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I think that Hebrews teaches Christ had to be one of us, to share in our "infirmity", in order to represent us as High Priest. Jesus was saving us from the "bondage of sin and death". Mankind was under this bondage, this curse. To be "one of us" Christ had to suffer under the same powers that...

You are being inconstant. I am saying Christ had to die because Christ had to bear my sin and become a curse for us. You are moving this into a "law court" type of mentality (Calvin was, after all, a lawyer so this makes sense). It is contradictory to claim that Christ died instead of us...

Steve, The "classic view" holds that Christ had to suffer and die by submitting in obedience to God to the powers of sin and death. What this accomplished was a recommendation between God and the humanity in Christ. Under Penal Substitution Theory there is no reason for Christ's death (His...

Another issue with Penal Substitution Theory is that it does NOT necessitate Christ's death (physical death and suffering). The "classic view" of the atonement holds that Christ had to die because Jesus had to suffer under the curse, be made a curse for us, and share our suffering under the...

What makes Penal Substitution Theory a heresy is not the fact it is a theory foreign to actual Scripture (from the biblical text) but the Truth the theory obscures. There is a reason Christ was delivered by the Jews to suffer and die at the hands of wicked men.

I like the post. I can not agree with "instead of us" because we do experience the same death. I view it as Christ delivering us through death (and from the powers of sin and death). I would argue that Christ did not experience a death which is uncommon to man. The difference is that He is God...

I do not understand why you find the passage insufficient. Christ had to become a curse for us, to be made sin, in order to free us from the bondage of sin and death (the "second Adam"). He had to be man in all ways yet without sin. Why do you believe Jesus had to be punished instead of us...

Sin entered the world through one man and death through sin. Death spread to all people because all sinned. Death reigned from Adam until Moses even over those who did not sin in the same way that Adam (who is a type of the coming one) transgressed. But the gracious gift is not like the...

The reference is from Martyr. It is not Penal Substitution Theory because it does not hold that God punished Jesus instead of punishing us. Based on writings no one before the Reformation taught that God punished Jesus instead of punishing us.

It is difficult (but simple).. Mankind was under the curse, in bondage to sin and death. Christ had to suffer under the curse, become a curse for the "human family". The Father vindicated Christ and He became a life giving Spirit. If you can read Scripture without adding Penal Substitution...

It took me awhile as well. When I realized my view (Penal Substitution Theory) was not actually in the Bible I struggled to read Scripture apart from it. I knew that thought history Christians believed Christ had to die while rejecting the Theory. But shaking off the tradition I grew up with...

In a way, yes. Which is the point (Christ IS this Life). His condemnation was evil and He was vindicated, becoming the Firstborn of many brethren.

The issue is you (and @Steve Owen and @David Taylor) are the only ones who attribute the finished work of Christ to a theory. Everyone else here seems to see it as the work of God in redemption as proclaimed in Scripture.

Only in that Christ is the "second Adam".

This is a lie (and deliberate dishonesty beneath a Christian, much less a "pastor"). This highlights the problem of indoctrination and why, in my opinion, David is not qualified to be a pastor. Our churches place people in positions far too early. I have not rejected Scripture but instead have...

I know a lot of my presuppositions and have mentioned them here. We have to be able to know our influences. You do not.

I agree. The issue, however, is that we have to be able to explain how we arrive at our conclusions and interpretation. We should also be able distinguish between God's Word and our understanding. There are many who hold Penal Substitution Theory and can explain the philosophies and reasoning...

@marks , Are you familiar with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus and Recapitulation (not that I hold Recapitulation Theory but concerning the reason Christ had to die)? I believe that Christ had to die in terms of becoming the "second Adam". Martyr and Irenaeus (more direct with Irenaeus) would...

No one is rejecting that God is both just and the justifier of sinners. I do not care about your hermeneutics because I believe your method flawed (we all have to decide our standards here). I agree that you gave me a lot of verses. The problem is that you have not provided any that prove or...

You are confused. I am not asking that the words "Penal Substitution Theory" appear in Scripture. I am asking for verses stating the elements of the theory. I am asking for a verse that states Adam died spiritually. I am asking for a verse that states God poured His wrath upon Christ. I am...