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No, John doesn't directly say someone received the mark and later repented. But indirectly, Rev 16:8-9 points that way — you said it yourself: repentance is still possible at this point, except John sees that they never repent. And they repented not to give him glory. Not "couldn't." Repented...

The grammar is clear even if we don't like what it says. All means all. That single word is one of the main keys to understanding what the mark actually is. If "all" lined up with what you already think the mark is, you'd have no problem making the argument that all means all. I get it, it's...

The key piece of evidence in this account is that everybody gets the mark - no exceptions, whether by deception or by choice. How a believer recovers from that is a separate issue.

I understand, Davy. I come from a dispensationalist background, but I left that many years ago, so this one we simply disagree.

The Bible says the beast causes all to take his mark doesn’t it?

Clouds are easy and not up to interpretation. It’s either literal clouds and we know it’s not because Revelation says it’s given in signs. There’s only one other type of clouds in the Bible. Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay...

Sure bring it on :csm

William, I read those verses as being fulfilled at that time. Can you explain what in those verses makes you think it's not? What am I missing?

William, look at v.14 right before that quote: "Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name." Then James says "to this agree the words of the prophets" and cites Amos on rebuilding David's tabernacle. That's James saying the...

Like I said it’s circumstantial evidence and it can’t be proven. You say not applicable based on your Bible reading experiences and I say highly likely based on my Bible reading experiences.

Like most hidden truths in Scripture it can't be proven outright because the verdict is based circumstantial evidence. My guess: the disciples.

Is that for me or Crow?

True but the Bible says that blindness in part has happened until the times of the gentiles are over. I realize most people thinks that means god turns back to the Jews at that time for mass Jewish salvation at the end of time but I think the fulness of the gentiles means when God was done using...

I’m pretty sure that horse was the donkey Jesus rode in on Palm Sunday when He went forth to conquer at the cross.

Well I disagree on the spirit of slumber on the majority of Jews right now. I believe the partial blindness ended with the generation that rejected Jesus as messiah when he walked the streets with him.

I agree they need God’s grace to be saved but what I’m saying is that unbelievers are not under the covenant of grace which means that if they stay that way they will be judged by the law.

I hear you on the Ferrari illustration, but I'd put it simpler: the Law is for the lost, grace is for the saved. Paul says as much directly: "the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners" (1 Tim 1:9).

@Grailhunter So if Abraham was saved by grace through faith, and we are too, the Law was never the mechanism of salvation for anybody. Paul says why it showed up when it did: "the covenant... which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of...

Was Abraham saved by grace through faith? Are you and I? The answer is yes to both. That’s why I said Christianity under a different name but it’s still Christianity isn’t it?

Yes it was a negative comment about Israel and it still applies to people of today so that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.