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Yeah, I know that one, but, in his Gospel, he only provides examples of people who had invalid faith, never actual children of God, who fall away! "If they were of us they would have remained with us"! Why? "I will not lose one" "No one can snatch them out of My hand".

@Lambano Only bc his writings seem to be so different. There are different reasons that could explain that. One, less controversial, would be that he merely emphasizes different things than others. Example: He says "Neither this man nor his parents sinned so that he was born blind, but he was...

I'm asking people who do not accept the conventional meaning of "predestined" (ie, God chose it, made it happen) to share their definition for it. It seems you reject the conventional meaning. What do you think it means instead?

Yup, but I'm playing a game of not reconciling John with the rest of Scripture right now--"What if all I had to go on was John's writings--his Gospel, his Epistles, his Revelation--what would I believe?" I'm seeing things from a different perspective for the moment, to see if it bears good fruit...

I do not deny we will be repaid according to our works, but I think what I'm saying is that trusting God goes ahead of all of our decisions, and empowers us to make the right ones, as Christ says, "Sanctify them in the truth. Thy Word is truth." "You are clean through the Word I've spoken to...

@Lambano Literally, God had to put me through that to get me to believe the truth, because it was torment--He turned the heat up to FORCE me to accept and confess the truth. LOL!

...but if Christ is the Word He teaches, and if He teaches you were always with Him "from the beginning", and He will not lose one, and no one can snatch you out of His hand... wouldn't trusting Christ mean trusting those things? IF He meant those things? lol

So, in your understanding, "predestination" is the conventional meaning of it? And does it give you peace?

1. Yeah, except Jesus says we know how to identify those guys: a bad tree bears bad fruit, and those false prophets were living in immorality, hatred, and all kinds of sin, including boasting (what other reason was there for them to be performing miracles if not for Christ?). 2. I do not know...

Well, if you know God, that's eternal life, and you had to be really one of His sheep to get to that point, and it sounds like John is saying that's a permanent thing--not only forward through time, but even back at the beginning of time, you have, in some sense, always been Christ's, and you...

Is that "predestination" related?

OK I am trying out this "trust" thing. Jesus says, "You were with from the beginning", "In the beginning was the Word..." and "No one can snatch them out of My hand"--dollars to donuts, trust will bear more fruit.

I would be apt to believe this (and there is a lot more substance I could add to the argument), excepting for the fact that it says those who are born of God are not born of the will of man... unless you argue that in order to become a child of God you have to put your will aside and cooperate...

I think that's called "compatibility"? So, does your awareness of God's involvement, and His having more "weight", give you a peace and a confidence? Also, what does that have to do with predestination? LOL

@marks I can't find it right now, but I thought you said predestination gives you confidence about your ultimate destiny (to be conformed to Christ). You said that, right?

Another curious thing, perhaps related to "predestination" (after its conventional interpretation), is Jesus says His "true" disciples had been with Him "from the beginning" (Jn 15:27) The statement is a bit ambiguous: Which "beginning"? John 1 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was...

Saying they're "married to God" is effectively saying they're "God's People"--they were "married", and will be again, just as they were "God's People", and will be again--in the meantime, God has added for Himself another people, to move the Jews to jealousy, and when the Jews return to God...

OK Thanks for sharing.

No, I think there are two Israels--a physical and a spiritual. Some Jews are part of both, some are only part of one... but that's not the topic.

OK. No, I'm saying the basis of their having been "married" to God was their status of having been His People--it's one of the ways God relates to His People, but, in Hos 1, "You are not My people and I am not your God"--what believers are today.