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WPM quired: <So Enoch and Elisha are Christians> They deserve that title far more than I do, they gave their lives. <What do to you mean "perphaps"> I mean the text does not directly specify. <where is battlefield Middle East specified> Jerusalem in the Middle East is God's chosen city...

IMO: The rapture of the church includes all believers, living and dead. In fact the dead are raised first (1Thessalonians 14:16-17): For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a cry of comnand, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ...

WPM noted: "last trump" "Last trumpet" (last of seven, last before the rapture) is noted in 1Corinthuans 15:51-52). The judgments are described as elements of a coming war: Scroll = documented sins of our sinful race (including me). Trumpet = signal to attack (no radios back then). Bowl =...

WPM noted: <chronological> This has the etymology: χρονος = time λογος = reckoning i.e. "reckoning according to time." I would say the beginnings of the judgments are chronological, and their effects overlap. It's not good. This is punishment of people, angels, cherubim for their flagrant...

Three series of judgments, poetically named as: o. Trumpets = listen up, announcement! o. Scrolls = list of accusations against a people spurning God. o. Bowls = hot oil poured out, ancient method of torture.

You are assuming the rapture of the two witnesses (Revelation 11:12) involves only them, no one else, and you cite no reference (because there isn't one).

The rapture occurs when Jesus descends from heaven, as depicted in Revelation 14:14-16. I see only one reaping. It occurs after the witnesses have died. The dead are reaped first (which includes the two witnesses), after that the living. "Perhaps" means this is apocalyptic literature, hence the...

I invite you to site your reference (two witnesses taken separately from all others). BTW I know where my hernia is, where are my smaller hermenutics???

"Taken up" = rapture: "The dead in in Christ will rise, and we will be TAKEN UP." (1Thessalonians 4:16-17).

If you have a better suggestion *from the Bible* then perhaps you will share it.

IMO: The Bible indicates that Believers are caught up at the "seventh"="last" trumpet, to avoid the bowl judgments. This "rapture" includes the "two witnesses."

IMO: "Last" trumpet = last of the seven trumpets, sounding right before the bowl judgments begin. The rapture then occurs, to spare believers from the bowl judgements.

WPM suggested: <not the rapture> The seventh (last) trumpet signals that the trumpet judgments are at end, and the bowl judgments are at hand. Believers are therefore quickly taken away (rapture) to avoid the bowl judgments. Think of it as a movie theater, intermission before the next show.

WPM explained: <This cannot be the rapture. The seventh sounds after this is completed.> IMO: The two witnesses voluntier to give up their lives for the gospel. God honors them and other deceased believers by resurrecting them first of everyone at the seventh trump (1Thessalonians 4:16,17)...

WPM asked: <rapture in Revelation 11> o. It involves putting the information together. o. Revelation 11:15 "seventh trumpet" is last of seven. o. 1Corinthians 15:12 says "last" trumpet. o. Dead in Christ rise at this "last" trump. o. The dead in Christ rise at the rapture (1Thessalonians...

WPM asked: <What do you mean "perhaps."> o. Two witnesses are caught up in Revelation 11:12 with a LOUD VOICE at the middle of the seven years. o. Believers in 1Thessalonians :16-17 are said to be caught up with the VOICE of the archangel. Seems like a match.

Davy noted: < Pretrib is of the Devil> The great tribulation begins (Revelation 16:1) when Anti Christ (a.k.a the beast) takes his seat in the temple (2Thessalonians 2:24). At that time Jesus descends to a cloud and removes believers (Revelation 14:14-16). This occurs at the midpoint of the...

WPM queried> <rapture...rapture> IMO. o The rapture has two phases: Phase 1: Remove deceased believers from their graves. Phase 2: Remove living believers from the battlefield (Middle East). See 1Thessalonians 4:16. o The two witnesses are perhaps raised in phase 1. o The tribulation in...

The rapture (Jesus descended to a cloud taking up ("reaping") believers) is clearly shown in Revelation 11:12-13, 14:14-16. It is prophesied also in John 14:2-3, 1Corinthians 15:51-53, 1Thessalonians 4:15-17. It is pre-wrath ("seven plagues," Revelation 16:1-21).

I thought I was clear, apparently not. One more time: IMO: o The two witnesses are Enoch and Elijah, both taken to heaven without dying. o The pre-great-tribulation rapture is noted in the following verses. -- John 14:2-3 -- 1Corinthians 15:51-53 -- 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 -- Revelation 11:12...