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Close but no cigar (you came in a bit too late) Acts 2:23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. It was by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God that the Jews killed Jesus by...

Where do you get this definition?

LOL..... "God was punishing sinful acts and Jesus just got in the way." :rolleyes: The problem is that sin cannot be punished. Sinners can, but not sin (by definition). We can punish a thief and we say we punished the crime, but really we punished the criminal. God will not acquit the guilty...

Scripture states that Christ was wounded for our transgressions. But you add "instead of us" and claim that this is "punishment". The issue is not Scripture or what it obviously states. The issue is these little additions you slip in (perhaps without even realizing it) to change the meaning to...

@David Taylor Stop being dishonest. Look at your posts. You offer a verse and then give us your interpretation. When asked how you get there you say the words can carry the meaning and you believe your theory is the context. But you NEVER actually defend your interpretation.

That is not the context. The context is Christ suffered and by His suffering we are saved (He was pierced for out transgressions). You say this is God punishing Jesus I stead of punishing us but as it stands this is merely an opinion you hold yet can't (or won't) defend.

No. I do not have a superiority complex. I have an inferiority complex. But I do believe Scripture is superior to your theory. That is why you may have confused the issue. We cannot have an honest debate because you refuse to explain how you get from Scripture to your interpretation (I...

Why do you believe "pierced for our transgressions" means "punished by God for our transgressions"?

@David Taylor and @Enoch111, I discusd things with you like I do with Mormons on this board. I disagree with your religion but I am genuinely interested in how you come about your ideas. I am not trying to change your mind but instead am asking how you get from Scripture to your theories. I...

We have already established that "chastisement" does not necessitate "punishment" but it can. I already granted the Hebrew word can mean "punishment" and in fact said of the 2 times it is translated as "punishment" one instance is probably necessary. This does not change the fact that out of...

True. I was thinking the "armor of God" but that is not self defence (it is clothing ourself in truth and standing) . That was not the best word choice on my part.

I have learned that all we can (and should) do is defend ourselves against evil while standing the truth. The World will accept any Christ that meets their expectations and fits in their theories. But they will always reject the truth of God's Word because to them it is foolishness.

I've found many here are unable to defend their belief and simply "double down" and fight rather than explaining how they have interpreted any passage as they truly do not know. This is the danger of indoctrination. These guys have found one of the simplest (and probably most humanistic)...

No. Your appeal is to your own theory. You hold a fairly new and minority view in opposition to the "classic view" and claim your view is the only and obvious possible conclusion of the text. I never claimed it is only the Reformed camp that claims this meaning (that is a lie on your part). I...

I can offer two off hand that disagrees (Strongs and Mounce, as I referenced already). You have not yet offered any reference that states מוּסָר to be defined as "punishment".

This is a cop out (and most likely a veiled admission you cannot defend your theory). Most Christians have not held Penal Substitution Theory (either today or historically). Most evangelical Protestants do, but you are not on an evangelical Protestant forum so you are in a minority not only...

Yes. I provided the merriam Webster definition already. As I noted, the English word can mean many things to include "punishment" (I even granted the Hebrew word can mean punishment as there are two instances where this is possible and one where it is probable). I know you don't believe...

I strongly advise you not to hold your breath, Steve. I learned the dangers of such things when I held mine anticipating your defense of Penal Substitution Theory only to get a list of verses we both affirm accompanied by your conclusions. What I was asking for was how you arrived at your...

Christianity is very much illiterate when it comes to Scripture. The sin of it is this is a willful ignorance because having Scripture we, as a whole, prefer theory and tradition. I think this is how we have become as a society (no one reads literature, like Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness...

@Enoch111 has complained about my method of looking at one verse claimed to support Penal Substitution Theory at a time (Penal Substitution Theory and the presupposed (eisegesis) definition of מוּסָר in Isaiah 53:5, post #2) but I think that this is necessary as we cannot simply make a claim and...