1 Corinthians 9: 20-21

[farouk]

Makes me think of: 1 Peter 3:1 KJV
Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;

‘...they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives’
To remove Paul as a wolf no one should take seriously is to destroy what is ‘without the word be won by the conversation’? Ephesians 2:2-3 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: [3] Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Ephesians 4:20-22 But ye have not so learned Christ; [21] If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: [22] That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

2 Corinthians 1:10-12 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us ; [11] Ye also helping together by prayer for us, that for the gift bestowed upon us by the means of many persons thanks may be given by many on our behalf. [12] For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.

James 3:13 seems to agree: Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

1 Peter 2:12 seems to agree: Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Galatians 1:23-24 But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed. [24] And they glorified God in me.

1 Peter 3:15-16 seems to agree: But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: [16] Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

@VictoryinJesus I was just thinking today that aside from asserting principles and points of view, a lot of problems can be avoided if one shows patience and humility in ongoing inter-personal relationships.

 

[amadeus]

1Co 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
1Co 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.


How do you hear this?

The problem I suppose with Saul/Paul is that we may have seen that he is a man, who really... like all of the rest of us came up short in his own walk with God. Not everyone has seen or admits that! Only Jesus walked as a man always sinless.

Paul became as a Jew to gain them. How far should we go along that pathway? There are in our land/nation today probably quite a few who tickle the ears of people in order to draw or keep them and to keep the money put into the church coffers... and guess who is the one who mostly controls the destination for that money? The ear ticklers perhaps?

But the limit? On the one hand, let us all wear blue colored tops because that is what they [the Jews or the gentiles] do and they tend to like everyone wearing blues tops.

And, on the other hand, let us all call our next door neighbors dirty names and throw garbage in their yards because that is what they [the Jews or the gentiles] do and they tend to like everyone who does as they do.

Paul may at times be slow to do it, but he does warn us about himself in places, sometimes directly... sometimes indirectly:

"Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ." I Cor 11:1

"For now we see through a glass, darkly;..." I Cor 13:12

In this last one, Paul is certainly, I believe, including himself in the pronoun, we! This is an admission, is it not, that his vision, that is the vision of the man Paul, was impaired as is all of our visions, when we have not yet seen the "face to face", which Jesus made a possibility for men, including Paul?

Paul describes himself as a Pharisee, a very strict follower of them, but he also approaches the people who have not embraced the laws which the Jews [Hebrews, natural Israelites or offspring of Jacob] supposedly espoused. He approaches the lawless ones with words which not everyone can understand or receive... but perhaps a few?

"Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:" Acts 17:22-27

Paul had the right words for the few who were really hungry. God had given the man those words, in spite of the man's own weaknesses and even failures. Have any of us ever been weak or have we failed in our walk with God? It is at times hard to see Paul and to understand him. Should we not sift carefully through what he wrote that is available to us and men call scripture?

Watch for the carnal man who came up hard against Barnabas, Barnabas, the brother one who stood by him early on when most of the brethren believers would not trust him. See how hard they, Paul and Barnabas, stood against each other in the case of John Mark [Acts 15]. Where was humility and mercy and love in that case? We need to remember that both Paul and Barnabas were men.

Has anyone who ever wrote something as inspired to do so by God then subsequently mess up? Moses certainly comes to mind. Paul was not faultless, but he certainly wrote some good things which were from God:

"And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." II Peter 3:15-16

So then walk toward the Jews and walk toward the gentiles so as to approach them and to converse with them, but not too close and don't take up all of their ways in order to win them for in doing so we may instead lose ourselves.

 

[Ziggy]

If Jesus is the Word that God sown in the earth...
Who is sowing the tares?

Who is the enemy?

Now Eve come to the tree that God told them not to touch. It looked good. Like it looked like good fruit..
But when they bit into it, it was poison.

Not that the fruit was poison, but that they disobeyed God. They didn't love him enough and they went after another.
That another, drew them away.

I know Paul sounds good, his writings are sweet... But I won't follow him. I will follow the Lord.
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Paul is not a god, but many thought he was, and some still do.
Now in the next verses that come up, I hear the protests.. I hear them.. but they never once mentioned the name of Jesus.


Act 14:8 And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked:
Act 14:9 The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed,
Act 14:10 Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked. (in the name of.....nope)
Act 14:11 And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men.
Act 14:12 And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker.
Act 14:13 Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people.
Act 14:14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,
Act 14:15 And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:
Act 14:16 Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways. (No mention of Jesus)
Act 14:17 Nevertheless he left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.
Act 14:18 And with these sayings scarce restrained they the people, that they had not done sacrifice unto them.

And here:
Act 13:6 And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Barjesus:
Act 13:7 Which was with the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; who called for Barnabas and Saul, and desired to hear the word of God.
Act 13:8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation ) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.
Act 13:9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him,
Act 13:10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
Act 13:11 And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.
Act 13:12T hen the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord.

Seems like that's what happened to Saul on the way to Damascus..
But what did Jesus do?

Luk 9:51 And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,
Luk 9:52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
Luk 9:53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
Luk 9:54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
Luk 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
Luk 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

I don't recall Jesus causing anyone harm except maybe som swine.

Just saying..
Thank You
Hugs

 

[Marymog]

1Co 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
1Co 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

How do you hear this?

Hi Ziggy,

Paul indicated that he himself was not under the Law and only made it appear as if he were in order to win converts from the Jews (1 Cor. 9:20-21).

Bible study Mary

 

[Ziggy]

Hi Ziggy,

Paul indicated that he himself was not under the Law and only made it appear as if he were in order to win converts from the Jews (1 Cor. 9:20-21).

Bible study Mary

Thank you
It's that deception that bothers me.
Jesus never made himself out to be something he wasn't just to gain a few or many or all for that matter.
He spoke plainly.

Hugs

 

[Marymog]

Thank you
It's that deception that bothers me.
Jesus never made himself out to be something he wasn't just to gain a few or many or all for that matter.
He spoke plainly.

Hugs

Hi Ziggy,

God himself seems not have been above engaging in a little deception from time to time. To ruin Ahab the Lord became a lying spirit in the mouth of Ahab’s prophets. Later, speaking through the person of Ezechiel to certain of the elders of Israel, God makes it clear that if the prophet appears to have been deceived in some matter, this deception is of divine origin.

Maybe Paul simply meant that he would use their own beliefs and ways to show them the truth? So to a religious Jew he would use the law to speak to them, to a gentile he would use his conscience and culture?

Bible study Mary

 

[Ziggy]

Hi Ziggy,

God himself seems not have been above engaging in a little deception from time to time. To ruin Ahab the Lord became a lying spirit in the mouth of Ahab’s prophets. Later, speaking through the person of Ezechiel to certain of the elders of Israel, God makes it clear that if the prophet appears to have been deceived in some matter, this deception is of divine origin.

Maybe Paul simply meant that he would use their own beliefs and ways to show them the truth? So to a religious Jew he would use the law to speak to them, to a gentile he would use his conscience and culture?

Bible study Mary

Thank you

HUGS

 

[charity]

'Paul, an apostle,
(not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ,
and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead )
(Gal 1:1)

Hi @Ziggy,

As an Apostle of the risen Christ, by the will of God, Paul was Christ's mouthpiece. One who was 'sent' to preach the word He was given, and not to represent himself, but Him Who called Him. He did not choose his 'calling', it was given to him by his risen Lord.

I am sorry to hear what you say concerning him, and hope you will soon have a change of heart.
Within the love of Christ our Saviour
Our Lord and Head.
Chris

 

[Ziggy]

'Paul, an apostle,
(not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ,
and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead )
(Gal 1:1)

Hi @Ziggy,

As an Apostle of the risen Christ, by the will of God, Paul was Christ's mouthpiece. One who was 'sent' to preach the word He was given, and not to represent himself, but Him Who called Him. He did not choose his 'calling', it was given to him by his risen Lord.

I am sorry to hear what you say concerning him, and hope you will soon have a change of heart.
Within the love of Christ our Saviour
Our Lord and Head.
Chris

It's working out..
See, Paul has to go through some things.
And we all get to go through things together.
No one is immune.
And unless you put youself in his shoes, you won't understand how it is so easy to be manipulated.
The world is very devious. And while we like to kiss it's butt, it makes us vulnerable to temptations.
In the end Paul comes out alright..
But he has to go through a lot of suffering to get there. And I'm probably that thorn in his flesh he talked about.
I see him flipping and flopping.. and really struggling with the flesh thing.
Paul was sent to suffer.
Pro 19:19 A man of great wrath shall suffer punishment: for if thou deliver him, yet thou must do it again.
Act 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

Nobody wants to check this suffering out.. everybody wants to be immune.

Listen:
Act 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

Now either Christ fulfilled all that needed suffering.. or there is more.. in the which Paul feels he needs to fill up that which is lacking.

Which is it?
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

We are still to suffer because apparently Christ didn't fulfill that suffering..
So I'm suffering with Paul...
believe me you..
and this is not a pleasant journey.
But in the end..
God wins.
Thank You Chris
HUGS