“...they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly:”

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

VictoryinJesus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2017
9,683
7,932
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Posting Hebrews 11:13-16 in relation to a question about no longer being strangers or foreigners. “These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. [14] For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. [15] And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. [16] But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”

I’ve struggled with Ephesians 2:12-22 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: [13] But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. [14] For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us ; [15] Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; [16] And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: [17] And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. [18] For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. [19] Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; [20] And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone ; [21] In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: [22] In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

For an habitation of God...now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly:

...Luke 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

...any input here on this “better country, that is, an Heavenly ?”
 

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
...any input here on this “better country, that is, an Heavenly ?”
"country" is strickly a scribal add, for one...
Hebrews 11:16 Lexicon: But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.

which when you click the link, "country" magically disappears! The point being "cointries" are Incorporated, ok

the Son of Man has no place to lay His head

which also speaks to the op i guess
 

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
we spend a lot of time plowing our own ground when we are called to shepherd others, i guess. me anyway. So i'm sitting here wondering where i'll sleep tonight, instead of accepting some opp to serve others, maybe.
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,624
21,724
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
"country" is strickly a scribal add, for one...
Hebrews 11:16 Lexicon: But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.

which when you click the link, "country" magically disappears! The point being "cointries" are Incorporated, ok

the Son of Man has no place to lay His head

which also speaks to the op i guess

The antecedant is in verse 14. Its not like country isn't what God is talking about here. Once again, context is king.

Much love!
 

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
The antecedant is in verse 14. Its not like country isn't what God is talking about here. Once again, context is king.

Much love!
Hebrews 11:14 Lexicon: For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own.
Strong's Greek: 3968. πατρίς (patris) -- of one's fathers, fatherland

"countries" are actually very recent human innovations i guess, and even scribed into the second link, but i suggest reading with other eyes than those who have accepted Two Masters, wadr.

What's wrong with staying in the more accurate "context" imo, and just saying "homeland" or something? Well, bc then your country cant be "one under God" right? Let's admit "one nation under..." is a sick joke right off the bat, ok. (Ask any Native American)
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,624
21,724
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
"The best cure for Christianity is reading the Bible" SClemens
Absolute silliness!

I'm curious, what is it about you that you self-identify as "Christian"? What does that actually mean to you? If nothing can be known, then why identify with a particular faith?

Much love!
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,624
21,724
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Hebrews 11:14 Lexicon: For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own.
Strong's Greek: 3968. πατρίς (patris) -- of one's fathers, fatherland

"countries" are actually very recent human innovations i guess, and even scribed into the second link, but i suggest reading with other eyes than those who have accepted Two Masters, wadr.

What's wrong with staying in the more accurate "context" imo, and just saying "homeland" or something? Well, bc then your country cant be "one under God" right? Let's admit "one nation under..." is a sick joke right off the bat, ok. (Ask any Native American)
Is there some confusion over what this verse is saying?

I mean, aside from the obvious confusion when one ascribes to the notion that there is no knowable truth?
 

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,997
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
...any input here on this “better country, that is, an Heavenly ?”
What could be better than Heaven and the Heavenly Jerusalem? Absolutely nothing.

God has designed, constructed, and established the New Jerusalem in Heaven, and that will be the eternal home of the saints. It is a *country* in the sense that it is a cubic city which is actually the size of a continent -- 1500 miles x 1500 miles x 1500 miles. And it will also serve as a heavenly body after the sun, moon, and stars, vanish away.

upload_2019-10-1_15-53-53.png
 

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
can hardly wait to see it with your Two Eyes, huh pEnoch
Absolute silliness!
ha well so you say, but wadr bro dont bet the farm on that ok. Its a perspective, an opinion, and by a respected bard at that? I think ol Sam was making a comment on Christian Mithraism, or maybe the washing the outside of the cup that "Christianity" promotes, something like that? Or maybe on Absolutes, dunno. yeh, maybe that, mostly
I'm curious, what is it about you that you self-identify as "Christian"? What does that actually mean to you?
ill try to reply to this, but you do get that "Christian" had a diff meaning to them than us now, yeh? What we call "zionist" now i guess. So i have to interpret, then interpret again, as i dont subscribe to the mithraist pov any longer, either. Iow my reply is going to be mush to you prolly.

But being as how i have held all of those beliefs at one time or another, the sheer weight of habit and time, basically, are what keeps me identifying nominally as a Christian, although i realized a while back as evil and self-centered as i am the last thing i need to be doing to fwd the kingdom is proclaiming that to strangers. Anyway, i now seek to be a christ, so that also keeps me there. Dunno how i might plant a spike in the erets myself...but i dont plan to die of old age
whatever Yah wills tho.
If nothing can be known, then why identify with a particular faith?
faith as a noun, arg lol. marks i never said "nothing can be known," i "know" all kinda stuff. Actually in my case literally stupid amounts of virtually useless information. Only all relevant to herenow, today, now, right now, see, all the existence that most everyone else studiously avoids? Like, like the plague? About yesterday or tomorrow though, yeh, got no clue. Dont know the past, dont know the future. So, i ID with "Christianity" while i am here, bc Christians (Romans), and most everywhere else i am just mark
Is there some confusion over what this verse is saying?

I mean, aside from the obvious confusion when one ascribes to the notion that there is no knowable truth?
none whatsoever for me marks, but then i am aware of the satanic nature of Country, Incorporated.
Wouldnt "stomping grounds" or "home turf" or even "family plot" be more in keeping with the intent there, iyo? "Country" has two meanings for us now, yeh? City/Country and the other one? So my objection is to the second, mostly, reading the second into the first, which the first i am down with, but the second is the one that will manifest Pledges if Allegiance, see.
(Take a knee)
Absolute silliness!

I'm curious, what is it about you that you self-identify as "Christian"? What does that actually mean to you? If nothing can be known, then why identify with a particular faith?

Much love!
i id as Christian bc the River has dried up, marks, and the kings of the East are crossing it, and coming into your country as we speak. They will come as servants i guess tho, so imo dont be looking for crowns and robes and whatnot i guess. (Isaiah, i think, for servants)
 
Last edited:

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,803
2,523
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Posting Hebrews 11:13-16 in relation to a question about no longer being strangers or foreigners. “These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. [14] For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. [15] And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. [16] But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”

I’ve struggled with Ephesians 2:12-22 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: [13] But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. [14] For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us ; [15] Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; [16] And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: [17] And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. [18] For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. [19] Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; [20] And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone ; [21] In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: [22] In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

For an habitation of God...now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly:

...Luke 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

...any input here on this “better country, that is, an Heavenly ?”

There's only 2 different dimensions of existence taught in God's Word, this earthly one we live in, and the heavenly one where God and the angels live in. The abode of the wicked called hell is also in that heavenly dimension, in a place of separation like Jesus showed in Luke 16.

When Jesus returns, the heavenly dimension is going to be opened up to all, on earth. Death will be swallowed up in victory (Isaiah 25). Heaven is coming here, on earth, in stages. When Jesus returns, the things of this present world will be burned off the earth (2 Peter 3:10-12).

Per Genesis 2, we were shown that God's Garden of Eden was once upon this earth, God's River running out of the Garden to feed four other rivers upon the earth. Two of those rivers still exist on earth today. That River is to return to earth during Christ's future Millennial reign (Ezekiel 47).

Thus the "better country" of Hebrews 11 is actually about the future Kingdom of the heavenly and earthly joined together right here on earth with the full Godhead present here on earth with the saved.
 
  • Like
Reactions: VictoryinJesus

VictoryinJesus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2017
9,683
7,932
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There's only 2 different dimensions of existence taught in God's Word, this earthly one we live in, and the heavenly one where God and the angels live in. The abode of the wicked called hell is also in that heavenly dimension, in a place of separation like Jesus showed in Luke 16.

When Jesus returns, the heavenly dimension is going to be opened up to all, on earth. Death will be swallowed up in victory (Isaiah 25). Heaven is coming here, on earth, in stages. When Jesus returns, the things of this present world will be burned off the earth (2 Peter 3:10-12).

Per Genesis 2, we were shown that God's Garden of Eden was once upon this earth, God's River running out of the Garden to feed four other rivers upon the earth. Two of those rivers still exist on earth today. That River is to return to earth during Christ's future Millennial reign (Ezekiel 47).

Thus the "better country" of Hebrews 11 is actually about the future Kingdom of the heavenly and earthly joined together right here on earth with the full Godhead present here on earth with the saved.

That is the question...they saw it yet afar off...reaching forward to, yearning for something more excellent. is it not now nigh? Everything you described already is...His throne is within the tabernacle that “grows” a habitation for God. and the River comes out of that throne ....Living water flows out of them. Trees planted of the Lord....trees of righteousness and for the healing of the Nations. Never to be plucked up or removed. The Heavenly is going to swallow up the earthly is that which is within being revealed when He comes to be revealed in glory, His saints revealed with Him ...but heaven is already on earth. ...with the full Godhead present the Head and body of Christ in He never leaves nor forsakes but ...dwells and abides WITH them.
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,803
2,523
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That is the question...they saw it yet afar off...reaching forward to, yearning for something more excellent. is it not now nigh? Everything you described already is...His throne is within the tabernacle that “grows” a habitation for God. and the River comes out of that throne ....Living water flows out of them. Trees planted of the Lord....trees of righteousness and for the healing of the Nations. Never to be plucked up or removed. The Heavenly is going to swallow up the earthly is that which is within being revealed when He comes to be revealed in glory, His saints revealed with Him ...but heaven is already on earth. ...with the full Godhead present the Head and body of Christ in He never leaves nor forsakes but ...dwells and abides WITH them.

Well, no, that Kingdom is not literally manifested here on earth yet, nor can it be until Jesus returns as written. His 1st coming wasn't to reign over the nations with the prophesied "rod of iron". That is for His 2nd coming, which is still future to us today. As of today His Church on earth only represents His spiritual kingdom, but it is not His Kingdom of the world to come when He will literally reign over all peoples along with His elect, on earth.
 

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,997
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Thus the "better country" of Hebrews 11 is actually about the future Kingdom of the heavenly and earthly joined together right here on earth with the full Godhead present here on earth with the saved.
How can anything on earth be better than the Heavenly Jerusalem which is a city with twelve foundations? So we have a very serious misunderstanding here.

For he [Abraham] looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God [the New Jerusalem]. (Heb 11;10)

16 But now they [the OT saints] desire a better* [country], that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. [the New Jerusalem] (Heb 11:16)
*κρείττονος (kreittonos) = a better [one] but not necessarily *a country*

Please note some important things here:

1. The word *city* is repeated in both verses. That eliminates *country*.

2. The word *country* is in italics (hence bracketed), which means it was not in the original Greek text, but was inserted by the translators and may be disregarded.

3. This issue was all addressed in one of my previous posts, but was conveniently ignored by all.

4. All the OT saints (including Abraham) are now in the New Jerusalem (Heb 12:22-24). That will be their eternal heavenly home, where Christ has prepared mansions for His saints (John 14:1-3).

5. Of course Christ will establish His eternal Kingdom on earth after His second coming, but His saints will reign with Him, not live on earth.
 

farouk

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2009
30,790
19,232
113
North America
Posting Hebrews 11:13-16 in relation to a question about no longer being strangers or foreigners. “These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. [14] For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. [15] And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. [16] But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”

I’ve struggled with Ephesians 2:12-22 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: [13] But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. [14] For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us ; [15] Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; [16] And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: [17] And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. [18] For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. [19] Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; [20] And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone ; [21] In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: [22] In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

For an habitation of God...now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly:

...Luke 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

...any input here on this “better country, that is, an Heavenly ?”
What a great passage! :)

We need to keep looking up; indeed, Hebrews 12.2 exhorts us to keep 'looking unto Jesus'.
 
  • Like
Reactions: VictoryinJesus

VictoryinJesus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2017
9,683
7,932
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What a great passage! :)

We need to keep looking up; indeed, Hebrews 12.2 exhorts us to keep 'looking unto Jesus'.

Makes me think of Philippians 4:8-9 in keep ‘looking unto Jesus’

“Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. [9] Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: farouk

farouk

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2009
30,790
19,232
113
North America
Makes me think of Philippians 4:8-9 in keep ‘looking unto Jesus’

“Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. [9] Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.
I love Philippians! :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: VictoryinJesus

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,803
2,523
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
How can anything on earth be better than the Heavenly Jerusalem which is a city with twelve foundations? So we have a very serious misunderstanding here.

For he [Abraham] looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God [the New Jerusalem]. (Heb 11;10)

16 But now they [the OT saints] desire a better* [country], that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. [the New Jerusalem] (Heb 11:16)
*κρείττονος (kreittonos) = a better [one] but not necessarily *a country*

Please note some important things here:

1. The word *city* is repeated in both verses. That eliminates *country*.

2. The word *country* is in italics (hence bracketed), which means it was not in the original Greek text, but was inserted by the translators and may be disregarded.

3. This issue was all addressed in one of my previous posts, but was conveniently ignored by all.

4. All the OT saints (including Abraham) are now in the New Jerusalem (Heb 12:22-24). That will be their eternal heavenly home, where Christ has prepared mansions for His saints (John 14:1-3).

5. Of course Christ will establish His eternal Kingdom on earth after His second coming, but His saints will reign with Him, not live on earth.


You're confusing today's present condition of the earth with that heavenly Jerusalem that is waiting to come down... to this earth, as written...

Rev 21:2
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem,
coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
KJV
 

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,997
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Rev 21:2
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem,
coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
KJV
Please note that it says "out of heaven" but does not add "to the earth". Do you know why? Because it will become a heavenly body to replace the sun (which will be gone). The New Jerusalem will give light to the earth, therefore it cannot possibly be located on the earth itself.
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,803
2,523
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Please note that it says "out of heaven" but does not add "to the earth". Do you know why? Because it will become a heavenly body to replace the sun (which will be gone). The New Jerusalem will give light to the earth, therefore it cannot possibly be located on the earth itself.

There's only one other place that holy city can descend. The only other dimension is this earthly. It is descending to earth. Christ's elect shall rule on the earth, as written (Rev.5:9-10). There's also a multitude of verses in the Psalms to show where the city of God will be established in final. You'd think the Ezekiel 40 through 48 chapters would be enough proof, but men's doctrines some people follow instead keeps them in confusion, and that's the doctrines you're following with the Dispensationalists. It is they who wrongly teach we reign with Jesus from heaven.

Rev 5:9-10
9 And they sung a new song, saying, 'Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests:
and we shall reign on the earth.
KJV