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Agreed. But that does not mean they are no longer Christians, even though they may think for a time they are not. And if they are actually not, then they never were, even though they may have thought they were for... forty years, which is exactly what John is saying in 1 John 2:19... "(t)hey...

Continued from above... Absolutely. Yes, I see. I was blind, but now I see. See what I did there? <smile> Philippians 1:6. Yes, absolutely. But if this person is born again, he or she will not really lose his or her faith and go back into the world ~ though it may seem like it to him or...

Yes, but while unfortunate, this is irrelevant to me and you, right? Sure they are. Absolutely. Okay, not sure what you mean here; this too is irrelevant as it concerns this conversation between me and you. Sure. It's God's Word. All of it is important (to say the least). It is all...

The water baptism in churches is not equivalent to being born again of water and the Spirit (John 3:5). John himself said, "I baptize with water, but among you stands One you do not know, even He Who comes after me, the strap of Whose sandal I am not worthy to untie... He who sent me to baptize...

Absolutely. Absolutely not. The only reason I might "leave it out" is that it's a given, central to the Christian faith. I do think, though, that there are a few Nicodemuses on this board, and that's unfortunate. But yes, Jesus did say, "unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot...

Uh oh... <smile> Certainly, so wheat and tares alike... Well, yes, Jesus paid the wages of sin (death) on our behalf, and thus it is ~ and will be ~ as if we have not sinned, because Jesus's righteousness has been imputed to us and covers us now and in the final Judgment at the end of the...

What are you even talking about here, GB? LOL! Leaving the separating of the tares from the wheat to the Lord has nothing to do with us stopping societal violence and atrocities ~ and preserving life ~ when possible. Goodness gracious. Allowing the wheat and the tares to grow together is not...

The key is that little word 'in.' You and he, even by saying "in His kingdom," mean it in two very different senses. And, I think if you were to understand what he means by "in the kingdom," you would go, "Oh, well yeah." And the same is true if he understood the sense in which you are saying...

Dude. Any member of a particular church can fall under church discipline and possibly be excommunicated for various reasons. Yeah, we're talking about two different things now. Yes, to what you say here, but any member of a church can be excommunicated if the situation calls for that, meaning...

Fair enough. <chuckles> Okay, well I said or insinuated no such thing, and in fact quite the opposite. Right, which I acknowledged, but they may not remain so; they may be made children of the one true God. I think you are just missing each other, as I said. And here we go again, I guess...

Ugh. <smile> Well, I would take some issue ~ along the lines of what we have just discussed ~ that church A can't know for sure if people are "tares" or not, or, even if they are, will remain such. Faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ (Romans 10:13), so I would...

Right... Yes, if they remain tares. And about that "throwing into the fire..." <smile> Right... And really, we don't know exactly who has been saved, either, in that we can't see the heart; only God can do that. Except for ourselves... this is what faith is... God's assurance, and the...

Hmmm, well, you can, but I wouldn't... <smile> Hebrews 11 says otherwise, that all Christians are saved the same way, regardless of when it actually occured for any of them/us... We are all lost from the beginning, GB. But for some, they are found. You've sung Amazing Grace before, no? "I...

Seems to me you're over-analyzing things a bit, GB. :) Yes, they think they have all they need... Remember, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he (or she) cannot enter the Kingdom of God (John 3:5). So really, they don't even know it exists. They are of this world. And their...

Fair enough. But it does seem to be what you are saying. Which is literally what I just said. LOL! Well, two things directly opposing each other cannot both be true at the same time, yes. But this is... literally... not what I just said. So, in the Kingdom... the word 'in' there can be...

The funny thing to me is, GB, that you and SI seem to be agreeing but are just totally missing each other, like two ships passing in the night... So to what you say here about Matthew 13:38, which SI cited previously, you're right; the two key words there are 'in' and 'of.' So yes, the "tares"...

Disagree. Here is what Paul says, quoting from Isaiah 45 and Ezekiel 18 in doing so: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God.... There is no fear of God before their eyes... all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God..." (Romans 3:10-18, 23) This is...

LOL! Right back atcha, NTR. <smile> Grace and peace to you.

There is no torture." There is torment, though, for all eternity, in this place of "outer darkness" (Matthew 8:12), "weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 13:50, so this torment is in and of themselves, a consuming, internal sadness and anguish that will not be relieved, so in that way "their...