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Where does this say that the beast "kills all refusing the mark"? It looks like that is your assumption. It says he makes war with the saints and overcomes them, but does not say he literally overcomes (kills) all of them. Your doctrine is based purely on assumptions and speculation. If you...

This is so obvious that I'm amazed that anyone believes otherwise. Just another case of people trying to make scripture say what they want it to say.

We have asked them to exegete the scriptures many times at this point and they will not do so. I don't believe they ever will even try. The reason why is clear. They can't. They know that if they try to do so it will expose the folly of their views. All they can do is make claims about what they...

Uh huh. No, really? I didn't catch that the first thousand times you indicated that you believe that. Uh huh. Yes. I already did explain multiple times before and again in post #10 of this thread. Is my post #10 too long for you to read? I couldn't care less if you agree with my explanation...

What in the world are you going on about? For Jesus to return from heaven in the same manner that He ascended to heaven simply means He will return bodily and visibly just as He ascended to heaven bodily and visibly. Reading more into it than that is a case of adding to scripture to make it fit...

Nope. Two references to the same gathering. Your two gatherings theory contradicts a great deal of scripture. What are you basing this on? I can only guess since you never actually exegete any scripture. Lying doesn't help your case at all.

This is a good point. Do they even understand what they're saying? You have to wonder.

Great exegesis there. Wow. Who can possibly argue with this? :rolleyes: To anyone following this discussion, please compare posts 1,320 and 1,325 to this one I quoted from rebuilder (1,324) and think about who is backing up their views with clear scripture and who is not.

Agree. Well said. Jesus coming both with and for His saints at the same time lines up with this passage as well: Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are...

Same here. And I disagreed with other things I heard in church as well. Never. They still have no temple. This is what I try to tell people, but mostly to no avail. Between the wrath described in Matthew 24:15-22, Mark 13:14-20 and Luke 21:20-24a is what Luke called "the times of the Gentiles"...

I truly get a headache when reading the pretribbers' attempts at describing their incredibly convoluted doctrine. It makes my head spin. Is the truth really that complicated? You have people believing in 5 raptures, 3 comings of Christ and other nonsense that is not mentioned anywhere in...

Why would Paul mention the rapture in 1 Thess 4:14-17 followed immediately by a description of His wrath that will come down at His return (1 Thess 5:2-3), but not mention any supposed period of tribulation in between? Did he just forget to mention it? He also doesn't mention this supposed...

No, he's not confusing you with someone else. He's simply not understanding what you're saying, which is common for him.

You shouldn't be so hard on yourself.

Since he won't answer it, I will. The only tribulation of any kind mentioned in that passage is found in 1 Thess 5:2-3 and it occurs upon the arrival of the day of the Lord. It involves "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape". That destruction from which no one will escape on the...

There are not two different raptures there. Since you are the one making this claim, prove it. Your claims mean nothing without backing them up with scripture. So, get to it. Please. I do not. What are you basing that on? Please back up your comments with scripture if you want to be taken...

Why are you lying? I have NEVER said that Jesus returns immediately after what took place in 70 AD. I have already shown you this, but I guess your short attention span kept you from reading what I said. In the parallel passage of Luke 21:20-28 there is a time period that Luke calls "the times...

Translation: You have no answer for my arguments. Thanks for admitting that.

LOL. No, there are not. If that was the case, why is it that Paul only knew of one rapture, which he described in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 and referenced in 2 Thess 2:1 as well? By "rapture", I mean believers being taken off of the earth and gathered to Christ. so I'm only referring to verses...

Obviously. We all know that. But, what do you think the parable in Matthew 22:1-14 is about?