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No, I didn't flip them off. You can't just post OT verses that sound great about Israel without taking into consideration what the NT says about Israel, the old covenant and promises. You objected to my saying this: "Two problems with these verses: they either talk about the promise of Israel's...

Really? I can't decide if you really think that or if you're just trying to convince me of it. Sadly, I have to inform you, that you haven't.

No Christians? But what about those who come to faith after the Rapture? These believers who you call "Tribulation Saints"? Those that, for some reason, are found, in the eyes of God, worthy to suffer his wrath, where as, according to your doctrines, he would not pour it out on any other...

I don't...I think such a thing is not found in scripture and should not be. The whole idea of reverting to a stone structure and animal sacrifices in the 'millennium' is a slap in the face of Christ's own work on the cross. It makes a mockery of everything he achieved. He himself gave us the way...

Really? Don't you think that this is just knit-picking at this point? An echo is an extention of a real sound. A shadow is an extension of a real shape. Neither can do anything by themselves. And is so very obviously not the point in the conversation. :rolleyes: Where have I done that? Yes...

Two problems with these verses: they either talk about the promise of Israel's redemption (and not the particular method), or they talk about the land promise in place of redemption, which the NT resoundingly makes clear is passed on to Christ, and through him, to all 'children of promise' who...

No, your opinion has been given. The biblical backing for said opinion has yet to make an appearance....

But if the NT tells us that OT people were saved by faith, just as NT people are, in point of fact, then how is it different? The difference the new covenant makes is that now we know what we have faith in, and those in the OT didn't, but Paul is quite clear...those in the OT were saved by...

I think we must see this verse as it really is: "some have professed and in so doing have departed from the faith." All of those nominal Christians, those who cry 'Lord, Lord' at the end, will tell you even now that they believe, that they are Christians. They profess to the faith. They might...

Really? That such suffering will possibly be world wide? That's about as wide as it can get, I believe. And am I underestimating the suffering of Christian martyrs that have already been...that currently are? There are only so many ways you can kill and torment a human person...prolonging their...

Model: a three-dimensional representation of a person or thing or of a proposed structure, typically on a smaller scale than the original. "a model of St Paul's Cathedral" synonyms: replica, copy, representation, mock-up, dummy, imitation, double, duplicate, lookalike, reproduction...

I fail to see your point. My point was: there IS no difference between people coming to Christ today, and people coming to Christ 'then'. You yourself have just admitted it. And if there is no difference, then by definition we are all part of the Church, the body of Christ. This distinction...

No. Sorry. That's what your doctrine says. But it is not what scripture says. If Scripture said that, you would have provided biblical proof by now. You have't, therefore you can't. The bible is clear on the matter. To come to God you have to come to Christ. He is the only way to be in a right...

No...it absolutely takes it into account. Who preached the first sermon on Pentecost? Let's call him the first Pastor. Peter. A Jew. Who were the first listeners who converted? The bible lists them as "Jews, devout men dwelling in Jerusalem, from every nation under heaven". The Apostles became...

Although this touches upon subjects we have been over many times before, your initial point does not. I would question, greatly, the wisdom behind anyone claiming persecution and tribulation could get any worse for some of our brothers and sisters out there in the world...either now or over the...

I'm not sure how it can be wrong, per se, although I dare say it's not a complete description. If something here echos heavenly realities, does that not mean it parallels such things? It is the replicate, the imitation of the original. How is that different than it being a model, which is just a...

I don't dispute this. But HOW are these Jews going to be bought to God once the "fullness of the Gentiles" is bought in? Because, if the answer (as it must be), is that they are bought to Christ...made part of his body by believing in his sacrifice for their sins...then they are becoming part of...

So...I see Christ saying this: My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the...

I suggest it may have been the other way around. We see things here on earth echoing heavenly realitites and truths, not the other way around. Wouldn't you agree?

Well...neither do I...as I see the GT, that is being spoken of in Matt 24, as clearly foretelling the destructionof Jerusalem in 70AD!