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:jest: I’m making a point - :tiphat: King David - to someone who unwisely takes me for a fool. It’s temporary. (The avatar. We’ll see about the condition of the unwise person.)

That’s a wise answer. I, of course, have no idea what you read about him or which of his writings that you’ve read. I presume you were required to read him in school. I was. Of all of the Ante Nicene Fathers I had to read, Origen was easily my least favorite. The Catholics did well in...

Do you think Origen is a heretic? Do you think Origen isn’t a heretic? Are you unsure whether Origen is or isn’t a heretic?

I dread reading Origen. Your link which mentioned his view on the Demiurge brings back Tertullian’s writing against the Valentinians, who loved the Demiurge. Nevertheless, for those who are interested in the history of trinitarianism, Origen is a “must read”. Trinitarianism wouldn’t exist in...

Heb. echad. The Messiah’s Father is the echad elohim of the Bible.

Tertullian is a unitarian. For him to become a trinitarian he would have to convert. Tertullian falls within the transition period of Church history. Tertullian is a unitarian. For him to become a Jewish monotheist he would have to convert. Tertullian is a heretic by the standard of...

The OT and NT writers didn’t write in defense of trinitarianism; nor did they write against trinitarianism.

Tonight’s episode: Moses the trinitarian. * Next week’s episode: Jesus the trinitarian; with cameo appearances by the unitarian writers of the OT and NT * Church history is more than sufficient to dispel the notion that the OT writers and NT writers were trinitarians, but not if it isn’t taken...

My sister-in-law worked for a few years at just such a place. (I think it was called Passages.) Some where there voluntarily. Some were there because court ordered. It was a harrowing experience for her. And for most, if not all, of them.

“Hey, Rocky. Want to see me pull a rabbit out of a hat? Nothing up my sleeve [and nothing between my ears.] Presto! Ooh! No doubt about it. I gotta get a new hat.”

Many years ago I spoke with someone online who self-identified as a quadritarian. I don’t know if that term sounds attractive to you but it seems, at least on the surface, like it would be a good fit for you.

Origen is the more important figure to trinitarianism; more important than Tertullian (and the Greek Apologists). Later theologians will borrow from and build on both of them; retaining what is “good” and rejecting what is “not good”. But like Tertullian, Origen too has been deemed a heretic.

Tertullian (and other early apologists) is much closer to Arius than he is to Athanasius; closer to Arius and to Athanasius than he is to Jewish monotheism. I’m reading Against Marcion now. Tertuallian explicitly writes against consubstantiality in this work. For Tertullian, the Father is the...

It’s been well said that the road from Jerusalem to Nicaea wasn’t a straight one. Trinity minus co-equal and co-eternal persons is no Trinity at all. It’s non-trinitarian. Trinity is read into scripture, not out of it. The question is whether it is valid or not.

They weren’t trinitarians.

“Abandoning the view of the Apologists and of Tertullian who conceived the Logos to be a person only from the time of creation, Origen declared the Logos to have been a person from all eternity.” (J.L. Never, A History of Christian Thought, Vol. 1, p. 108) What kind of trinitarian is it who...

Scripture written by those of one theology were developed by those who didn’t hold that theology in the early centuries of Christianity, producing a new and different theology. The phases of that development are seen in the writings of the early Church Fathers. People like Tertullian are...

You didn’t get it from me. I suspect you got it from failure to recognize and acknowledge that some Jewish monotheists believe Jesus (himself a Jewish monotheist) is the Messiah and some don’t.

See the Tyndale translation. Or the Geneva Bible. Or any of the other English translations translated from Greek prior to KJV.

“[The Early Apologists] did not yet think in terms of a co-equality between Father and Son.” (J.L. Neve, A History of Christian Thought, Vol. 1, p. 107) Yet you list them as trinitarians @RLT63. What kind of Trinity is it that has persons who aren’t co-equal? What kind of trinitarian is it...