The 144,000 before God at the end.

[Timtofly]

Again Jacobs Trouble is about the Church, the Body of Christ going through much tribulation prior to the 2 nd coming of Christ.

The church is not of Jacob. The church is of Christ.

 

[ewq1938]

Revelation does have flashbacks and more information on a topic elsewhere

And it is that way in chp 7 where the multitude is seen as part of the eternity, Rev 21 timeframe despite it's early position within the book. Details give the right clues on how to date the timeframe. It's too lengthy to get into a detailed exegesis of it here in this thread though.

 

[Keraz]

The church is not of Jacob. The church is of Christ.

A correct metaphor for the true Chirstian Church is Jacob, as he was the original Overcomer for God.
Now; we who Overcome Satan, as seen in each of the Seven Church's of Revelation, are Gods Israelite peoples.

 

[ewq1938]

The Historical record confirms that the 7th Bowl Judgement predominately occurred during the 20th century

I don't agree with any of that. IMO the bowls only pour at the second coming so none of the bowls have poured yet.

 

[Keraz]

Details give the right clues on how to date the timeframe.

It seems some go by pre-conceived beliefs, to fit things in to suit.

in chp 7 where the multitude is seen as part of the eternity,

That belief is way out in left field,
Many prophesies attest to the truth, they are the living faithful Christian peoples, the ones who stood firm in their faith and trust in the Lord, during the just passed Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.
They will be gathered into the very place their spiritual ancestors were. Romans 9:24-26

 

[ewq1938]

belief is way out in left field,

Yet you said, "Revelation does have flashbacks and more information on a topic elsewhere"

so the concept is not left field at all. You just have yet to recognize that chp 7 and the GM are a flashback of the Rev 21 eternity.

 

[Jay Ross]

I don't agree with any of that. IMO the bowls only pour at the second coming so none of the bowls have poured yet.

That is okay. However, your understanding is not my problem, that is yours to deal with.

Goodbye

 

[Keraz]

Yet you said, "Revelation does have flashbacks and more information on a topic elsewhere"

so the concept is not left field at all. You just have yet to recognize that chp 7 and the GM are a flashback of the Rev 21 eternity.

A careful reading of Ch 7 and Rev 21, shows your belief is wrong.
Proved also by how Gods people are present when the 'beast' takes over for the 42 months. Rev 13:7

 

[brightfame52]

The church is not of Jacob. The church is of Christ.

The Church is Jacob going through the much tribulation. Jacobs Trouble

 

[brightfame52]

The 144 000 is the church, the Body of Christ, He is its Head, as He is the Head of His Body the Church Eph 5:23

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Col 1 18

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Notice in Rev 14 5 they are said to be without fault before the Throne of God, so likewise the Church in Col 1 is said to be without fault or unblameable Col 1 22

22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

In fact the unblameable in Col 1 22 is the very same greek word for without fault in Rev 14 5

Its the word amōmos:

1. without blemish
   1. as a sacrifice without spot or blemish
2. morally: without blemish, faultless, unblameable

Also note they are both stated to be before His Throne or In His Sight .

The 144 000 are identified with Mt Zion, the Lamb stood on as Head Rev 14:1

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Mt Zion is another I.D for the Church Heb 12:22-23


22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Christ was set upon Mt Zion as Head Ps 2:6

6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

This is Christ the King and Head of His Body the Church

 

[rebuilder 454]

A correct metaphor for the true Chirstian Church is Jacob, as he was the original Overcomer for God.
Now; we who Overcome Satan, as seen in each of the Seven Church's of Revelation, are Gods Israelite peoples.

" ... that the blessings of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles." This shows us clearly the differentiation as we know that Jacob, or Israel ,was already under the Abrahamic Covenant. So the distinction between the Jew and the Gentile in our modern times is vividly portrayed

 

[covenantee]

" ... that the blessings of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles." This shows us clearly the differentiation as we know that Jacob, or Israel ,was already under the Abrahamic Covenant. So the distinction between the Jew and the Gentile in our modern times is vividly portrayed

Abraham wasn't a Jew. He was a Chaldean. His blessings were the result of his faith and obedience in and to God and His Covenant.

The same blessings upon both Jews and Gentiles are realized solely and exclusively by faith and obedience, not by DNA.

There's no "distinction between the Jew and the Gentile" except in racist pharisaic dispensational delusion.

God is not a racist. Acts 10:34-35; Romans 10:12; Galatians 3:28-29; Galatians 5:6; Ephesians 2:14

Despite your incessant desperate efforts, He hasn't been and cannot be contorted into one.

 

[Keraz]

" ... that the blessings of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles." This shows us clearly the differentiation as we know that Jacob, or Israel ,was already under the Abrahamic Covenant. So the distinction between the Jew and the Gentile in our modern times is vividly portrayed

Your determination to have a Jewish redemption is wrong and will never happen.

The Parable of the Landowner: Ethnic Israel is rejected and the true Israelites is now the Church, every faithful Christian:
Matthew 21:33-46 Listen to another parable. There was a landowner who planted a vineyard and put a wall around it, built a watchtower and rented it out to vine-growers then went on a journey. When the harvest time approached, he sent his slaves to the vine-growers to receive his produce. The vine-growers took his slaves and beat one, and killed another, and stoned a third. Again he sent another group of slaves larger than the first; and they did the same thing to them. But afterward he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.' But when the vine-growers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir; come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.' They took him, and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. Therefore when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers? They said to Him, "He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons. Jesus said to them: Did you never read in the Scriptures; The Stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone. This is the Lord’s doing and it is amazing to us.

Therefore I say to you, the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, who will produce the fruit of it. And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust. When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them. When they sought to seize Him, they feared the people, because they considered Him to be a prophet.

In this perfectly clear parable, paralleled by Isaiah 5:1-7, Jesus prophesied that the Jews, as a nation, were going to be replaced by something new; faithful Christians who do what they can to spread the Gospel and who fulfill their appointed tasks.

"He will bring those wretches to a wretched end" did happen in 70 AD.

Now the Jewish nation are back, but still rejecting Jesus and they face the third swing of the Sword, Ezekiel 21:14, their final judgement, Isaiah 6:11-13, and only a remnant will survive. Romans 9:27

The entire leadership of the early Christian Church and most of the Elders in the churches were Jewish. They became Christians who stopped keeping the Sabbath and abandoned the Mosaic system of Judaism. They began worshipping God on their seventh day of the working week, the Lord's day. Colossians 2:16-17

Jesus was a Jew, but most Jews rejected Him as the Messiah. then and now. Salvation is now open to both Jew and Gentile equally. Everyone must believe, repent, confess Jesus as Lord and be baptized for the remission of their sins. There is only one way to get saved!

Jews have no special route to heaven that Gentiles do not have. They all must believe and become true Christian believers to be saved.

Paul always began his evangelism in a new city by preaching in the Jewish synagogues. When the Jews rejected the gospel, he turned to the gentiles: But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began contradicting the things spoken by Paul, and were blaspheming. Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said: It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; but since you Jews repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. Acts 13:45-46

1 Peter 2:7-10 So for you who have faith, the Cornerstone [Jesus] is of great value, but for the faithless it is a stone they trip over. They trip and fall because they refuse to believe the Word and this is the fate appointed for them.

But you Christians are now the chosen race, a royal priesthood, a dedicated people, a nation claimed by God for His own. We are called out of darkness into His glorious Light. Once Christians were not a people, now you are God’s people…..
Notice that the; you are a chosen, holy nation of priests, that was originally applied to ethnic Israel at the foot of Mt. Sinai, Exodus 19:6, is now applied to Christians to the exclusion of ethnic Israel, unless they too, become Christian.

The fate appointed for them.
Jeremiah 12:14 has the clearest prophecy of God’s intentions for the apostate Jewish State of Israel.: …I shall uproot the evil neighbors from My Land and also Judah as well. But if they learn the ways of My [Christian] people, then; their families can join My people there.

 

[covenantee]

Notice that the; you are a chosen, holy nation of priests, that was originally applied to ethnic Israel at the foot of Mt. Sinai, Exodus 19:6

Exodus 19
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

It was applied to those who, in faith and obedience, would keep His covenant.

Many did. Many others did not.

The former He blessed and preserved.

The latter He cursed and slew.

Ethnicity was, is, and ever will be; irrelevant.

 

[Timtofly]

The Church is Jacob going through the much tribulation. Jacobs Trouble

After the church is removed.

Jacob will again be natural branches. The 144k are the firstfruits of the natural branch restoration.

The church is not on the earth during Jacob's Trouble.

How is the church defined? As natural branches or wild branches, grafted in, without distinction?

The church come out of Egypt led by Moses is the same as mount Zion as well. What is your point?

 

[Davy]

After the church is removed.

Jacob will again be natural branches. The 144k are the firstfruits of the natural branch restoration.

WRONG!

The RESTORATION of God's Israel, the joining of the two sticks of Ezekiel 37, doesn't happen until the day Jesus Christ returns to gather His Church and sits upon David's throne in Jerusalem, the throne Jesus is to inherit (Acts 2:30; Matthew 19:28).

That of course also means, that will only happen AFTER... the tribulation, which is when Jesus showed His coming to gather His Church will be (Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27).

The church is not on the earth during Jacob's Trouble.

How is the church defined? As natural branches or wild branches, grafted in, without distinction?

The church come out of Egypt led by Moses is the same as mount Zion as well. What is your point?

The Church most definitely WILL STILL BE ON EARTH through the "great tribulation", as written...

Again brethren, don't listen to the gullible fallen away on men's false Pre-trib Rapture theory, the Matthew 24:29-31 Scripture by Lord Jesus Himself showed His coming to gather His saints is AFTER the tribulation...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

So don't listen to those like Timtofly that have fallen away from Christ and His Word of Truth because of putting his trust more in men's false doctrine of a Pre-trib Rapture, instead of the simplicity of The Word God per the above.

Many on that false Pre-trib Rapture theory will be shocked when Lord Jesus does return after the "great tribulation", and those deceived then immediately learn that they bowed to the wrong Messiah, the Antichrist who comes first. Even in 2 Thessalonians 2, Apostle Paul revealed that the Antichrist must... come first, before Jesus comes to gather His Church.