purchased of old, the tribe of your inheritance, whom you redeemed— Mount Zion, where you dwelt.

This is the calling of the 144,000.

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

The Calling of the 144,000

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