Did Jesus have faith ?

quietthinker · Sep 11, 2020

john t said:
When someone quotes Ellen White in a sig, it is quite natural to assume that the person is SDA. Thus if you get "annoyed off" at people asking a question based upon the "merit of your EGW quote" common sense dictates that you remove her words.

To keep her words in your sig and complain when people make a natural and obvious connection is rather silly, don't you think?

BTW we all notice that you did not answer the question. Why?

john t.....I am neither annoyed or complaining. What I am doing is pointing out the situation.....and in regards to answering the question which you say I haven't answered I would say.....you haven't heard my answer.

Truth is truth even if it comes from and ass....in fact, God uses 'asses' a lot because they don't have an inflated idea of their own importance and subsequently are reliant on God to do what God wants to do.

I also understand why you make the connections you do but your connections are in error.

If you have never read EGW I would recommend you do. You will then know from personal experience her thrust instead of taking on board ie, relying on what others say about her words and thereby shaping your views.

If you want recommendations just ask.

By the way, do you find my signature 'quote' offensive, untrue or blindingly accurate?

john t · Sep 11, 2020

CadyandZoe said:
Did I ask you this already? I can't remember. Do you believe Jesus came in the flesh? I know, you just said you affirm the hypostatic union. Isn't it curious though, that those who strongly affirm the hypostatic union can't seem to accept that Jesus was human. Why is that?

That post of yours is utter nonsense, as are these, your quotes:

CadyandZoe said: ↑
Did I ask you this already? I can't remember. Do you believe Jesus came in the flesh? I know, you just said you affirm the hypostatic union. Isn't it curious though, that those who strongly affirm the hypostatic union can't seem to accept that Jesus was human. Why is that?

You seem not to understand what you post about, or else you would not have contradicted yourself when in one sentence, you say I believe in the hypostatic union, but in the second you say I do not. Why is that?

To quote the philosopher Shania Twain, "That don't impress me much."

CadyandZoe said: ↑
I'm arguing against those who mistakenly believe that Jesus couldn't believe the scriptures or trust God's word because he was God incarnate.

Then you are NOT arguing against me. Jesus CAUSED the Scriptures to be written as they were. What is so hard for you to understand about that? since He is the Author of Scripture, Jesus believed what he wrote. To believe differently is simply nonsense

CadyandZoe said:
I know what the term means. I simply think it is an absurd notion. Did you know that those who came up with that notion were students of Greek philosophy?

It is all nonsense because it is 100% games playing. You attribute an unsourced "some Christians" who do not believe in the hypostatic. for it was not an ambiguous "Greek students" who coined the term it was the combination of two Ecumenical Councils. In 451, the Fourth Ecumenical Council in Chalcedon stated that Jesus Christ had two natures the first being fully God, the second being fully human. Chalcedon was to the date the biggest, and most documented of the Ecumenical Councils.

Erroneously, you call those learned men who were scholars in the church and taught in the "universities" or graduate schools of the day "students of Greek philosophy". How banal!

Obviously, you do know know that the entire New Testament was written in Koinie Greek.

The Fifth Ecumenical Council in 533 was also the second Ecumenical Council held in Constantinople. One of the outcomes from that was they gave name to the two natures of Jesus defined in the previous Ecumenical Council. ὑπόστασις hypóstasis, ""sediment, foundation, substance, subsistence") is a technical term in Christian theology employed in mainstream Christology to describe the union of Christ's humanity and divinity in one hypostasis, or individual existence.

So I suggest that you cease from your erroneous pontificating because others who have studied things like that in depth may be more direct than I have been in exposing areas in which you make up your own "facts".

john t · Sep 11, 2020

quietthinker said:
If you have never read EGW I would recommend you do. You will then know from personal experience her thrust instead of taking on board ie, relying on what others say about her words and thereby shaping your views.

If you want recommendations just ask.

By the way, do you find my signature 'quote' offensive, untrue or blindingly accurate?

That question is one that is inciting a derail discussing your church. I never said anything such as you are suggesting, and I will not go any further than I went below, which are direct answers to your questions.

The SDA brand of "salvation"is graceless, based on works such as proper diet, proper attendance on Saturdays, and adherence to the medical quackery of the late 18th century in which she was so much involved Did you know that one of Ellen's favorite foods was oysters, and that she was addicted to drinking vinegar?

I have read her, and I found some of the things she wrote about masturbation to be hilariously stupid. I found her "prophesy about Great Britain entering our civil war to be worthy of stoning (See Deuteronomy 18) and the stuff surrounding the "Investigative Judgment" to be absolute heresy. I can say that because it totally negates the Atonement of Jesus Christ on the cross.

i WILL NOT DERAIL THIS THREAD TO DISCUSS THE SDA CHURCH ANY FURTHER. ATTEMPTS TO DO SO WILL BE REPORTED.

quietthinker · Sep 12, 2020

john t said:
That question is one that is inciting a derail discussing your church. I never said anything such as you are suggesting, and I will not go any further than I went below, which are direct answers to your questions.

The SDA brand of "salvation"is graceless, based on works such as proper diet, proper attendance on Saturdays, and adherence to the medical quackery of the late 18th century in which she was so much involved Did you know that one of Ellen's favorite foods was oysters, and that she was addicted to drinking vinegar?

I have read her, and I found some of the things she wrote about masturbation to be hilariously stupid. I found her "prophesy about Great Britain entering our civil war to be worthy of stoning (See Deuteronomy 18) and the stuff surrounding the "Investigative Judgment" to be absolute heresy. I can say that because it totally negates the Atonement of Jesus Christ on the cross.

i WILL NOT DERAIL THIS THREAD TO DISCUSS THE SDA CHURCH ANY FURTHER. ATTEMPTS TO DO SO WILL BE REPORTED.

john t said:
That question is one that is inciting a derail discussing your church. I never said anything such as you are suggesting, and I will not go any further than I went below, which are direct answers to your questions.

Is my question that much of a threat? ......and derailment is in your imagination.

Regarding your further claims there are only a few options. Here they are:- 1. You don't have a clue what you're talking about. 2. You are parroting what others have lyingly asserted. 3. You are just plain lying.

Your upper case excuse of thread derailment is bogus and the threat of reporting is nothing more than a decoy to allay your fear of exposure.

Do you want to throw me off the cliff as well?

All that said.....you are not obliged to reply but seeing you have engaged in conversation my responses are direct.

charity · Sep 12, 2020

'I am crucified with Christ:
nevertheless I live;
yet not I, but Christ liveth in me:
and the life which I now live in the flesh
I live by the faith of the Son of God,
Who loved me, and gave Himself for me.'
(Gal 2:20)

Hello @Christophany,

I woke with this verse on my mind, and realised that it had application to this thread. Here again the words, 'the faith of the Son of God' is referred to, as has been referenced in previous entries, with such verses as Galatians 2:16 and Philippians 3:9 which also refer to, 'the faith of Christ'. I would appreciate hearing your response to these verses please. If you have already responded, and I have missed it, perhaps you would direct me to it by it's reference number (#..)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

CadyandZoe · Sep 12, 2020

john t said:
That post of yours is utter nonsense, as are these, your quotes:
You seem not to understand what you post about, or else you would not have contradicted yourself when in one sentence, you say I believe in the hypostatic union, but in the second you say I do not. Why is that?

The talk is about our ostensible beliefs; those doctrines we say we believe without actually believing them. You say you believe the doctrine of the hypostatic union, but you don't seem to actually believe that Jesus was a human being.

Then you are NOT arguing against me. Jesus CAUSED the Scriptures to be written as they were.

Did he? I don't think you can prove that from scripture.

In 451, the Fourth Ecumenical Council in Chalcedon stated that Jesus Christ had two natures the first being fully God, the second being fully human. Chalcedon was to the date the biggest, and most documented of the Ecumenical Councils.

How did these men hold such a ridiculous and absurd notion? They were students of Greek Philosophy. They were the product of Aristotle's ontology, which was goofy and led to some really goofy ideas like transubstantiation: the body of Christ is "present in" the bread.

So I suggest that you cease from your erroneous pontificating because others who have studied things like that in depth may be more direct than I have been in exposing areas in which you make up your own "facts".

I will never cease to point out when people affirm goofy ideas, not because they are true, but because those who ostensibly affirm goofy ideas do business with them in order to seek glory from men.

ChristisGod · Sep 12, 2020

charity said:
'I am crucified with Christ:
nevertheless I live;
yet not I, but Christ liveth in me:
and the life which I now live in the flesh
I live by the faith of the Son of God,
Who loved me, and gave Himself for me.'
(Gal 2:20)

Hello @Christophany,

I woke with this verse on my mind, and realised that it had application to this thread. Here again the words, 'the faith of the Son of God' is referred to, as has been referenced in previous entries, with such verses as Galatians 2:16 and Philippians 3:9 which also refer to, 'the faith of Christ'. I would appreciate hearing your response to these verses please. If you have already responded, and I have missed it, perhaps you would direct me to it by it's reference number (#..)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

That is a good verse if a person is a KJV only but these I believe are the more accurate translations below :

English Standard Version
I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Berean Study Bible
I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

New American Standard Bible
"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

New King James Version
I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

charity · Sep 12, 2020

Christophany said:
That is a good verse if a person is a KJV only but these I believe are the more accurate translations below :

English Standard Version
I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Berean Study Bible
I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

New American Standard Bible
"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

New King James Version
I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Hello @Christophany,

Thank you. You may be right. Yet, looking up the Greek interlinear Bible this does not appear to be the case.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

ChristisGod · Sep 12, 2020

charity said:
Hello @Christophany,

Thank you. You may be right. Yet, looking up the Greek interlinear Bible this does not appear to be the case.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

That has been the discussion and its debatable as there are people on both sides of the argument. Is it faith in Christ or the faith of Christ. The majority of the time its always translated faith in Jesus even in the KJV.

hope this helps !!!

charity · Sep 12, 2020

No it does not help, @Christophany, but thank you for responding. I will compare Scripture with Scripture and check out what you have said.

With love in Christ Jesus
Chris

ChristisGod · Sep 12, 2020

charity said:
No it does not help, @Christophany, but thank you for responding. I will compare Scripture with Scripture and check out what you have said.

With love in Christ Jesus
Chris

Look at how many times the same word/phrase is translated Faith in Jesus vs the faith of Jesus. Its the same in the Greek .

We are not saved by the faith of Jesus but by placing our faith in Him as the object of our faith. Jesus faith doesn't save a man its placing our faith in Him that saves a person from their sin.

hope this helps !!!

charity · Sep 12, 2020

Christophany said:
Look at how many times the same word/phrase is translated Faith in Jesus vs the faith of Jesus. Its the same in the Greek .

We are not saved by the faith of Jesus but by placing our faith in Him as the object of our faith. Jesus faith doesn't save a man its placing our faith in Him that saves a person from their sin.

hope this helps !!!

As I have said, @Christophany, I will check this out with the original wording, and compare Scripture with Scripture to arrive at the truth. There may be no reason why Galatians 2:20, Galatians 2:16 and Philippians 3:9 should be worded as they are, but it must be checked out.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

ChristisGod · Sep 12, 2020

charity said:
As I have said, @Christophany, I will check this out with the original wording, and compare Scripture with Scripture to arrive at the truth. There may be no reason why Galatians 2:20, Galatians 2:16 and Philippians 3:9 should be worded as they are, but it must be checked out.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Agree you should study it and come to your own conclusions and not take another's word for it like a good Berean !

BarneyFife · Sep 12, 2020

Christophany said:
Did Jesus have Faith ?

1-Jesus used the word pistis or its derivatives a total of 41 times. Look it up in your concordance if you own one.
2- Every time Jesus used the word He was talking about someone else’s faith and not “ His Faith “
3- Jesus never used the faith in the first person referring to His “ Faith “.
4- No book in the entire NT ever refers to “ Jesus Faith “
5- Jesus is always the object of Faith never the recipient of faith
6- All the Apostles refers to their own faith in Christ .
7- Saving Faith is in Christ alone
8- God has no need for Faith
9- The Savior has no need for faith since He is not a sinner and He is God
10- Faith is needed for sinners alone and not the Holy Son of God who was / is Impeccable

Faith is the belief in things unseen. Remember the words of the Author of Hebrews: “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen” (11:1).

hope this helps !!!

He alone has faith. Everything belongs to Him. We only have stewardship of a small portion.

ChristisGod · Sep 12, 2020

BarnyFife said:
He alone has faith. Everything belongs to Him. We only have stewardship of a small portion.

So would you also say the Father has faith ?

BarneyFife · Sep 12, 2020

Christophany said:
So would you also say the Father has faith ?

It Is Written: He and His Father are one.

ChristisGod · Sep 12, 2020

BarnyFife said:
It Is Written: He and His Father are one.

So I take that as a yes, thanks !

charity · Sep 12, 2020

'I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live;
yet not I, but Christ liveth in me:
and the life which I now live in the flesh
I live by the faith of the Son of God,
Who loved me, and gave Himself for me.'
(Gal 2:20)

'We who are Jews by nature,
and not sinners of the Gentiles,
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law,
but by the faith of Jesus Christ,
even we have believed in Jesus Christ,
that we might be justified by the faith of Christ,
and not by the works of the law:
for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.'
(Gal 2:16)

'And be found in Him,
not having mine own righteousness,
which is of the law,
but that which is through the faith of Christ,
the righteousness which is of God by faith:'
(Php 3:9)

Hello @Christophany,

I have to leave these verses as they stand, and praise God for their wording: for I am not in a position to take up this study at the moment. Yet I believe this wording is of God, and intended for us to sit up and consider. There is more to this than meets the eye, and not to be dismissed out of hand as being merely a difference of interpretation. We are saved not only by Christ's death, but by His resurrection life. We have died with Christ, been buried with Christ, quickened and raised with Christ, and have ascended with Him to God's right hand - by God's reckoning. This is a reckoning of faith, for it is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things unseen. God in His foreknowledge knows the end from the beginning, He knows what shall be, as well as what is, so can reckon it so.

Our faith is in Christ as the One who died in our place, bearing our reproach, and suffering sin's penalty, but we are saved by His life, His resurrection life. For now we, in Him, walk before the Father in newness of life, for having died to sin we now live unto God.

This is the outpouring of my own understanding, and is therefore flawed, but please do not dismiss these verses, and their wording in the KJV, for it is the faith of Christ that keeps us, it is an ongoing work of advocacy before the Father.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

john t · Sep 12, 2020

CadyandZoe said:
I will never cease to point out when people affirm goofy ideas, not because they are true, but because those who ostensibly affirm goofy ideas do business with them in order to seek glory from men.

And I shall never cease to identify logical errors such are in many of your posts. Primary among them is inconsistency coupled with a blind refusal to take me at my word.

On your own authority you mislabel as "goofy" two of the findings of the Fourth and Fifth Ecumenical Councils and do not take the time to examine them sufficiently to make an accurate evaluation. That is simply empty, inaccurate pontification bordering on foolishness.

I can say that because according to the first sentence above in what I quoted from you, you clearly state that truth is irrelevant. Your subjective and irrational non-educated evaluation supersedes truth, and that crosses the border line from logical thinking landing firmly in the far territory of foolishness.

Scripture forbids me to answer such folly.

Proverbs 26:
4 Answer not a fool according to his folly,
lest you be like him yourself.

5 Answer a fool according to his folly,
lest he be wise in his own eyes.

6 Whoever sends a message by the hand of a fool
cuts off his own feet and drinks violence.

7 Like a lame man's legs, which hang useless,
is a proverb in the mouth of fools.

8 Like one who binds the stone in the sling
is one who gives honor to a fool.

9 Like a thorn that goes up into the hand of a drunkard
is a proverb in the mouth of fools.

10 Like an archer who wounds everyone
is one who hires a passing fool or drunkard.

11 Like a dog that returns to his vomit
is a fool who repeats his folly.

12 Do you see a man who is wise in his own eyes?
There is more hope for a fool than for him.

BarneyFife · Sep 12, 2020

john t said:
That post of yours is utter nonsense, as are these, your quotes:

You seem not to understand what you post about, or else you would not have contradicted yourself when in one sentence, you say I believe in the hypostatic union, but in the second you say I do not. Why is that?

To quote the philosopher Shania Twain, "That don't impress me much."

Then you are NOT arguing against me. Jesus CAUSED the Scriptures to be written as they were. What is so hard for you to understand about that? since He is the Author of Scripture, Jesus believed what he wrote. To believe differently is simply nonsense

It is all nonsense because it is 100% games playing. You attribute an unsourced "some Christians" who do not believe in the hypostatic. for it was not an ambiguous "Greek students" who coined the term it was the combination of two Ecumenical Councils. In 451, the Fourth Ecumenical Council in Chalcedon stated that Jesus Christ had two natures the first being fully God, the second being fully human. Chalcedon was to the date the biggest, and most documented of the Ecumenical Councils.

Erroneously, you call those learned men who were scholars in the church and taught in the "universities" or graduate schools of the day "students of Greek philosophy". How banal!

Obviously, you do know know that the entire New Testament was written in Koinie Greek.

The Fifth Ecumenical Council in 533 was also the second Ecumenical Council held in Constantinople. One of the outcomes from that was they gave name to the two natures of Jesus defined in the previous Ecumenical Council. ὑπόστασις hypóstasis, ""sediment, foundation, substance, subsistence") is a technical term in Christian theology employed in mainstream Christology to describe the union of Christ's humanity and divinity in one hypostasis, or individual existence.

So I suggest that you cease from your erroneous pontificating because others who have studied things like that in depth may be more direct than I have been in exposing areas in which you make up your own "facts".

Still winning friends and influencing people, are we?

Did Jesus have faith ?

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