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Hi Mark, Your words: "Considering that both gatherings occur when Jesus returns in glory, and considering that both gatherings contain the saved - the sheep are specifically called "righteous", you've got believers included in the nations." Pre-wrath believes the rapture and the gathering you...

Hi Kaotic, I’m beginning to understand your profile name. You see chaos in everything, however, I can answer all your questions but it will be a lengthy post. Your words: So there's a contradiction in God's Word then. The rapture occurs at the last trump , which you guys say isn't the last...

Hi Mark, Matt. 24:22 speaks of the "elect" which I'm assuming you mean by chosen. 1Peter. 1:1-2 (NIV)defines them for us: "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen...

My theology doesn't need to have anything "change" to 'fit it". After decades of study, Pre-wrath is the most logical, scriptural view based on "all" the scriptures of what has been revealed up to this time. It flows smoothly with no cramming or changing of scripture and makes absolute perfect...

Hi Saint, Prophetically speaking, National Israel, made of the end-time believing remnant, has a future earthly destiny to re-populate the earth (along with some gentiles) and to act as His priests (the 144,000+) during the millennium. The church (spiritual Israel) has a heavenly destiny...

kaotic. "We" are pre-wrathers. There is very little scriptural support for the "7th trump" to be the last trump of 1 Cor. 15. Mark, You are correct in your clarification of Matt. 24:22 but, imo, God isn't concerned that "no flesh" survive. He is only concerned with His elect in this verse, only...

There are at least 45 that I'm aware of.

Hi Rocky, Why would you assume there is any ill will? Christians can disagree without becoming disagreeable. I'm just suggesting maybe a little more study might be needed. About 25 yrs. ago I was an avid pre-tribber and could "debate" from the pre-trib point of view as well as anyone, however...

Hi kaotic, I agree with teleosis that the 7th trump isn't the last trump of 1 Cor. 15. We believe the "last trump" is blown by God, not an angel to fulfill the prophecy of Zech. 9:14 - "And the Lord shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord God shall...

Hi Mark, There is no verse that calls for a 7 yr. or 3.5 yr. tribulation. The great trib according to pre-wrath theory is satan's wrath against the church per Rev. 12:17 and will end an undetermined time later with the rapture at the 7th seal. We believe it begins right after the abomination of...

Kaotic, I'm a little confused. Your words:"The last day is the time period at the end of tribulation that it takes our Lord to accomplish the removal of the elect, judgment and reward of the righteous, judgment of the nations, the separation of the sheep and goats, to do battle, and the marriage...

Hi Rocky, Than we're left with two choices. Either God is a liar or your understanding is in error. The fact is, there are several prophecies in both the old and new testaments that haven't been fulfilled. No, God doesn't necessarily speak to us on our level. Even when Jesus taught in parables...

If you're coming from Jer. 25:11 than the servitude began when Babylon defeated Assyria and took over the area of Jerusalem in 609 BC. They completed their take over in 605 BC when they defeated the remnants of the Egyptian forces at their southern front. At that time, the first of the captives...

Hi Rocky, It's a matter of perspective. If we believe that a 1000 yrs. are as a day to God, in the spiritual realm, than for all intents and purposes, Christ has been "gone" a little over two days. "Soon" is a relative term. Even by our standards, if we believe we will live eternally, multiple...

I'll debate this with you if you don't go off into lengthy unrelated tangents. Let's just start simply. Give me the scriptural prophecies, chapter and verse that foretold the 70 year "captivity" that you are proclaiming wasn't fulfilled properly.

Hi Rocky, I agreed with most of what you said until you asked this question: If this is what prompted the question, how can we be still be taught that Jesus has not come and we are still waiting? This is where preterism separates itself from mainstream eschatology. These are three separate...

Hi Vet, We continue to disagree on this issue: In Rev.17:15, the "waters" our Lord Jesus defined there applies to that beast that comes up out of the "sea" per Rev.13:1, a world beast kingdom over all nations and peoples upon the earth. You see it as enboldened and I see it as written. The...

Thanks vet for finally agreeing with me on something <_< :D What gets me is how people can read verses like Matt. 24:24 - "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." and...

Hi Vet, Your words: A symbol is nothing more than figurative language. Look at the symbols on international signs. A tent looking shape used to mean shelter is near; today it's an international symbol for a camp area." A symbol and "symbolism" are two different things in my opinion. Your...

Hi Vet, Good post and I agree with most of it except for one small but important typo. Your words:Altogether, the 70 weeks total up to 532 years, each week = one seven. Actually they come to 490 years. 70 x 7 = 490.