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Red Herring. I never said "being spiritually dead" is extra-biblical. I said the idea of dying spiritually is extra-biblical. Spiritual life is eternal life.

I believe we were dead in our trespass and sins. And I believe this points to being spiritually dead. But I do not believe men are spiritually alive, spiritually due when we sin, and need to be made spiritually alive again. This includes Adam.

I believe spiritual life is Christ. I think this is why Paul speaks of "not I but Christ in me". What I believe is that Adam was created with the need of a Savior, that need not realized or expressed until he transgressed God's command. The transgression demonstrated Adam as having a human...

I also believe Adam was created "good", and "upright". But I also believe Adam was created with a standing that was less than God. I believe we are born the same. Do you believe Adam was created with spiritual life and when he sinned he died spiritually?

I am sticking with Scripture. The Bible never speaks of anyone dying a spiritual death. Not Adam. Not Jesus. Not the lost. No one. The concept itself is extra-biblical. I have no interest in your "old wives tales", superstitions, and myths. The best evidence against Penal Substitution Theory is...

Because there is no evidence in Scripture thus death was spiritual. That and Scripture describes the Judgment as Christ-centered (something Penal Substitution Theory rejects). Scripture does not even state that those who suffer the "second death" are made spiritually so they can die...

suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution b: a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure Your idea the Cross was retribution is wrong. The idea it was a penalty influcted through a judicial procedure is wrong.

We actually do not know that Adam was not destined to die. That line of thinking is like believing Adam was created asexual as this was before God determined to create woman as a helper. I believe Adam was created as we are. He was created short of God's standard. This became evident when he...

I guess in a way you could say my friend was representing his country. Regardless, Jesus did not suffer and die instead of us but for us. That is the language Scripture uses (not "instead" but "for"). The difference is the distinction between "substitute" and "because".

He was suffering the consequences of sin, the "penalty" of being human. Not a punishment. A penalty is a "disadvantage, loss, or hardship due to some action". The origin of "penalty" is "pain". It does not mean punishment.

Generally when I refer to being under a "curse" what I mean is under the bondage of sin and death.

LOL.... No. His life for us (not instead of us). A "purchase" or "redemption". I had a friend who was killed in Bosnia. He died for his country, not instead of his country.

Peter's sermon in Acts 2 says that those men put Christ to death. It is true that Jesus lay down His life, but this was not suicide.

When I was typing that response I was thinking of Galatians 3:13; Romans 5:12-21; and Romans 8:18.

The few that I have seen (actually, this was when I held the Theory) claimed that Penal Substitution Theory was a flawed philosophy and projected this on Scripture. Those who left Penal Substitution Theory in favor of turning either "to Scripture" or adopting at least one position within the...

No problem. It required His blood to purchase because this is the curse mankind was under. The wages of sin is death.

Hey Marks, What I hold is the "classic view", and others have articulated it much more better :D than I. The ECF's did disagree, but at the same time there was a common idea of the atonement throughout all of their individual theories. That said, "redeemed" means that we were purchased. We...

No one took the lives of many martyr's away except that they lay down their lives for Christ. Many died voluntarily in obedience to God. The issue is Penal Substitution Theory does not necessitate Christ's physical death and suffering at all. It necessitates only what it thinks is associated...

What verse are you referencing that speaks of men dying spiritually? Do you believe that the punishment for sin includes physical death?

I never try to change people's understanding or view. I do, however, try to direct people to Scripture. I am pretty much anti-Penal Substitution Theory, through. The reason is that I have seen it cause damage in the lives of people. I've seen it cause people to stumble as they see...