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Hmmm, so this is how you understand those who are still alive at the Lord's coming being "caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air," that angels will have to swoop down and gather us up in their arms? Interesting... You know, Scott, if you don't see it in the text...

I quite often do. <chuckles> Hmmm, disagree on at least two counts: As has been said, first by Augustine, the Old Testament is the New Testament concealed, and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed God said all He meant to say, and meant all that He said. There is no new revelation...

Ohhhh, yes, I'm well aware of the different takes on Paul's words there. <smile> Yes... Well, except for the ones who are still alive on that day, of course. Disagree... How you would back this up might be interesting. But we will go out to meet Him in His return and welcome Him in, as a...

'Imaging'... you mean 'imagining?' It surely does take a vivid imagination, I'll agree with that... <smile> Well, after the final Judgment, yes. <smile> In a certain sense they will "rapture" themselves... although it will not be any kind of seizing, snatching, or taking by force; they will...

Ah, so yes, I agree... except for the "rapture" part... depending on what you think it really is, what (and/or who) is being "seized, snatched, taken by force" (original word 'ἁρπάζω,' transliterated 'harpazó')... and if you think it ~ whatever "it" is, in your opinion ~ is being seized...

Yes, and you and I are two of them... even though we are Gentiles. Or, well, I don't know about you, actually, but I'm guessing you are; I certainly am. But yes, the number of the children of Israel ~ children of the promise ~ are like the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured or...

Okay yeah disagree. <smile> I'll just say that originally... and you know this, I think... Israel was a person (Genesis 33:28). Thank you; grace and peace to you!

I would disagree with this... There is a physical Israel, for sure, the nation-state in the middle east, of course. But within the world ~ the world as a whole, physical Israel included ~ there is only one true Israel, the household of God. And these are the saved. I... think you agree, but...

Don't do it. DON'T DO IT! <smile> Ohhhh... you did it... <smile> Right. But I don't. Only in your opinion. Which you will acknowledge, I guess, but... <smile> Right. And that view is wrong. It's totally misapplied. For the reasons I have been crystal clear about. So my belief in...

Good. And in the context of the discussion that's being had here, that's a total misnomer. a total misattribution of the term. Dude. Everyone here believes in physical Israel, the nation-state on the eastern end of the Mediterranean Sea, whose current Prime Minister is Benjamin Netanyahu...

Hmmm, well that depends on the perspective in which we are talking about the nation of Israel... <smile> ...whose, or Whose? <smile> I agree that they are not "two separate nations," but the whole issue here is conflating man's and God's "nation." <smile> Grace and peace to you, Randy.

Hmmm... This question was not asked of me, I know, but I'm going to speak to it here... I'm having a bit of trouble understanding the question. Maybe if I rephrase it, you can comment on whether you agree or disagree with that rephrasing... if it makes it clearer. I would ask it this way...

Either one takes it literally or he (or she) doesn't; there is no general versus specific. But I do understand the "specific sense" that you speak of, and that's the problem. Well me, too, but the issue is who Israel is. Literally. <smile> Maybe so, but there is no replacement. Of...

Well, in the sense that as Christians we all are raptured ~ now ~ to Jesus, yes. <smile> And we have eternal life now, yes. They don't mean to... <smile> Grace and peace!

Well, not all of natural Israel are chosen, right, WPM? Not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, right? Right, and many have. And thus have become part of God's household, His Israel. Right, this is God's...

Right. Jesus's return will certainly be a rapturous event, though... <smile> ...a true and final 'harpazo,' a seizing, of what is His, in Paul's context in 1 Thessalonians 4. Those who are still alive at that time will go out to meet him, but nobody will be going anywhere, in the sense of...

Right, since Jesus's time on earth, and thus His commission to all of us as recorded by Matthew in Matthew 28:19-20. But that wasn't what I was referring to. It's being spread, and that's by the Spirit through us. Ugh. <smile> There have been many earthquakes, and many quite devastating...

Well, right now, yes, but the millennium, the thousand years, will come to an end, and thus the millennial reign. But of course Jesus's reign will not come to and end... then will be His eternal reign. In the present millennium, yes, and for eternity. Grace and peace!

I'm painting with pretty broad brush strokes, here, but... The "beast of the sea" is a counterfeit of Christ. He is "of the sea," so "arising" out of evil. As such, this beast represents persecuting power, especially the power of a demonized state. The "beast arising out of the earth" is...

And have those things not been happening for the last 2000 years? <smile> I mean if you're still looking for those things, maybe you should... pay more attention to what's going on around you... <smile> Right, it will be sudden, that's for sure. His return. Actually, though, I do think...