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  1. Copperhead

    Luke 14:15-24 Rapture Before Great Tribulation

    But it also depends on what judgement we are talking about, right? The one of Revelation 20 is not of any concern to those in Messiah. That is the judgement of life or death. And that one is indeed at the end of the Millennial age. The following is the Bema seat judgement for which we are...
  2. Copperhead

    Luke 14:15-24 Rapture Before Great Tribulation

    The Evil Day can be broadly interpreted. Is what the N. Korean brothers and sisters going thru the “evil day” for them? How about the purges of Nero or the Inquisition? I would think so. And we can’t make an assumption that it only refers to the 70th week of Daniel alone without other...
  3. Copperhead

    Luke 14:15-24 Rapture Before Great Tribulation

    Surely not the Great Tribulation, unless you think that the Lord is Evil. Do you not read that it is the wrath of God? Isaiah says the Lord is coming out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth. So has that now become evil?
  4. Copperhead

    Luke 14:15-24 Rapture Before Great Tribulation

    Not sure what you mean. I believe in a pre-trib removal of the righteous and I don't reject those verses. The "they" in V30, I believe, is those who remain to the end during the events of the Tribulation period. That doesn't mean that there wasn't a removal of the righteous before that...
  5. Copperhead

    California gets goahead to seek secession

    Well, Jefferson and Madison, writers of the Declaration of Independence and the U.S. Constitution respectively, felt that if the created Federal Government became too over powering, that a state could leave the union if it so desired. The only example of it happening resulted in a war between...
  6. Copperhead

    Luke 14:15-24 Rapture Before Great Tribulation

    I am pretty confident I have a grasp on who He was referring to.
  7. Copperhead

    Luke 14:15-24 Rapture Before Great Tribulation

    I can grasp the concept of His Elect. But which elect were you referring to? The church, AKA the elect bride of Messiah? Or the elect, Jacob AKA Israel? My mind is not twisted or screwed up, unless you talk to my wife! But again, when Yeshua was referencing the elect in Matthew, we (in the...
  8. Copperhead

    Luke 14:15-24 Rapture Before Great Tribulation

    I was going with your roll until this one. Yeshua did say what you are asserting, that if it were possible, even the elect would be deceived. The neat thing in that statement that I think gets missed by some is the "if it were possible". That is a positive statement! The implication is that...
  9. Copperhead

    Luke 14:15-24 Rapture Before Great Tribulation

    But what is it about leaven that makes it a almost perfect idiom for sin and corruption? It is that leaven expands and causes dough to rise. Pride, which is the basis of most sin and corruption does the same thing... it puffs up. It was the one major thing in why Satan fell.
  10. Copperhead

    Luke 14:15-24 Rapture Before Great Tribulation

    We have to rely on a hermeneutic principle of Law of First Mention. That the Holy Spirit tends to use idioms in similar fashion throughout scripture. And leaven has always had a negative connotation and symbolic of sin or corruption. Matthew 16:6 (NKJV) Then Jesus said to them, “Take heed and...
  11. Copperhead

    Luke 14:15-24 Rapture Before Great Tribulation

    I did not declare the the kingdom of heaven is sin or that it will be sin forever. I did state that the Messianic Kingdom here on earth would be infected and eventually permeated with sin that would eventually grow throughout the kingdom (like leaven permeates a loaf) with the final rebellion...
  12. Copperhead

    Luke 14:15-24 Rapture Before Great Tribulation

    Of course, that is assuming the only “elect” is the Church. Isaiah says that Israel is also God’s elect. Isaiah 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. Being elect is not the same as...
  13. Copperhead

    Luke 14:15-24 Rapture Before Great Tribulation

    You miss the point. It is the Messianic Kingdom of the future that will have sin eventually permeated thru it. That is why Satan when he is released in Revelation 12 (emphasized in Psalms 2) is able to foment a world wide rebellion against Yeshua one last time.
  14. Copperhead

    Luke 14:15-24 Rapture Before Great Tribulation

    Irenaeus (2nd century who was associated with Polycarp, who was a disciple of the Apostle John) was pretty clear in one part of his writings (probably his profound "Against Heresies" treatise) where he wrote (and I am paraphrasing because I don't have it lying in front of me now), "those who do...
  15. Copperhead

    2. Israel in the End Times

    It is very true that one is not saved without the Son. But that doesn't negate that the Hebrew people are elect or chosen. Isaiah said that Israel is God's elect. It is not because of anything they or anyone else decides, it is God's promises of the land to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel)...
  16. Copperhead

    Luke 14:15-24 Rapture Before Great Tribulation

    I realize it is a common mantra that the pre-trib thing was started in the 19th century, but that really isn't the case. It was indeed popularized in the 19th which came from a "return to the Bible and teaching verse by verse" concept that took hold after the reformation, but has roots going...
  17. Copperhead

    Luke 14:15-24 Rapture Before Great Tribulation

    Well true enough, harpazo is in the Greek. But the Latin translation of the Greek is Rapimier/raptus/rapturo, which is where we get our English transliterated word, Rapture. Rapture/caught up is a different action that resurrected or changed (like believers who are alive when caught up). It...
  18. Copperhead

    Luke 14:15-24 Rapture Before Great Tribulation

    Nothing in Matt 24 directly mentions the removal of the righteous, but it does indirectly. Matthew 24:7-9 (NASB) For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. 8 But all these things are merely the beginning of...
  19. Copperhead

    Luke 14:15-24 Rapture Before Great Tribulation

    Well, according to Iranaeus and many other early Christian writers who actually knew the Apostles or disciples of the Apostles say you are wrong. Now, in the 21st century, we only have speculation on our part about these things, but to categorically say they were not raptured says that those...
  20. Copperhead

    Luke 14:15-24 Rapture Before Great Tribulation

    I did not imply anything. The text itself said that Elijah was caught up to heaven. The text did not imply either. It stated it categorically as fact. No ambiguity. 2 Kings 2:11 (ISV) As they continued on, talking as they went, suddenly chariots blazing with fire and pulled by fiery horses...